July 2013 - OE - lists.wedgeblade.net

David and Burna Dunn Reflect
by Ken Fisher 07 Jul '13

07 Jul '13

Dear Colleagues, It is possible to imagine that Michael May could have interviewed any of you evoking a similar impact. For me, I had the opportunity of once more bringing to consciousness the impact of O:E formation in my daily life; internal and external. I was enlivened by the following interview with Burna and David; not because it had any 'special' message, but because it allowed me to have a fresh reconnection with my own 'basics' such as daily contemplation and prayer. For a vibrant 'next' Christianity, Ken Begin forwarded message: From: "Interior Mythos Journeys" <info(a)storywarrior.net> Date: June 26, 2013 2:41:08 PM EDT To: wanaki(a)frontenac.net Subject: David and Burna Dunn Reflect If you're having trouble viewing this email, you may see it online. Share This: Ken, Experience Order Ecumenical reflections with David and Burna Dunn by clicking here. Thank you. The Interior Mythos Journeys Team Interior Mythos Journeys Nurturing the Infinite Addiction info(a)storywarrior.net www.storywarrior.net info(a)storywarrior.net www.storywarrior.net 210 E. Gilbert Drive | Bloomington, IN 47408 This email was sent to wanaki(a)frontenac.net. To ensure that you continue receiving our emails, please add us to your address book or safe list. manage your preferences | opt out using TrueRemove®. Got this as a forward? Sign up to receive our future emails. email marketing by Interior Mythos Journeys powered by

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The Landfillharmonic Orchestra
by PSchrijnen＠aol.com 06 Jul '13

06 Jul '13

All is possible.... THE LANDFILL ORCHESTRA http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=UJrSUHK9Luw Paul Schrijnen 13 Bloemfontein Avenue London W12 7BJ +44 7973 206 766 skype: paulus.schrijnen ____________________________________ From: PSchrijnen(a)aol.com To: luisa.violine(a)hotmail.com Sent: 17/04/2013 03:18:56 Malay Peninsula Standard Time Subj: The Landfillharmonic Orchestra THE LANDFILL ORCHESTRA http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=UJrSUHK9Luw Paul Schrijnen 13 Bloemfontein Avenue London W12 7BJ +44 7973 206 766 skype: paulus.schrijnen ____________________________________ From: meadce(a)aol.com To: pschrijnen(a)aol.com, stefan.schrijnen(a)accenture.com, chiaretta13(a)yahoo.de, maxschrijnen(a)hotmail.com, pschrijnen85(a)googlemail.com Sent: 17/04/2013 02:11:39 Malay Peninsula Standard Time Subj: Fwd: [hsotherinfo] FW: The Landfillharmonic Orchestra THE LANDFILL ORCHESTRA http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=UJrSUHK9Luw

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7/04/13, Spong: JUNE 26, 2013, A GREAT DAY FOR AMERICA
by Ellie Stock 04 Jul '13

04 Jul '13

HOMEPAGE MY PROFILE ESSAY ARCHIVE MESSAGE BOARDS CALENDAR JUNE 26, 2013 A GREAT DAY FOR AMERICA I was surprised at how elated I felt on June 26 when the Supreme Court handed down its two historic decisions affecting gay and lesbian people. The first decision mandated federal recognition of gay and lesbian couples in states that permit same-sex marriage by declaring the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) to be unconstitutional. The second reopened the door for same sex marriage in California by refusing to consider the appeal from the court that had declared Proposition 8 to be unconstitutional. Impressive and, to some, as startling as those decisions were, the court in actuality took only baby steps toward justice by leaving the nation in a patchwork of conflicting practices in regard to the rights of same-sex couples. On the Proposition 8 decision they showed no great courage by allowing that proposition to go down on a technicality. This was hardly the sweeping and courageous change that was shown by the Warren Court in 1954 with its 9-0 desegregation opinion in the case of Brown v. the Board of Education. When these decisions were announced, however, the immediate reality was and is that the right of people to marry whomever they love was established, and that this nation will be forever different. There will be no turning back. Surely within a brief span of time, no more than five years at most, the patchwork pattern these decisions have left will disappear and marriage equality will be universal in this country, yes, even in Texas and South Carolina. One of the things that helped to make this victory so compelling and ecstatic for me came when I listened to the reactions of the defeated voices. To our shame as members of the church, so much of that negative reaction came from Christian leaders. Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York called June 26 “a tragic day for America.” The Rev. Dr. Albert Mohler, the fundamentalist president of the Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, called it “a sad day for America.” The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops said “the court got it wrong.” Evangelist Pat Robertson opined that Justice Kennedy must have gay law clerks working for him and that God would soon send something drastic upon this country because of these rulings. All of these responses broadcast loudly that their negativity had been defeated. The political response from the far right was also loud and predictable. Republican Representative Michelle Bachman fulminated; other Republican House members proclaimed that such a change should have come, not from the nine people on the court, but from a majority of the voters. These Representatives seemed not to recognize that in our democracy basic human rights are guaranteed by the constitution. They are not decided by a vote of the majority. One wonders where Justice Clarence Thomas would be today if the rights of black people had been determined by a voting plebiscite rather than by the courts. It was interesting to listen to Tea Party members castigating the “liberal” decisions of the Supreme Court, whose majority was appointed by conservative Republican presidents: two by Ronald Reagan, one by George H.W. Bush and two by George W. Bush. On that court today also sit six Roman Catholic Justices, two of whom voted to recognize same-sex marriage. These reactions convinced me that the decision of the court was greater and more far-reaching than I had at first fully understood. As this wave of euphoria then floated over me I became quite nostalgic. The battle for acceptance and justice for the gay community has seemed like a long one and in that battle there have been both heroes and casualties. I thought of people like the Rev. Jimmy Creech, a Methodist minister serving in Omaha, Nebraska, who was removed from the Methodist Ministry by his Conference for presiding over the blessing of two gay couples in his church, one in 1997 and one in 1999. How wrong those Methodist leaders look today. They punished their prophet. I thought of the Rev. Janie Spahr, a Presbyterian minister, who has been hounded, harassed and finally punished by her church for living in a relationship of commitment with her partner and for acting in the cause of gay justice. Janie was in touch with truth. Synod Presbyterian leaders were not. I thought of the Rev. Paul Woodrum, who was the first priest to confront me about my prejudice against homosexual people. When I discovered near the beginning of my career as a bishop that he lived with his partner in the rectory of the church, I informed him that since I could not allow an unmarried heterosexual couple to occupy a rectory, I could not allow him and his partner as a homosexual couple to do so either. Prejudice sometimes masquerades as “evenhandedness.” Paul responded to my pious words by saying “The heterosexual couple has a choice: they can get married anytime they choose. Neither my Church nor my State has been willing to give that choice to me.” That was the comment that drove me to study sexual orientation with some doctors at the Cornell Medical Center in New York City, a study that turned my attitude, my life and my career around. In that study I became convinced that sexual orientation is a given, not a chosen, aspect of life. It is like gender, skin color and left-handedness. One cannot be judged moralistically because of what one is. This seemed so obvious to me on the other side of my prejudice. I realized then that I did not choose to be heterosexual. I also did not choose to be white, male or right-handed. Armed with this conversion of my mind and heart, my life had to follow and I took on the prejudice against homosexual people as my own cause and that work became a major focus in my career. My campaign began with a charge to the people of the Diocese of Newark in 1984 to study “changing patterns in family life.” That sounds innocuous enough today, but the changes I asked them to consider was having this church bless the sacred commitments of gay and lesbian people. Their recommendations, when reported out in 1986, called on our clergy and congregations to give to gay and lesbian couples “the same recognition and affirmation, which have nurtured and sustained heterosexual couples, including appropriate liturgies, which recognized and blessed such relationships.” In 1986 this was a ground-breaking statement. It was the first time a unit of a major Christian church had put itself on the line for the full inclusion of gay and lesbian people. To support this initiative of our diocese, I wrote a book entitled Living in Sin? A Bishop Rethinks Human Sexuality, which appeared in book stores in 1988. This book has been credited with sparking the debate on gay rights in American churches. It called for all Christian Churches to develop liturgies for the blessing of same sex unions, to recover the meaning of “betrothal” and to offer it liturgically to young adults when they decide to live together outside the bands of matrimony, and for churches to develop liturgical services to recognize the death of a marriage, to be used when divorce occurs. When that book came out, my life was destined never to be the same. Those ideas put me into the category where the word “controversial” would be forever attached to my name in both the religious and secular press. While that debate was still raging I acted once again on December 16, 1989, to ordain the first openly gay priest, living with his male partner in a publicly-acknowledged, committed relationship. I did this with the full support of all the decision-making bodies of my diocese. This prophetic act set off a massive wave of public and ecclesiastical negativity. Our presiding bishop, Edmond Browning, handed me and my diocese an official “letter of disassociation.” I was told that I had violated “the collegiality” of the House of Bishops. My wife and I then took our case across America speaking on radio, television, to the print media and in public addresses. We were spat upon as we walked through a crowd of demonstrators into a church in La Jolla, California. We were set upon and physically threatened by demonstrators in Rockford, Illinois, led by the Rev. Fred Phelps of Topeka, Kansas. I received sixteen death threats that were quite specific. Abusive mail and telephone calls poured into my office. The students at my own seminary invited me to speak to them on this subject, while the faculty boycotted the evening in protest. When one’s mind is convinced of the rightness of an action, one’s heart, one’s will and one’s life has got to follow. To hide in some safe haven of acceptable moderation is not an option if integrity is to be served. This battle in my church was tense and difficult, but attitudes were changing. We were heralding the birth of a new consciousness. Today, in 2013, the leaders of my church greeted the decision of the Supreme Court with excitement and approval. My former seminary now has a lesbian faculty member. Two openly homosexual bishops now serve my church with competence. When I retired as the Bishop of Newark in 2000 we had in our diocese 35 out of the closet gay and lesbian clergy serving churches, thirty-one of them living in publicly acknowledged partnerships. They were a powerful witness to the people of our diocese and to the state of New Jersey. I was and am enormously proud of each one of them. Now the smoke of battle is clearing away. The victory is obvious. Gay and lesbian Christians are fully included in the life of my church and their claim to full citizenship in this nation has now been extended to them by the Supreme Court. There is no doubt in my mind that the struggle was worth the sacrifice. We have witnessed a new understanding of what it means to be human receive cultural affirmation. Justice and human dignity have been extended to one more group of people who were once marginalized and rejected by human prejudice. I rejoice in this day as a citizen of the United States. As a Christian I rejoice that the promise of Jesus to all people recorded by the Fourth Gospel: “I have come that they might have life and have it abundantly,” has now been guaranteed to our homosexual brothers and sisters by my country and affirmed by my church. June 26 was a great day for America and let it be said by this Christian leader, it was an even greater day for the cause of Christ. ~John Shelby Spong Read the essay online here. Question & Answer Jean Ruffin, via the Internet, writes: Question: I greatly admire your writings and find them very helpful to me in understanding how it is possible to be a Christian in this day and age. I have a question, however, that intrigues me. I have just read a wonderful book about the 16th century heretic, Michael Servetus. It is entitled: Out of the Flames by Lawrence and Nancy Goldstone. Servetus was burned at the stake by John Calvin for being an anti-Trinitarian. I was struck by how modern (and appealing to me) the beliefs of Servetus sounded and how much that seemed to me like what I understand that you believe. I was also surprised to learn that his early followers started what became the Unitarian Church. Do you consider yourself somewhat like the Unitarians? Answer: Dear Jean, Servetus was a great reformation leader. He was a “heretic” only to those who condemned him. To accuse a person of heresy assumes that the truth is actually known and that the one who makes the heresy charge actually possesses it. I think participants on both sides of that equation dangle between being ignorant and being idolatrous. They are ignorant because they think they know what ultimately cannot be known, namely the nature of God. They are idolatrous because they have identified God with a definition of God produced by the limited human mind. In effect these people have bound God inside human words and concepts. They have created God and think that their creation is God. That is the meaning of idolatry. Trinitarians defined God as a Trinity. Unitarians objected to that definition and insisted that God is a unity. That is a debate in which few people engage today and this rhetoric of the past seems strange to modern ears. I do not believe that the holy God can ever be defined by anyone. All any of us can ever really do is to define our own human experience of God. There is a vast difference between God and my experience of God. I have great admiration for the Unitarian-Universalist Church. I have been invited to lecture in Unitarian churches across this country. When I taught at Harvard Divinity School in 2000, several of my pre-ordination students were Unitarians. I think that all but one of them are now pastors in Unitarian-Universalist’s churches today. They were among my most talented students and I deeply appreciated my opportunity to know them. I am, however, quite content to remain in the Episcopal Church and to define myself primarily as a Christian, even a Trinitarian Christian. I am sometimes embarrassed by some parts of my church. The bishops of the Church of England, the mother church of us Episcopalians, seem to me to be quite often caught up in unbelievably silly positions - -women may be priests, but not bishops; homosexuals may be cathedral deans, but not bishops; homosexuals may get married, but they have to remain celibate. Periodically the Anglican Communion produces frontier thinking bishops, who are castigated and opposed by the church hierarchy in their lifetimes, only to be claimed and appreciated within a generation after their deaths. I think particularly of my mentor, Anglican bishop and New Testament scholar, John A. T. Robinson. I would laugh at all of these positions if I did not understand the hurt that is visited by them on so many. When I realize that, I am more prone to weep than to laugh. I do want my church always to allow and to encourage rigorous theological debate and that cannot happen if anyone suggests that the truth of God has already been received and codified. The great gift and witness of the Unitarian-Universalist tradition is and has been that they engage without fear the theological issues of the day. Servetus was one of the great pioneers of that tradition and the Unitarians keep the torch of theological learning alive at the congregational level. John Shelby Spong Announcements At ProgressiveChristianity.org, we have over 1500 resources for your evolving faith? Like this one: INTERDependence Day- a Full Service Liturgy Check them out today! Any questions or concerns, please contact us at support(a)johnshelbyspong.com or 503-236-3545. Copyright © 2013 ProgressiveChristianity.org, All rights reserved. You are receiving this email because you have a membership at our website. Our mailing address is: ProgressiveChristianity.org 3530 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Unit 1 Portland, OR 97214 Add us to your address book

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OE songs
by Jaime R Vergara 04 Jul '13

04 Jul '13

Thanks, Jack. I knew we had the list of titles and songs somewhere! (Kept giving away my copies whenever I skipped town.) Just heard Kenny G's rendition of Autumn Breeze which was the music to Hai Ou's HDP. I was on a bus from Chengdu to Kangding in Sichuan. I burst into song, of course. Delighted the University students who found someone they could practice their oral English with j'aime la vie Yesterday, appreciate; tomorrow, anticipate; today, participate. In all, Celebrate!

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Fwd: OpEd Thursday, July 4 from Jaime
by Jaime R Vergara 04 Jul '13

04 Jul '13

Learned not to apologize for what I post from WMJ. Del Morrill just posted a YouTube of Kate Smith doing "God Bless America", which I cannot watch. If only for the reason of free press, I am grateful to be an American citizen, though the systemic communality in China is impressive. The following is in the July 4 edition of the Saipan Tribune. I lifted a lot from one of Gene Marshall's take on megalomania and civilization. I tailored it to my audience. Sending it to the listserv with the same caveat as other ones: if curious, welcome; not, see you at the bend. (Probably easier to digest than Yes, we scan! Jaime Patriotism Francis Bellamy, a Baptist pastor in 1892 wrote: I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the republic for which it stands,one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. He considered including equalityand fraternity into the Pledge butknowing that equality for women and African Americans were still a majority"no-no", he was more intent to get the state superintendents ofeducation in the Committee that approved the pledge, than he was in furtheringhis political cause. Upon acceptance, edited to read "my Flag and to the Republic", it was recitedfor 30 years in American classrooms. In1923, it was changed to "the Flagof the United States", and ayear later, "of America" wasadded to "the United States", until 1954, when to "one Nationindivisible" was added the phrase "underGod". The United StatesCongress started uttering the pledge in 1942. The pledge has become a statement of patriotism. Love of country has also become a staple serving of civilizations’megalomaics. Alexander the Great whostarted our social familiar is known as AlexandroMegos, “megos” meaning “great”, with the word as the root of what isobserved as an obsession in the exercise of power, a mental delusion aboutone’s power or importance, megalomania. Alexander might be considered as one of competent greatness alongwith the Caesars Julius and Augustus. Cleopatrawas a conniving female counterpart who orchestrated the killing of her lesscompetent brother so she could rule. In our time, Mao Zedong, with his portrait gracing all currentrenminbi bills, is considered in many quarters as a very competent megalomaniacwho united a disparate and desperate China from the ravages of rapaciousWestern Civilization and westernizing Meiji Japan. Though we grew up being partial to Pat Boone over Elvis Presley, wewere prejudiced against ‘tricky Dick’ Nixon who he is a better Republican thanhis current counterparts. His megalomaniaenergized and brought him down. FDR wasa remarkable presence whose achievements in domestic reorganization andsuccessful waging of war deserve a place in the pantheon of exceptionalAmerican citizens. His five terms inoffice, comfort with power and wielding it, a talent for mobilizing population,he may be counted among the successful “good kings” in the history ofcivilization as opposed to the “bad kings” we like to label Caligula, Hitler,Stalin and Idi Amin! Male or female, forgood or ill, famous wielders of power illustrate the personal mode we callmegalomania in a social ambience that encourages it we call “civilization.” Ordinary members of a civilization honor this megalomania, identifywith it, and derive personal satisfaction in supporting it. Its face today is patriotism. It values competition over cooperation, withpower wielding preference to the male, female counterparts acting and dressingup in definite masculine overtones. Itpromotes social ladder climbing rather than encouraging an appropriate choiceof vocation. There is megalomania in the passion for excessive wealth and inachieving celebrity and notoriety of all kinds. Civilization and megalomania go together. When there is a top-down socialstratification, megalomania resides at its core. While we claim to honor democracy, wetolerate the Koch brothers’ influence on one side, and the mystique of BillGates and Steve Jobs on the other. Our current political challenge is not to find another megalomaniacof any variety from FDR to Obama who will save us, but to work together tobuild something better than the socially stratified civilization of ourfamiliarity. One of my heroes is recorded to have said: You know that inthe world the recognized leaders rule over subjects, and great ones make othersfeel the weight of authority. That is not the way with you: among you, whoeverwants to be great must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must bethe willing slave of all. I once used the same image to illustrate my career choice in aninterview with a Saipan psychiatrist. She saw the first part and ignored the second. I was reported to my ecclesiastical superioras having megalomaniac tendencies! Self-reference to the "peons" of megalomania are always read as self-serving. I was tickled but my Bishop was not amused. Megalomania after all is historically aprerogative of the episcopacy. Iesu and his enlightened followers exemplifieda new kind of power, that of servanthood, and solidarity with others who allowcreative and democratic use of consciousness, talents, and opportunitieswithout resorting to the allure of megalomania. The Pledge will be widely repeated this Fourth of July in America. On the train ride to Chengdu this weekend, Inoticed the preservation of old structures with the cross in front, or onsteeples. Having foresworn theinstitutional company of the followers of the Galilean carpenter, with theirunending edifice complexes, perhaps, it is time to influence the messagecontent within those structures. “One nation under God, indivisible” is the current reading of thePledge. That would be understood as the paramountpower of servanthood by the shores of Galilee. I think I will be patriotic today! j'aime la vie Yesterday, appreciate; tomorrow, anticipate; today, participate. In all, Celebrate!

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Re: [Oe List ...] OE songs
by David Walters 04 Jul '13

04 Jul '13

During the Summer Program in '70 Lyn Dressler brought a large recording machine to the Great Hall on the Westside and recorded a number of songs being sung of several days. Then hean LP album of them. I can not get to the one I bought at the present time. I f some one else has one maybe we could get some body like Marshall Jones to make CD from it and let our folks in Chicago turn it into a fund raiser. -David Walters --- jackcgilles(a)gmail.com wrote: From: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles(a)gmail.com> To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] OE songs Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 21:33:34 -0500 Here is the location to the title index and the lyrics of every song we ever sang in the Movement. Jack <http://wedgeblade.net/gold_path/data/meth/101695.htm> On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:52 PM, Thomas Morrison <2tjmorrison(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hello! > > We have an LP of movement/RS-1 songs, but that is it. > I think we have paper copies of the Other World songs. > > If any of this is useful, let me know. > Possible glitch: we are on vacation and will not be home for 2 weeks. > > Tom Morrison > Local Church Eperiment person > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 10:08 AM, frank bremner <fjbremner(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> I don't know of any complete and comprehensive collection. In the >> Philadelphia House in 1979-80 we copies of two LPs - mainly Other World and >> cabaret-era songs. As I remember the singing was more on the pole of "a >> perfect choir" rather than on the pole of "gutsy stuff". >> >> To me this would be a good project for an international team. A set of CDs >> coverering various eras and places would be great. I still sing Stuart >> Hampton's adaptation of Blues in the Night, about trekking across South >> Australia (sleeping in the car in the back blocks of Eyre Peninsula). And >> the Murrin Bridge song, where "singing" is a transitive verb - no >> preposition(s) required. >> >> Maybe the CDs could mix solos, duets, quartets, small groups, jazz, show >> songs and many other treatments. Different treatments of the same song. >> How many variations on Gershwin's Summertime or Cohen's Hallelujah have your >> heard? Cohen, my hero, sitting alongside Nick Cave, another hero, and >> writing/singing out of the Book of Job. Which of our OE/EI/ICA songs would >> get a John Farnham treatment? (Who? Google his name for his version of >> Help, and The Voice, the song that revived his career.) >> >> I'm personally grateful to Mary Warren Moffat et al for deepening my >> appreciation of The Great American Songbook. Kay Lush did point out that >> these songs did not necessarily connect with "Third World" villagers, in >> places there was and is a mixture of music. Australian indigenous music >> goes from opera singers Harold Blair to Yothu Yindu to Deb Mauboy (in the >> movie Shine) to Motown (the movie The Sapphires) to Rolf Harris >> interpretations like Sun Arise and so on. >> >> Back to those first two images. Like comparing the first concerts, >> according to the newspapers, of the Rolling Stones US tour of late 1979 >> (early 1980), which were pretty perfect and boring , with later concerts >> where the guys improvised, had a good time, and the fans were much more >> appreciative. I saw Cliff Richard and the Shadows a few years back - a 50th >> anniversary tour - and they obviously still enjoyed performing despite >> having their arrrangements and choregography down pat. Ditto for The >> Beachboys last year. Further back, a Kronos Quartet concert was great >> because they coped with breaking violin strings etc - much warmth and >> humour. Peter Brook (The Empty Space - a great and important book!) wrote a >> long time ago (early '70s) of how important it is that the audience >> participates in the performance. >> >> Cheers >> >> Frank Bremner >> >>> From: wmbailey(a)charter.net >>> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 18:49:33 -0400 >>> To: oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >>> Subject: [Oe List ...] OE songs >> >>> >>> Is there a music CD of Order songs available ? >>> G&P >>> Marianna >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OE mailing list >>> OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >>> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OE mailing list >> OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net >> > _______________________________________________ > OE mailing list > OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

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OE songs
by Marianna Bailey 04 Jul '13

04 Jul '13

Is there a music CD of Order songs available ? G&P Marianna

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Re: [Oe List ...] Further thoughts on the future - the easy one
by David Walters 02 Jul '13

02 Jul '13

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Re: [Oe List ...] Further thoughts on the future - the easy one
by LAURELCG＠aol.com 02 Jul '13

02 Jul '13

As I recall, the OE listserv was started to finish the Vail conversation (or accountability/absolution) on the issue of abuse and neglect of some of our children in the Order. To me, this OE list is more about "family" matters. The notices of completion of life, challenges such as illness, people moving, children's news. The Dialogue is for ICA business, for people who don't know and don't need to know the internal history. I appreciate having them both, but usually address my e-mails only to OE. Jann McGuire

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Further thoughts on the future - the easy one
by Herman Greene 02 Jul '13

02 Jul '13

The easy issue I raised was what is the difference between the OE and Dialogue listservs, given (if it is true) that the people on the two lists are mostly the same and there are a lot of double postings. You might respond by starting with these statements: - I am on both listserves because . . . - I am on only one listserv, the ______ listserve, because . . . - I agree, there is no difference and they should be combined. Here's why . . . - The OE listserv is for ____________ and the Dialogue listserv is for __________ At my advanced old age (as I am reminded on these lists), I of course no that things get into history for different reasons and then remain after those reasons no longer apply. The OE listserve was initiality to address concerns related to sexual abuse of the emerging generation in the order, but this is not longer addressed on that listserve. In my view the OE listserve is more about the personal lives of former members of OE, but then when I joined the Dialogue listserve I found that it concerned almost the same thing. By the way, I'm not expecting the listserves to be combined, simply because (because what I'm not sure). Still some may find this an interesting topic. I'm inclined to go back to OE only because I joined these conversations to stay in touch with those dear colleagues with whom I shared an important part of my life. Herman -- __________________________________________________ Herman F. Greene 2516 Winningham Road Chapel Hill, NC 27516 919-942-4358 (ph & fax) hfgreenenc(a)gmail.com

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