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FW: Loving Kindness Meditation-adding to Karens post
by Lynda C via OE 14 Nov '16

14 Nov '16

Thank you, Karen, for your thoughtful earth rise witness. About that same time, I was at my wonderful chair/floor gentle yoga class and participated in a very timely post-election meditation at the beginning of the class. The classes for seniors are called OWLS (Older, Wiser, Living Strong). This meditation was powerful and I need to practice It over and over. By popular request, our instructor sent it out to us. She referred us to Metta Meditations for other meditation guides. Thought I would share it with you and our community. Lynda Loving Kindness Practice (Donald McCown, 2010) Taking your usual posture for meditation... feeling your body where it makes contact with the support beneath you, and settling in... perhaps centering yourself by making the breath the focus of your attention... Feeling the breath moving and the body sitting... And when you are ready, bringing to mind someone that it is easy to feel loving kindness towards... someone from the past or present, perhaps a child, or a pet... an easy, simple relationship may be best... Allowing yourself to hold them in your awareness perhaps seeing them in your mind's eye or perhaps feeling a sense of them in your heart... can you feel a sense of loving kindness towards them? As you hold them in your awareness, beginning to send wishes of loving kindness to them .... Silently repeating these phrases May you be peaceful and happy May you be safe from harm May you be as healthy and strong as you can be May you live with ease of well-being ... When you're ready, allow the image or felt sense of your chosen one to fade, and seeing how it is for you to be the one who receives loving kindness ... resting here in your own kind regard, sending yourself these well wishes, allowing yourself to take in these phrases, to say them silently for yourself ... May I be peaceful and happy May I be safe from all inner and outer harm May I be as healthy and strong as I can be May I live with ease of well-being ... Maybe it seems artificial and stilted to say such things to yourself, for yourself... maybe you're not feeling loving kindness in this moment - and that's OK whatever you're feeling, you can hold the intention of loving kind-ness... offering it from wherever you are... however you are now .... So practicing once more... noticing how you may be drawn towards this practice or drawn away from it... May I be peaceful and happy May I be safe from harm May I be as healthy and strong as I can be May I live with ease of well-being... And now exploring the experience of moving loving kindness outward again, bringing to your heart and mind someone to whom you would like to send loving kindness and with the same intention you have been directing towards yourself, offering these wishes... May you be peaceful and happy May you be safe from harm May you be as healthy and strong as you can be May you live with ease of well-being... (Long pause). Holding them in your awareness and sending loving kindness with these phrases... or phrases of your own... May you be peaceful and happy May you be safe from harm May you be as healthy and strong as you can be May you live with ease of well-being. .. (Long pause). Return to the breath from here, or if you have more time, continue growing the size of the group until you include all sentient beings in the Universe

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11/15/16: Standing Rock Day of Action. Resistance will not fade away. Join us.
by Ellie Stock via OE 13 Nov '16

13 Nov '16

By all measures, the nation is at a historic momentof resistance to President Trump's fossil fueled agenda -- and themovement is growing stronger by the day. Now, Indigenous leaders are calling on us to take tothe streets one week after the election to demand that PresidentObama’s Army Corps of Engineers and the incoming Administration put astop to the Dakota Access Pipeline. We need to showPresident Obama and the incoming President Trump (it really hurts tosee those two words next to each other) that this resistance movementwill not fade away. TheArmy Corps is rumored to be very, very close to a decision whether toapprove or deny the final permit needed to complete construction --that’s why we must act now, and act strongly, to make sure the permitis rejected. The Army Corpsfast-tracked the Dakota Access Pipeline without proper consultation,and now bulldozers are approaching Standing Rock. But withcoordinated, massive demonstrations across the country, we’ll make itclear that we will not allow the Obama Administration or the incomingpresident to sacrifice Indigenous rights, our water, or our climate. Water protectors in Standing Rock have withstoodbrutal police repression, freezing temperatures, and bulldozersdestroying their sacred land -- yet they’re standing strong anddetermined. Will you join a bold, powerful action onNovember 15th that honors this urgent fight? Resistance to fossil fuel projects is risingeverywhere. Almost a year ago we stopped the Keystone XL pipeline;now, an even bigger movement is rising up to stop Dakota Access. Thisis one of the most courageous stands against a fossil fuel projectthis country has ever seen, and solidarity actions are popping upeverywhere -- targeting Army Corps offices, banks financing thepipeline, and other Federal buildings. Horrible images of people being tear gassed,attacked by guard dogs, and having their teepees torn down are notjust remnants of this country's ugly past -- this is happening rightnow, and it's unconscionable. We can’t alter history, but together wecan change the future. We know that elections and individuals alone don’tcreate change -- movements do. That’s why we’ll continueto fight until native sovereignty is honored, Indigenous rights areprotected, and our communities' water and climate matter more thanfossil fuel profits. Let’s get to work. Find an action near you onNovember 15th. RL Miller, for Climate Hawks Vote PS I'll be at the Los Angeles action in front of the Army Corps'office. Last Friday I participated in a rally in front of a local G4Sbranch office - G4S is the private security outfit guarding the DakotaAccess pipeline. We build our movement by showing up andparticipating. Paid for by Climate HawksVote, http://www.climatehawksvote.com and not authorized by anycandidate. Contributions to Climate Hawks Vote are not deductible forfederal income tax purposes. This email was sent to carletonstock(a)aol.com. To stopreceiving emails, clickhere. You can also keep up with RL Miller on Twitter.

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listserv
by Jaime R Vergara via OE 13 Nov '16

13 Nov '16

Tim, remind me how I am subscribe and I will narrow it down to one. TY Jaime wangzhimu2031 earthrise consciousness, a gift; earthbound commitment, my choice yesterday, appreciate; tomorrow, anticipate; today, participate! in all, celebrate!

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Do not be conformed
by Frank Cookingham via OE 13 Nov '16

13 Nov '16

I am being blessed in these difficult times by a Tillich sermon on Romans 12:2a. Go to page 52, chapter 12. http://www.mercaba.org/SANLUIS/Filosofia/autores/Contempor%C3%A1nea/Tillich… Peace is yours, Frank Cookingham

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Re: [Oe List ...] [earthrise] Earthrise Witness
by via OE 13 Nov '16

13 Nov '16

I, too am grateful for the conversation Karen began. Here's how I propose to deal with this time. It's Dr. Vernon Sylvest's formula for healing, first sent to me by Kathleen Jones from Hong Kong in 1999: I begin with gratitude for everything that has led us to this moment, our world, our society, my personal blessings and especially for this, our community. What a wall of wonder I could create, enumerating my blessings. These blessings flow from the Love that has been from the beginning, which surrounds me in every moment of my life and which will receive me at its end. I watch for, pray about and work to release my own negative emotional and mental attitudes that, in Karen's words, prevent me from hearing Mother Earth's cries. Steve started a list of attitudes to release: hatred, fear, greed. ignorance. I look within and find anger and judgment of others. I've found myself using my age as an excuse for sloth. (It doesn't hurt to smudge at this point.) I really wanted to see HRC sworn in as the 45th president. All the rage I've felt at being treated as less than fully human went into that desire. Yet even more than that, I desire to experience Love. I commit to ridding myself of the patterns that block me from receiving Love. This commitment has to be greater than any of my other commitments in life. I fix an image of myself receiving all the blessings Love and Mother Earth have to offer me: good health for this last gift of time; happiness at being who, where, what, how I am; success in my board member roles with Lindsay Art Association and Sequoia Center for Holistic Studies; prosperity enough to help the causes I believe in; continued loving relationships with my family. And a few new clothes. Finally, I celebrate with a song or dance or drum march around the house. I dab on a bit of delicious essential oil. I go forth to love, waiting and watch for the incoming Age of Aquarius, the return of the Great Mother. Karen, I'll never forget our outing to the Masonic Museum when we were on the San Jose School District's Learning Lab. Real mummies and everything! Love and blessings, Jann P.S., Seth, I know you've been traveling, but would love to know what you're up to now. Blessings on your journey. -----Original Message----- From: 'Sandra Conant' sandy(a)mesoamerica.com [earthrise] <earthrise-noreply(a)yahoogroups.com> To: Seth Longacre <sethlongacre(a)gmail.com> Cc: opossum2 <opossum2(a)comcast.net>; Earthrise <earthrise(a)yahoogroups.com>; Karen Snyder <karen.snyder10(a)gmail.com>; Colleague Dialogue <Dialogue(a)wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sun, Nov 13, 2016 6:29 am Subject: Re: [earthrise] Earthrise Witness Many thanks for these thoughtful reflections. They push me to think through my own feelings and to define what I feel are the implications of this sad, and possibly tragic, turn of events. Thanks so much for writing, Sandy Sent from my iPad On Nov 12, 2016, at 9:36 PM, Seth Longacre sethlongacre(a)gmail.com [earthrise] <earthrise-noreply(a)yahoogroups.com> wrote: Thanks Karen and Steve. I'm with you guys. On Nov 13, 2016 10:39 AM, "opossum2(a)comcast.net [earthrise]" <earthrise-noreply(a)yahoogroups.com> wrote: Karen: I think there is a lot of wisdom in what you say. I'm not much on religious allusions, but here's a thought I had earlier today: In the book of Revelation, St. John talks about the four horsemen of the apocalypse: War, Famine, Pestilence and Death. I think we are up against a new four: Hatred, Fear, Ignorance and Greed. So we need to meet hatred with love, fear with confidence, ignorance with wisdom and greed with caring. I'm willing to give it a try. Steve Rhea Houston, Tx. From: "Karen Snyder karen.snyder10(a)gmail.com [earthrise]" <earthrise-noreply(a)yahoogroups.com> To: "Earthrise" <earthrise(a)yahoogroups.com>, "Colleague Dialogue" <Dialogue(a)wedgeblade.net> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 8:19:46 PM Subject: [earthrise] Earthrise Witness It is hard to be so wrong. Wrong about how much frustration, anger and hatred people are carrying in their being. I have seen this in other nations; but never believed it was so true of this nation. Pointing a finger at others being the problem reveals three fingers pointing back to me. I want to repent, to turn away, and forge another direction for the sake of those with pent up emotions and deep pain, but I don’t know how. I am searching for what would make a difference. When I turn to organizations that lead in the issues I feel are important, the language used is ‘continuing the FIGHT’ … ‘fighting on’ and I have no motivation for fighting. The reaction of ‘an eye for an eye’ seems so archaic. What are the lessons I/we can learn from the messages of this election? How can I/we embody love and care for the deep divisions that have been starkly revealed? I want to learn and turn to creating paths that ensure a healthy earth. Our angst is preventing us from hearing Mother Earth speak to us of the crisis all humans face as we use up the earth’s resources and pollute our water and air. My prayer this evening is that I/we pause, that I/we take stock of our missteps, and that I/we embody a new spirit of care for each other and the earth. In peace, Karen __._,_.___ Posted by: "Sandra Conant" <sandy(a)mesoamerica.com> For additional information, including guidelines and schedule, go to: http://www.geocities.com/earthrisegroup/webpage.html VISIT YOUR GROUP • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use __,_._,___

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Adding to Karen's post
by James Wiegel via OE 13 Nov '16

13 Nov '16

HOW MOVEMENTS BUILD: FIVE LESSONS FROM GRACE LEE BOGGS From my experience as a Movement activist, I have learned some important lessons: 1) A Movement begins when large numbers of people, having reached the point where they feel they can’t take the way things are any more, see some hope of improving their daily lives and begin to move on their own to bring about change. 2) If you want to know what the Movement is about, you need to keep your ear close to the grassroots to hear the “Why” questions which people are asking. For example, during and after World War II, when black folks had acquired a new Self-Confidence from working in the defense plants and fighting overseas, they began asking, “Why do white folks treat us this way?” with a new urgency. In the 1960s when white flight to the suburbs made blacks the majority in Detroit, people began asking “Why are all the political leaders in the city still white?” Today the main questions I hear people in the black community asking are “What is happening to our young people?” and “How are we going to make our livings when jobs are being eliminated by hi-tech and export overseas?” These basic survival questions are very different from those which were being asked in the 1950s and 1960s. 3) A Movement begins to assume momentum when people begin exploring visionary answers to the questions being asked at the grassroots and engage in practical activities which can be replicated without huge bureaucracies. In the early stages of a Movement, the visionary answers being explored usually strike most people as too radical or too impractical. If they don’t, they are probably not profound enough to build a Movement. 4) To create a Movement, people of widely differing views and backgrounds need to come together, surmounting their ideological differences. But you must also be prepared for these differences to surface and create splits after the Movement succeeds or declines. 5) The struggle does not end with victory or defeat because new contradictions emerge, requiring new ideas and new paradigms which are usually resisted by those who were deeply involved in the past struggle or who have benefited from its success. They tend to be locked in the past, not recognizing that even if the goals of the previous struggles were not completely achieved, new more challenging contradictions have emerged out of the struggle and from the continuing development of the society. In other words, they are not thinking dialectically. (Excerpt from Grace Lee Boggs, “Towards A New Vision and a New Movement,” presented at the University of Michigan Law School Symposium, October 13-14, 1995.) Jim Wiegel 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353 Tel. 011-623-936-8671 or 011-623-363-3277 jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com "We are no longer living in an era of change. We are living in a change of era." Francis Upcoming public course opportunities click here http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10 For online registration go to http://www.top-training.net The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, 1-4 pm, starting again on Sept 5th at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses > On Nov 12, 2016, at 15:43, Sarah H. Buss via OE <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: > > She will fight, but she will not succeed until she does her homework and address the international scene and becomes president. She certainly would have my vote > Sarah > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 12, 2016, at 2:09 PM, Len Hockley via OE <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: >> >> Helpful.. >> >> Len >> After an election that shocked pollsters, disrupted financial markets, and devastated Democrats, Elizabeth Warren has weighed in with her first official response -- and a diagnosis for moving forward. >> Watch Elizabeth Warren's speech here. Then, please share your thoughts about it. >> >> >> >> Watch Elizabeth Warren's speech here. Then, please share your thoughts about it. >> >> Thanks for being a bold progressive. >> >> -- Keith Rouda, PCCC organizer >> >> >> Want to support the Warren wing? Senator Elizabeth Warren says, "When PCCC members donate millions in small-dollar donations and make millions of phone calls for progressive candidates, leaders in Washington, they take notice." Chip in $3 here. >> >> FOLLOW US: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Paid for by the Progressive Change Campaign Committee PAC (www.BoldProgressives.org) and not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee. Contributions to the PCCC are not deductible as charitable contributions for federal income tax purposes. >> >> Have you moved? Want to update your email address? Click here. >> >> You can unsubscribe from this mailing list at any time. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OE mailing list >> OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net > _______________________________________________ > OE mailing list > OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

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Shhhhh . . . . DO NOT FORWARD THIS TO TIM WEGNER
by James Wiegel via OE 13 Nov '16

13 Nov '16

I have it on good authority that Tim's birthday is coming up on the 19th. Since he does so much for all of us, shouldn't we plan some sort of a SURPRISE celebration for him? Send cans of Spam, or . . .? Jim Wiegel 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353 Tel. 011-623-936-8671 or 011-623-363-3277 jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com "We are no longer living in an era of change. We are living in a change of era." Francis Upcoming public course opportunities click here http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10 For online registration go to http://www.top-training.net The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, 1-4 pm, starting again on Sept 5th at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses > On Nov 12, 2016, at 20:29, Seth Longacre via Dialogue <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: > > Thanks Karen and Steve. I'm with you guys. > > >> On Nov 13, 2016 10:39 AM, "opossum2(a)comcast.net [earthrise]" <earthrise-noreply(a)yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> Karen: >> >> I think there is a lot of wisdom in what you say. I'm not much on religious allusions, but here's a thought I had earlier today: In the book of Revelation, St. John talks about the four horsemen of the apocalypse: War, Famine, Pestilence and Death. I think we are up against a new four: Hatred, Fear, Ignorance and Greed. So we need to meet hatred with love, fear with confidence, ignorance with wisdom and greed with caring. I'm willing to give it a try. >> >> Steve Rhea >> >> Houston, Tx. >> >> From: "Karen Snyder karen.snyder10(a)gmail.com [earthrise]" <earthrise-noreply(a)yahoogroups.com> >> To: "Earthrise" <earthrise(a)yahoogroups.com>, "Colleague Dialogue" <Dialogue(a)wedgeblade.net> >> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 8:19:46 PM >> Subject: [earthrise] Earthrise Witness >> >> >> >> >> It is hard to be so wrong. Wrong about how much frustration, anger and hatred people are carrying in their being. I have seen this in other nations; but never believed it was so true of this nation. Pointing a finger at others being the problem reveals three fingers pointing back to me. I want to repent, to turn away, and forge another direction for the sake of those with pent up emotions and deep pain, but I don’t know how. >> >> >> >> I am searching for what would make a difference. When I turn to organizations that lead in the issues I feel are important, the language used is ‘continuing the FIGHT’ … ‘fighting on’ and I have no motivation for fighting. The reaction of ‘an eye for an eye’ seems so archaic. What are the lessons I/we can learn from the messages of this election? How can I/we embody love and care for the deep divisions that have been starkly revealed? >> >> >> >> I want to learn and turn to creating paths that ensure a healthy earth. Our angst is preventing us from hearing Mother Earth speak to us of the crisis all humans face as we use up the earth’s resources and pollute our water and air. My prayer this evening is that I/we pause, that I/we take stock of our missteps, and that I/we embody a new spirit of care for each other and the earth. >> >> In peace, >> >> Karen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __._,_.___ >> Posted by: opossum2(a)comcast.net >> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (9) >> >> Have you tried the highest rated email app? >> With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage. >> For additional information, including guidelines and schedule, go to: >> >> http://www.geocities.com/earthrisegroup/webpage.html >> VISIT YOUR GROUP >> • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use >> . >> >> >> __,_._,___ > _______________________________________________ > Dialogue mailing list > Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

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Re: [Oe List ...] Change of policy on non-member posts and other news from Tim
by Susan Fertig via OE 12 Nov '16

12 Nov '16

I just got a Facebook friend request from Gordon Harper, so presumably his Facebook page has been hacked, and presumably all if us who were his Facebook friends are targeted somehow. I just got got a sequence of 5 duplicate emails from Facebook each with the same stats on our church Fb page. If everyone is getting weird stuff it may have started with Facebook. Susan Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid On Nov 11, 2016 9:04 PM, Lynda C via OE <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Tim, I seem to be one who is being inundated with spam the last few days. At first it was just random ads, which I was trying to get unsubscribed from. But they were asking for my address to unsubscribe me. Then the porn started. I'm now getting twice as many even tho I mark them as junk or say block the sender. Any advice? I am using our new email that we added when we moved to Davidson. Lynda860(a)outlook.com. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 11, 2016, at 7:46 PM, Timothy Wegner via OE <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: > > Executive summary of below - make sure if you post to the list you are using the correct email (the one you subscribed.) > > 1. Many of you have multiple emails addresses, and fairly often folks forget which one is subscribed to the list and send a post from a different email. Not to worry, I would get alerted and then let the message through. I have been providing this service for many years. > > Recently some massive email spam sender has gotten our list address and our list is getting sent scores of spam messages a day. Not a problem for you, but a big problem for me. I have to look through a big list of spam for those aforementioned attempts at posting from you folks before sending the spam messages off to oblivion. > > What I have decided to do is simply have the list discard all attempts at posting from non-subscribed emails. No work for me, and still no list spam for you. But this means if you attempt to post from the wrong email, it simply won't work and I will not be alerted and will not be able to rescue you as I have been doing for lo these many years. > > If you need to be able to post from other email addresses than your subscribed email, just let me know, and I can make it work. > > 2. The problem with gmail that we had recently in which gmail users were being summarily unsubscribed appears to have been cured by some changes I made. If anyone is still having problems (or new problems) let me know. > > The world goes on, and is still as broken as ever, as are we, mere creatures within the broken world, but Grace still abounds. Hallelujah! > > Tim > _______________________________________________ > OE mailing list > OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

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Fwd: Elizabeth Warren responds to Trump election
by Len Hockley via OE 12 Nov '16

12 Nov '16

*Helpful..* *Len* After an election that shocked pollsters, disrupted financial markets, and devastated Democrats, Elizabeth Warren has weighed in with her first official response -- and a diagnosis for moving forward. Watch Elizabeth Warren's speech here. Then, please share your thoughts about it. <http://act.boldprogressives.org/survey/2016_warren_aflcio_postelec/?source=…> Turn on images to see a screen capture of Elizabeth Warren speaking to the AFL-CIO." <http://act.boldprogressives.org/survey/2016_warren_aflcio_postelec/?source=…> Watch Elizabeth Warren's speech here. Then, please share your thoughts about it. <http://act.boldprogressives.org/survey/2016_warren_aflcio_postelec/?source=…> Thanks for being a bold progressive. -- Keith Rouda, PCCC organizer ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Want to support the Warren wing?* Senator Elizabeth Warren says, "When PCCC members donate millions in small-dollar donations and make millions of phone calls for progressive candidates, leaders in Washington, they take notice." Chip in $3 here <https://secure.actblue.com/contribute/page/pccc_fightback/?refcode=e161111_…>. *FOLLOW US:* Follow on Facebook <http://pccc.me/1iyQqB8> Follow on Twitter <http://pccc.me/1RqhwGF> Follow on Instagram <http://pccc.me/20oQLbK> Subscribe on YouTube <http://pccc.me/1k671Oo> Paid for by the Progressive Change Campaign Committee PAC (www.BoldProgressives.org <http://www.boldprogressives.org?akid=35926.1129092.pbrUqJ>) and not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee. Contributions to the PCCC are not deductible as charitable contributions for federal income tax purposes. Have you moved? Want to update your email address? Click here <https://act.boldprogressives.org/me/update/?t=4&akid=35926.1129092.pbrUqJ>. You can unsubscribe from this mailing list at any time. <http://act.boldprogressives.org/cms/unsubscribe/unsubscribe/?akid=35926.112…>

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Spam discussion off topic please
by Timothy Wegner via OE 12 Nov '16

12 Nov '16

I know I started this because I mentioned spam in my heads up to folks to be mindful to use the correct email when posting. This is not aimed at anyone in particular, but me me suggest (again) that discussions of spam be off topic. The reasons are: 1. Some of our folks are overwhelmed by list traffic as it is and unsubscribe if it gets too much. (By the way the cure for this is to get your email program to sort list messages to their own folder.) 2. As a community we are not very expert about spam, and the discussion is usually not high quality. 3. Spam discussion dilutes attention from other topics that concern our community specifically. Do feel free to ask me (or others) about spam topics off list. Certainly ask me if you suspect some spam is actually being sent via the list. Just ask me directly, no cc to the list. Tim

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