July 2013 - OE - lists.wedgeblade.net

Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Request for Prayers
by PSchrijnen＠aol.com 13 Jul '13

13 Jul '13

I just phoned Joe, and he tells me that he is feeling fine, that the surgery is routine, and that he is busy with his lens business, travelling in Europe and Asia. And that the tumor has to be removed from his lung. He was driving in or to New Orleans. We pray for his recovery and good health and wish him well, Paul Paul Schrijnen 13 Bloemfontein Avenue London W12 7BJ +44 7973 206 766 skype: paulus.schrijnen In a message dated 13/07/2013 18:01:42 GMT Daylight Time, Pris(a)TeamTechPress.com writes: Our colleague, Joe Thomas has surgery scheduled this Tuesday to remove a tumor from his lung. Please pray for his recovery and good health. Priscilla H Wilson Prairie Village, KS Pris(a)TeamTechPress.com www.teamtechpress.com _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

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Groundbreaking thinking
by Herman Greene 12 Jul '13

12 Jul '13

This is great Janice. Ellie wanted to know what my difference's with Dowd were, this is a key one. I believe there is a psychic-spiritual dimension in everything. Michael and Connie are of the emergentist understanding of this type. We begin with dead or inert matter and at there is increasing complexity at certain stages there are phase shifts. So, e.g.., consciousness is an epiphenomenon of complexity. Here's an explanation, satisfactory to me, of why this is not the case: It seems that if we accept the modern scientific view of nature, we must accept the human phenomenon as supernatural, either emerging out of the natural realm but categorially quite different or else the product of special creation by some supernatural power. In science, we recognize the emergence of certain properties. For instance, water has properties not possessed by the elements that constitute it. But the elements and their organization explain water and its properties. However, there is no accounting for categorial structures. We cannot explain subject matter with normative and inherent meaning structures in terms of subject matter with only factual structures. If a categorially enriched subject matter should appear in a context with only existential and factual structures, its appearance would be a total mystery. In fact, there would be two mysteries: the new categorial structures and their appearance at the time and place in which they came into being. This has led some to think in terms of special creation. But that generates the mystery of a transcendent creative power with its categorial structure. That amounts to explaining a mystery by embedding it in a larger mystery created for the purpose. The intellectual quest drives us toward the reduction of mystery, not the multiplication or enlargement of it. The most plausible course seems to be to rethink nature in such a way that we can account for the appearance of the categorially rich biological and human realms as developments in or fulfillment of preexisting nature. In other words, the fact that biological and human phenomena appear on this planet in a “natural” environment tells us something about the “natural” environment, for it must be such that it brings forth the biological and the full array of human phenomena. . . . Hence, we seem compelled to reintroduce humanistic categories into the descriptive/explanatory language of science in its account of nature. If so, we have a new humanistic view of nature and less mystery. Of course the categorial structures of factuality, normativity, semantic intentionality, and causality (whether naturalistic in the modern sense or teleological) remain givens without explanation, for there is no logical room for an explanation of such basic features of the world. Here's a discussion of "emergentism" as distinguished from "emergence." Connie and Mike clearly stated to me that they are emergentists: All varieties of emergentism strive to be compatible with physicalism<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism>, the theory that the universe is composed exclusively of physical entities, and in particular with the evidence relating changes in the brain with changes in mental functioning. As a theory of mind (which it is not always), emergentism differs from idealism<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism> ,eliminative materialism<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliminative_materialism> , identity theories <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_theory_of_mind>, neutral monism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_monism>, panpsychism<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism>, and substance dualism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dualism>, whilst being closely associated with property dualism<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_dualism>. It is generally not obvious whether an emergent theory of mind embraces mental causation <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_causation> or must be considered epiphenomenal <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenal>. Some varieties of emergentism are not specifically concerned with the mind-body problem <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind-body_problem>, and instead suggest a hierarchical <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy> or layered view of the whole of nature, with the layers arranged in terms of increasing complexity <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complexity> with each requiring its own special science<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_science>. Typically physics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics> is basic, with chemistry <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemistry> built on top of it, then biology <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology>, psychology<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology> and social sciences <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_sciences>. Reductionists respond that the arrangement of the sciences is a matter of convenience, and that chemistry is derivable from physics (and so forth) *in principle*, an argument which gained force after the establishment of a quantum-mechanical basis for chemistry.[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergentism#cite_note-1> Other varieties see mind <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind> or consciousness <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness> as specifically and anomalously requiring emergentist explanation, and therefore constitute a family of positions in thephilosophy of mind<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mind> . Douglas Hofstadter <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Hofstadter> summarises this view as *"the soul is more than the hum of its parts"*. A number of philosophers have offered the argument that qualia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia> constitute the hard problem of consciousness<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness>, and resist reductive explanation in a way that all other phenomena do not. In contrast, reductionists generally see the task of accounting for the possibly atypical properties of mind and of living things as a matter of showing that, contrary to appearances, such properties are indeed fully accountable in terms of the properties of the basic constituents of nature and therefore in no way genuinely atypical. I am a panpsychist, or I prefer a "panexperientialist." Here are some of the other differences I have with Connie and Mike: I don't believe you can divide the world between the empirically verifiable--by the five sense and logic--and the subjective. I accept Henry James radical empiricism which recognizes other ways of knowing including somatic (or bodily), intuitive and conative (will, impulse, desire, and striving). I don't accept God as simply reality, or as we often have said "the way life is." I believe that God is the subject of God's own experience and acts. I don't believe there can be a marriage of religion and science--science here meaning empirical science, that which is measurable, that which covers primary but not secondary qualifies. I agree with Connie and Mike that there is a religious dimension of the scientific quest and that there is awe and mystery in scientific discovery. What evolution means deserves its own email, which I will send later. The phone call you note sounds wonderful Janice. I won't listen in Saturday but I will listen to the recording. Herman On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 7:40 PM, Janice Ulangca <aulangca(a)stny.rr.com>wrote: > ** > Colleagues, > > So much bubbling right now. And our "movement" needs to be part of it if > we are to find the relevant niches/roles for our unique experiences going > forward. I've been very interested in the list serv discussion of Charles > Taylor's "The Secular Society" - along with Michael Dowd's "Thank God for > Evolution". > > Some familiar names, along with some perhaps not so for all of us, are > coming up on a phone call this Saturday. Ken Wilbur's ideas have been > discussed by many of us - we read Riane Eisler's book "The Chalice and > the Blade" - and I remember hearing Barbara Marx Hubbard at 4750 the summer > we heard people like Jean Houston. Laszlo's book "The Chaos Point" we > studied here in Binghamton the year it came out. > > For those interested in the deeps of current reality, including the role > of consciousness, this phone call might be worth checking out. > > Janice Ulangca > > ------------------- > > *Saturday, July 20, 2013 > 12pm US Pacific / 3pm US Eastern > Sign up to listen live or receive the recording<http://track.namastelight.com/c/443/9af276896b8fea8a0c7547791cfeca4dea308f6…> > * > > The evidence is mounting from every direction: the materialist paradigm of > science is breaking down. Data that traditional scientists tried to ignore > or dismiss has become more robust every day. > > What will replace the materialist paradigm? And how will that new paradigm > change how we think about... everything? > > In this groundbreaking online event, some of the foremost thinkers of our > day will look at the implications of startling evidence that materialistic > science cannot explain, such as non-locality – that consciousness is > connected at a distance, instantly – and what they are calling the Akashic > Field – a kind of record-keeping function for the cosmos. > > They will look at how the cumulative body of evidence forces a major, even > historic shift in how we see the nature of reality. Consciousness comes to > the foreground, not as an evolutionary afterthought but a prime mover and > causative factor. > > How might this reshape the paradigm at the very foundations of science? > And how might it lead to the evolution of our culture and our consciousness? > > Join us for scintillating insights, powerful dialogue, and a spirit of > adventure into the unknown. > > You’ll hear powerful insights from pre-eminent panelists, including > scientists, philosophers, and futurists who are in public dialogue for the > first time: > > - *Ervin Laszlo* – Author of more than 80 books and one of the most > prodigious, systemic thinkers of our day > - *Ken Wilber *– Renowned integral philosopher who has bridged worlds > from spiritual practice to complexity theory to create a comprehensive map > of our Kosmos that includes our interiors > - *Barbara Marx Hubbard *– Celebrated as a visionary and futurist for > her ability to see future trends and possibilities > - *Riane Eisler* – Bestselling author, social scientist, pioneer of > the “partnership paradigm” > - *Duane Elgin *– Futurist, social visionary, author of five books, > former senior social scientist with Stanford Research Institute > > This teleseminar event is completely free. So invite your friends and > allies and skeptics as well to join you for what is sure to be 60 minutes > of brilliant and provocative insights that give you a powerful glimpse of > what the science of the next millennium just may look like. > > Even if you can’t make the call live, do sign up and you’ll receive access > to a recording. > > _______________________________________________ > OE mailing list > OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net > > -- __________________________________________________ Herman F. Greene 2516 Winningham Road Chapel Hill, NC 27516 919-942-4358 (ph & fax) hfgreenenc(a)gmail.com -- __________________________________________________ Herman F. Greene 2516 Winningham Road Chapel Hill, NC 27516 919-942-4358 (ph & fax) hfgreenenc(a)gmail.com -- __________________________________________________ Herman F. Greene 2516 Winningham Road Chapel Hill, NC 27516 919-942-4358 (ph & fax) hfgreenenc(a)gmail.com

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7/11/13, Spong: A Meditation on the State of America on its 237th Birthday
by Ellie Stock 11 Jul '13

11 Jul '13

HOMEPAGE MY PROFILE ESSAY ARCHIVE MESSAGE BOARDS CALENDAR A Meditation on the State of America on its 237th Birthday The United States celebrated its 237th birthday this past week. It seems, therefore, a fitting time for some moments of national reflection. In today’s column I seek to identify some of the forces that now appear to hold this nation in its grip. America is, I believe, going through an identity transition in which a new definition is emerging as to who and what this nation is. Such a time of expanding consciousness is never easy for a nation to endure. These transitions normally create great anger, but they are inevitable for, in the words of the poet James Russell Lowell, “time makes ancient good uncouth.” Change is a necessary aspect of every living thing. Death alone ends change. The power of change, as well as its fear, is present in the three major debates that engage America today. All of them have aroused intense political feelings and highly-spiced political rhetoric. I seek not to judge the rightness or wrongness of the competing sides, but to help myself and others to understand what these issues mean; out of what they might arise; why such deep emotions swirl around them, and finally, to see if the resources of our Christian faith have anything to bring to bear on the debate. The three debated issues are: 1) the move to fix our immigration laws, 2) the constant anti-female bias and rhetoric that shows up in a variety of bills targeting a wide array of issues, 3) gun control laws, especially the requirement of a background check before gun purchases. The irrationality of the debates becomes immediately obvious when we ask the obvious questions: Why does a nation of immigrants have such negativity about immigration? Why do males seem to be threatened by females so deeply that they harass and seek to control them in public life? What is it that causes the citizens of this nation to own more guns per person by a huge number than the citizens of any other nation in the world? Another interesting thing about these debates is that polls reveal a decisive majority of American voters believe that the immigration laws need to be changed; that women should have equality in both economic life and in health care, including reproductive health care and birth control, and that background checks for gun ownership should be required by law. So our curiosity is aroused as to why our elected leaders have chosen on each of these issues to defy this majority point of view. These debates have also aroused excessive emotions. Such frenzy reveals the presence of feeling, operating consciously and unconsciously. I want to understand these emotions. All three of these contentious issues are, I believe, related. Each reflects a nation in transition and each reveals a dramatic shift in power. It is the stuff of politics and nation building. A quick view of some historical facts might be helpful. This nation was not born as a democracy, but as a republic in which the right to vote was both controlled and limited. A prerequisite for voting was the ownership of land. That fact limited the franchise originally to upper class, well-to-do white males, but the pool of voters was destined in time to be increased dramatically, making control less and less possible. Non land-owning white males were the first to be added to the voting rolls, although poll taxes were quickly passed by the land-owning white male legislatures to discourage massive voter participation. Poll taxes kept poor whites from voting before they were used as a racial tool. That step, nonetheless, began to stretch the power of white males if ever so slightly. Following the Civil War, the vote was extended by a constitutional amendment to black males, but in the South, where the majority of the black people lived, intimidation made black voting dangerous and so the black vote was minimized. The poll tax now had a racial purpose. To this the threats of physical violence including lynching were added by the Ku Klux Klan. When those tactics came to be treated as crimes other means of suppressing the black vote would be devised. Requiring special voter identification and limiting voting hours are two of them. In 1920 a constitutional amendment was adopted extending the vote to women. Great male fear accompanied that amendment and its passage was fought with hysterical rhetoric. Even Frederick Douglass, one of the great voices of black emancipation, was a vehement foe of women voting. Among the reasons used to deny women the vote were these: Women didn’t understand politics! Women vote on emotions not rationality! Women might get together and elect the wrong person! The fact is that during the first seventy-five years of women voting, they split in an almost identical pattern with the men’s vote. As more women began to be educated, however, and to enter the work place as business executives, politicians, doctor, lawyers and even clergy a significant gender gap developed in American politics. In 1996, the women’s vote finally and decisively did elect the president of the United States, returning Bill Clinton to the White House for a second term. Without the women’s vote, Robert Dole of Kansas would have become the President of the United States. That gender gap was even larger in 2012. White male power was shaken. As long as women could be controlled by their biology and thereby be restricted by their inability to plan their families then competition from women for power could be minimized. The opposition to birth control and abortion was the immediate result. In 1954, the Civil Rights movement succeeded in desegregating the schools and in 1964 and 1965 a public accommodation act and a voting rights act were passed and black people began to climb the ladder toward economic and political power. These black voters did not vote for the party of Lincoln, but for the party that best addressed their economic agenda. Also in 1965 the Hart-Celler National Immigration Act was passed ending the system of immigration quotas assigned to each nation, which had served to privilege immigration from the nations of Europe and to limit severely immigration from Latin America, Asia and Africa. Now immigration, legal and illegal, began to change the complexion of the American body politic. It became more brown, more black, more female and younger. The Senate now reflects this shift, with twenty women senators forming a critical mass. The House of Representatives also reflects this shift. The Congressional Black Caucus has become a force with which to reckon. Then in 1971, and as the result of the Vietnam War, a constitutional amendment was passed lowering the voting age in America from 21 to 18, adding three more years of youthful voters to the voting rolls and once again a shift in the voting population was achieved. Later in 2008, the power of white males ruling America was broken and, to the horror of some, an African-American senator won the White House, defeating an American war hero and a long time member of the ruling establishment. The response to this election was a determined effort to limit him to one term and a campaign was waged against his legitimacy. His birth in the United States was questioned. He was accused by Newt Gingrich, the former speaker of the House of Representatives, of “channeling his Kenyan father’s anti-colonial prejudices.” The Tea Party was born to call America back to yesterday’s values. They were against immigration and against women having the power to free themselves from biological necessity. Despite all of this frenzied activity, the President was re-elected in 2012 by an even larger majority. When the vote in the 2012 election was analyzed, Mr. Romney still won the majority of white male voters, but only among those over 40. President Obama won large majorities among black voters, Latino voters, women voters and young voters, giving him the victory. The fear level among white males was now at frenetic levels. They looked into the future and saw a woman standing in the wings ready to take them on and to win the White House in 2016. They saw the Latino and the black populations growing. They saw the women’s vote becoming as militant as that of the Tea Party. They saw young people rising in power. It was as if they were facing a “last stand” and every tactic of opposition and gridlock began to be used. If the immigration bill were to pass, eleven million, now illegal, residents would be added to the voting rolls. Women were no longer willing to be second class citizens. Next a move was being made to limit their access to guns. The fear became rampant. Gridlock became real. A new America is being born – those who were once treated as outcasts are now owning their place in America’s life. Those who once ruled without serious challenge are seeing their power weakened and passing to those who seem to them to be “different, foreign or alien.” Fear creates irrationality, ideological arrogance and efforts to suppress. History reveals, however, that these tactics never work. The United States is in the process of learning that today. That kind of fear is always greater than the reality it fears. New leadership tends to carry on far more than to destroy. Women in power become both Democrats and Republicans. When blacks and Latinos become wealthy citizens, they too will become conservative. When young people grow older, they will increasingly reflect the values of the establishment. So America will walk through this transition. The Republican Party will ultimately move back to the center and in time will be returned to power. History reveals that despite all the changes I have outlined, the White House has in the last 113 years been occupied by the Republicans for 60 years and by the Democrats for 53 years. This country has remarkable balance. Finally, in this political process we, as a people, are redefining humanity. We are learning an ancient biblical lesson: In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, Democrat nor Republican, male nor female, gay nor straight, black nor white, bond nor free, there is simply a new humanity, a humanity without barriers or boundaries, celebrating all that humanity can be. I suggest that we ride out the political storm that is raging in America at this moment and see it as little more than the birth pangs of a new understanding of what it means to see the image of God in every human life. Happy 237th! John Shelby Spong Read the essay online here. Question & Answer John Otto Liljenstolpe writes: Question: Why do so many of your comments remind me of Bill Maher? Answer: Dear John, It is certainly not in the fact that I refrain from profanity and Bill does seem to enjoy the shock value of certain words. As a matter of fact, I have always enjoyed Bill Maher. He is a kind of liberal Bill O’Reilly. I believe I have been on his program, Politically Incorrect, seven times, one of which was a one on one version of that program. Bill is a very fierce critic of organized religion and in his comments he reveals that he cannot accept some of the more egregious of religious, irrational formulas like “Jesus died for my sins” and “It must be the will of God.” I must admit I find those phrases nonsensical myself. Bill’s religious background is Roman Catholic through one parent and Jewish through the other. God was communicated to him more like a punishing parent or a hanging judge who was going to get him rather than through the concept of life-affirming love. Bill is quick-witted, insightful and good at what he does. On great issues, he has integrity. He was fired by Disney from his program, Politically Incorrect, because he challenged a politician who called the terrorists who struck the World Trade Center in 2001 a group of “cowards.” Cowards, said Bill Maher, are those who fire long range missiles at civilian targets and never feel any fear of retribution. Cowards are those who bomb cities from 35,000 feet in the sky. The terrorists were willing to die for a cause in which they believed. You may question the appropriateness of that cause. You may be horrified at the pain it inflicted on innocent victims. Call them evil if you will, he continued, but they were not cowards. The Disney Corporation (owners of ABC) could not process that insight in the irrationality of the post 9/11 American World, but Bill was right and Disney was wrong. Bill Maher will always have cheerleaders and detractors. Anyone as insightful, quick-witted and honest as he is will always elicit both responses. He will also incur the ire of politicians and religious leaders when he punctures their arrogance, exposes their pomposity and peels the perfumed cover from their propaganda. Exposed people always react to that exposure with hostility. I like Bill Maher and I think he contributes to making America a more honest country. So I’m glad I remind you of him. Whether Bill likes that association will be up to him. ~John Shelby Spong Announcements New! Videos of Bishop Spong speaking all in one place. Visit our Videos Page today! We will be adding more on a regular basis. Send us your favorites to support(a)johnshelbyspong.com. Any questions or concerns, please contact us at support(a)johnshelbyspong.com or 503-236-3545. Copyright © 2013 ProgressiveChristianity.org, All rights reserved. You are receiving this email because you have a membership at our website. Our mailing address is: ProgressiveChristianity.org 3530 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Unit 1 Portland, OR 97214 Add us to your address book

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Re: [Oe List ...] A review of Charles Taylor's "The Secular Society"
by LAURELCG＠aol.com 10 Jul '13

10 Jul '13

Thanks, Randy. Now I remember why I liked the book so much, and Connie and Michael's course. Jann In a message dated 7/10/2013 3:10:02 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rcwmbw(a)yahoo.com writes: Friends, I'm fresh off having finished Dowd's book. Like most writers on this subject these days, from my perspective he gets a lot of it right, a lot of it wrong, ignores a lot of what I consider pertinent, and overall raises some very good questions to ponder. I have no interest in, nor basis for, defending Dowd, but here are some of his points that particularly resonated with me. For one, David, I believe he does exactly what you suggest in your last statement, he reconciles the conflict between religious faith and scientific knowledge. It is no particular leap for me to say, for example, that the story of creation is stated in one genre in the Bible (which Dowd would call "night language") and another way scientifically (which he would call "day language"), the latter expressed with the word "evolution," but that both are talking about the same reality. I personally prefer words like "emergence" or "unfolding" in place of evolution but believe they are pointing to same thing. And a key part of his message is that what all this points to is still going on and forever will be. I harken to the words in Revelation, "Behold, I make all things new," present tense with future implied. Another, I have no difficulty with Dowd's calling God "Ultimate Reality" and find that not too far from Tillich's "ground of being." Both insist that God is not one reality or one being among others, but the basis, foundation, context, etc. for all. And the faith question in relation to that ultimate groundedness is not, "What do you believe?" but rather "What do you trust to the point that are you willing to stake your life on it?" Jack, to your point about rationalizing away mystery, my reading of Dowd (perhaps because this is what I want him to say) is that once you have explained scientifically how something in the religious arena works or happens, that need not take the mystery out of it. My example--child birth. I have a layman's knowledge of how this happens scientifically, but it is no less mysterious and awe-filling each time it occurs. I could say the same about death. Hence in his talk about "public" and "private" revelation and about rational, factual language and about mythical, metaphorical language, the use of one does not cancel out the need for the other. While I am not as ready as he appears to be to discount the role and impact of scripture and tradition as being obsolete, my Wesleyan heritage puts me right with him in affirming that revelation is sourced not only through scripture and tradition but also through reason and experience. One of the ideas he pushes at hard is that God's evolutional, revelatory, creative activity did not stop and the end of the sixth day in Genesis or the day the last writer of the New Testament, or some other wisdom literature, put down his pen. Other points that caught my attention: that emergence happens through us in partnership with God; service to the Whole a big part of what we would call profound humanness; the dominant metaphor is changing from a mechanical to a nested, networked world, etc. etc. etc. Thanks, Herman, for prompting this conversation (again) and to all who are participating in it. Randy From: "jlepps(a)pc.jaring.my" <jlepps(a)pc.jaring.my> To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] A review of Charles Taylor's "The Secular Society" How could I stay out of this conversation??? There are at least three essays in my forthcoming book that address this issue. 2 are reviews of naive "theological" statements by Steven Hawking, and one is an essay on Faith. The latter is particularly pertinent here, since much of the controversy is about mis-understanding of language. Briefly, Faith seeks understanding, Faith seeks action, and Faith seeks expression. It's the expressions of faith that are sometimes confused with understandings of faith, and this leads to grossly flawed (and "unscientific") beliefs. It's as if one were to take Humpty Dumpty as a historical account rather than a mythological statement of profound truth! Anyway the book is called "The Theology of Surprise: Exploring Life's Mysteries." It should be out around the first of August through Resurgence Publishing. Should be available through Amazon soon. John At 04:19 PM 7/9/2013, you wrote: On Jul 9, 2013, at 3:49 PM, Herman Greene <_hfgreenenc(a)gmail.com_ (mailto:hfgreenenc@gmail.com) > wrote: Now this is an incomplete response and there is much more to be said, including some positive things about Michael's approach. By the way, in some senses I am a religious naturalist, but along the lines of process theology. See _Reenchantment without Supernaturalism: A Process Philosophy of Religion (Cornell Studies in the Philosophy of..._ (http://www.amazon.com/Reenchantment-without-Supernaturalism-Philosophy-Reli… TF8&qid=1373406412&sr=8-10&keywords=David+Ray+Griffin) by _David Ray Griffin_ (http://www.amazon.com/David-Ray-Griffin/e/B000APTCK4/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_10…) (Nov 16, 2000). In the process approach there's plenty of transcendence as well as immanence, and religious knowledge is not only what can be known through the five senses and logic. There are other ways of knowing. I think of myself as an avid scientist. What I believe is secondary and derivative of what I experience, with gratitude to the RS-I and Frank, Amy, Lyn, et al. I find myself thinking these days, "I don't believe in God, I have a God Hypothesis." I observe in more ways than I can name a mystery, depth, and greatness in the world (and dozens of et ceteras that I'll lump under the category gracious and holy mystery) that come at me in the form of relationships and events, inside me and outside me. It's all sustaining and energizing, etc., etc. My God hypothesis (for which read: narrative of what to expect) gives me eyes to see. My hypothesis is a narrative about trinitarian dynamics (limits, possibilities, freedom) and it has been uniformly and reliably predictive for over 40 years now. It's saved my life, one might say. Rather than "do you believe in God?" I prefer to ask, "What are our images of God? Are they predictive of life experience? Do they give us eyes to see?" I toy with images of myself as contemplative or mystic or inveterate listener or ceaseless questioner. All of them, really, are about constantly, unobtrusively observing, testing my hypothesis, refining my images of the way life is, and looking again, to see if I can see more of what is there and what is real. I think I'd better read Dowd, Griffin, and Brooks, to see what all the energy is about. I go a bit berserk at the endless, mindless contraversy about conflict between religious belief and scientific knowledge. David --- David Dunn 740 S Alton Way 9B Denver, CO 80247 720-314-5991 _dmdunn1(a)gmail.com_ (mailto:dmdunn1@gmail.com) _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list _OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net_ (mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net) http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

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Re: [Oe List ...] A review of Charles Taylor's "The Secular Society"
by LAURELCG＠aol.com 10 Jul '13

10 Jul '13

I think he needs to put Connie up front more. She is a solid scientist and a good foil for his energy. I saw him speak several years ago and took an online course. More recently I've enjoyed Andrew Cohen and Craig Hamilton's online work, and of course Andrew's book Evolutionary Enlightenment. Jann McGuire In a message dated 7/10/2013 8:37:15 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, tim(a)tswegner.net writes: Dowd came to speak at our church (Covenant Church in Houston). He is an amazingly high energy speaker, very interesting. He strides back and forth over about 30 feet on the stage with every possible gesture. But the high energy wears thin very quickly. Kind of like sticking the audience's heads in a fire hydrant stream. Too bad, because few people can do what he does. If he could alternate his high energy mode with a slow, quietly dramatic mode he would be a blockbuster speaker. Strange that someone who is on the road speaking continuously hasn't gotten (or maybe hasn't listened to) a little coaching on public speaking. Wouldn't take much to improve, assuming he is capable of standing still and lowering his voice for a few seconds. :-) I remember his style more than his message. We bought his book "Thank God for Evolution" which I will read and give him a chance. Tim _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

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A review of Charles Taylor's "The Secular Society"
by Herman Greene 10 Jul '13

10 Jul '13

It's no doubt hard to do a book review in the constraints of a NYC op-ed column. David Brooks tries, but I'm not tuning in to the richness of his review. Still I thought this may be of interest to you who taught about an urban, scientific and secular world. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/09/opinion/brooks-the-secular-society.html?hp -- __________________________________________________ Herman F. Greene 2516 Winningham Road Chapel Hill, NC 27516 919-942-4358 (ph & fax) hfgreenenc(a)gmail.com

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Memorial Service for Antonio "Tony" Elizondo Saturday July 27th 2:00 P M
by jonzondo＠juno.com 10 Jul '13

10 Jul '13

Greetings Everyone, My father's memorial service is Saturday July 27th at 2:00PM at The Woodlands Community Presbyterian Church. 4881 W. Panther Creek Drive The Woodlands, TX 77381 You are invited to share any Tony stories with me and I will add them to the Tony storyboard and/or to the service. Debra and I did not know the man you knew as a colleague and we appreciate the different perspectives. You are invited to share this invitation with others who know my father. You are welcome to join us. Please contact me with questions. 425-205-3856. In Beauty, Jon Mark Elizondo, son of Tony. "You stand at the closed door through which your loved one has passed. Those of us who love you stand beside you at the door." -Maya Angelou ____________________________________________________________ 30-second trick for a flat belly This daily 30-second trick BOOSTS your body's #1 fat-burning hormone http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/51dd99047a5f819045098st03vuc

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OE songs-Would you really like to have some fun?
by Paula Philbrook 10 Jul '13

10 Jul '13

The Archives team has a google hang out call on Wednesdays. We could all practice one song a month, then who ever could hang out on the first Wednesday join the hang out and record the song. I am sure it would take a few times of trying but it just might work. . . Musical intelligence is one of the last to go So as we all age, we just might need this music. Paula On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 7:25 PM, Marilyn Crocker <marilyncrocker(a)juno.com>wrote: > Bless you, Tim –on behalf of all the other “add me too’s”. Now we know > none will be left out. J**** > > ** ** > > *From:* oe-bounces(a)lists.wedgeblade.net [mailto: > oe-bounces(a)lists.wedgeblade.net] *On Behalf Of *Timothy Wegner > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 09, 2013 6:56 PM > *To:* Order Ecumenical Community > *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] OE songs**** > > ** ** > > Please don't send any more "add me too" messages to the list concerning > the Songs CD.**** > > ** ** > > I have offered to help Paula (or anyone else) to get the songs CD out. As > you can imagine it is extraordinarily inefficient to send an email out to > 250 list members just to tell one person "add me too".**** > > ** ** > > I hereby volunteer to:**** > > ** ** > > 1. Collect all the "me too" names from the list that were already posted > (e.g. those who requested a copy of an order songs CD.)**** > > ** ** > > 2. Collect any more requests via my private emails sent to me (not the > list) if you would like the songs CD. Sent to tim(a)tswegner.net.**** > > ** ** > > 3. Work with Paula or any other appropriate people to distribute the songs > when ready.**** > > ** ** > > 4. When CDs or online mp3's are ready, I will announce this to the lists > when the songs are ready, so there's no urgency to get your order in.**** > > ** ** > > Thanks,**** > > ** ** > > Tim Wegner**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 5:43 PM, Phyllis Hockley <phyllish(a)efn.org> wrote:* > *** > > Add me too. > Phyllis Hockley**** > > > > At 03:09 PM 7/9/2013 -0700, you wrote:**** > > Add me too, please. > George Lawson > > *From:* Nancy Trask <nancytrask(a)rocketmail.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 09, 2013 2:38 PM > *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> > *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] OE songs > > Add me, too - > > Nancy Trask > > **** > > *From:* Marianna Bailey <wmbailey(a)charter.net> > *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 9, 2013 4:09 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] OE songs > > > Also add Marianna Bailey! > > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 4:03 PM, Sarah H. Buss wrote: > > > Also add Sarah Buss > > Sarah > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 3:00 PM, Charles Hahn <cfhahn30(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Paula, > >> Please put Doris and me down for one of the CDs. > >> Charles Hahn > >> > >> On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 1:25 PM, <Jayandem2(a)aol.com> wrote: > >>> Paula, > >>> > >>> Please put Judith and me down for a copy of a CD. Somewhere along the > way > >>> we lost our vinyl recording of the songs. > >>> > >>> Grace and Peace, > >>> > >>> Mike and Judith Tippett > >>> > >>> In a message dated 7/7/2013 1:49:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > >>> h-wainwright(a)charter.net writes: > >>> > >>> Paula, please add Mary Ann and me to the list of colleagues who want > the CD. > >>> Thank you! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Sent from Samsung tablet > >>> > >>> Paula Philbrook <paula.philbrook(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>> My son-in-law can make a CD from a vinyl or a tape. I will ask him if > he > >>> could take delivery of your vinyl and make us a few CDs. > >>> > >>> He was planning to look with me at 4750 when he comes to Chicago next. > >>> > >>> Paula > >>> > >>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 6:38 AM, Sarah H. Buss <shbuss(a)mac.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> If made available, I would love a copy of this CD. > >>>> Sarah > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPad > >>>> > >>>> On Jul 6, 2013, at 4:51 PM, William Salmon <wsalmon(a)cox.net> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Dear All-- > >>>> As I set here, I'm looking at my copy of the 33 rpm cut of "Run Into > >>>> The Rising Sun." Sung by Len Desslar and Colleagues. (Beverly and I > were > >>>> apart of this choir.) > >>>> If interested I can have a CD cut of this record and send it to > >>>> Chicago and/or I can mail this record and its cover to Chicago, and I > can do > >>>> both. > >>>> ANY SUGGESTIONS? > >>>> > >>>> Copyright 1971 by e.i. records. Music: > >>>> > >>>> Side 1 Kindling The Spirit > >>>> All Life is Open ("Christ To Thee Be Glory") [Style & Biblical Poetry] > >>>> The Cryin' ("A Mighty Fortress Is Our God") > >>>> The God Song ("O Sacred Head Now Wounded") [RS-I Song] > >>>> > >>>> Side 2 Disclosing The Awe > >>>> Men of the Spirit [Style] > >>>> ("Sing Praise To Our Glorious Lord") [Journey & Praise] > >>>> Contemplation > >>>> On Poverty > >>>> Burden's Down [Spiritual] > >>>> On Obedience > >>>> ("Adoramus Te Christe) [Historic] > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: Jaime R Vergara > >>>> To: jackcgilles(a)gmail.com ; oe(a)wedgeblade.net > >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 2:46 AM > >>>> Subject: [Oe List ...] OE songs > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, Jack. I knew we had the list of titles and songs somewhere! > >>>> (Kept giving away my copies whenever I skipped town.) Just heard > Kenny G's > >>>> rendition of Autumn Breeze which was the music to Hai Ou's HDP. I > was on a > >>>> bus from Chengdu to Kangding in Sichuan. I burst into song, of > course. > >>>> Delighted the University students who found someone they could > practice > >>>> their oral English with > >>>> > >>>> j'aime la vie > >>>> > >>>> Yesterday, appreciate; tomorrow, anticipate; today, participate. In > all, > >>>> Celebrate! > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> OE mailing list > >>>> OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > >>>> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> > >>>> No virus found in this message. > >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>>> Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3204/6450 - Release Date: > 06/29/13 > >>>> Internal Virus Database is out of date. > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> OE mailing list > >>>> OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > >>>> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> OE mailing list > >>>> OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > >>>> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Paula > >>> > >>> Gratitude unlocks the fullness of life. It turns what we have into > enough, > >>> and more. It turns denial into acceptance, chaos to order, confusion to > >>> clarity. It can turn a meal into a feast, a house into a home, a > stranger > >>> into a friend. Gratitude makes sense of our past, brings peace for > today, > >>> and creates a vision for tomorrow. > >>> Melody Beattie > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> OE mailing list > >>> OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > >>> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> OE mailing list > >>> OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > >>> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net > >> _______________________________________________ > >> OE mailing list > >> OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > >> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net > > _______________________________________________ > > OE mailing list > > OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net > > _______________________________________________ > OE mailing list > OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net > > **** > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > OE mailing list > OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net > _______________________________________________ > OE mailing list > OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net**** > > > _______________________________________________ > OE mailing list > OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net**** > > ** ** > > _______________________________________________ > OE mailing list > OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net > > -- Paula *Gratitude unlocks the fullness of life. It turns what we have into enough, and more. It turns denial into acceptance, chaos to order, confusion to clarity. It can turn a meal into a feast, a house into a home, a stranger into a friend. Gratitude makes sense of our past, brings peace for today, and creates a vision for tomorrow*. *Melody* Beattie

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Salmon: OE songs
by William Salmon 09 Jul '13

09 Jul '13

Dear All-- As I set here, I'm looking at my copy of the 33 rpm cut of "Run Into The Rising Sun." Sung by Len Desslar and Colleagues. (Beverly and I were apart of this choir.) If interested I can have a CD cut of this record and send it to Chicago and/or I can mail this record and its cover to Chicago, and I can do both. ANY SUGGESTIONS? Copyright 1971 by e.i. records. Music: Side 1 Kindling The Spirit All Life is Open ("Christ To Thee Be Glory") [Style & Biblical Poetry] The Cryin' ("A Mighty Fortress Is Our God") The God Song ("O Sacred Head Now Wounded") [RS-I Song] Side 2 Disclosing The Awe Men of the Spirit [Style] ("Sing Praise To Our Glorious Lord") [Journey & Praise] Contemplation On Poverty Burden's Down [Spiritual] On Obedience ("Adoramus Te Christe) [Historic] ----- Original Message ----- From: Jaime R Vergara To: jackcgilles(a)gmail.com ; oe(a)wedgeblade.net Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 2:46 AM Subject: [Oe List ...] OE songs Thanks, Jack. I knew we had the list of titles and songs somewhere! (Kept giving away my copies whenever I skipped town.) Just heard Kenny G's rendition of Autumn Breeze which was the music to Hai Ou's HDP. I was on a bus from Chengdu to Kangding in Sichuan. I burst into song, of course. Delighted the University students who found someone they could practice their oral English with j'aime la vie Yesterday, appreciate; tomorrow, anticipate; today, participate. In all, Celebrate! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3204/6450 - Release Date: 06/29/13 Internal Virus Database is out of date.

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Re: [Oe List ...] Salmon: OE songs
by Harry Wainwright 07 Jul '13

07 Jul '13

Paula, please add Mary Ann and me to the list of colleagues who want the CD. Thank you! Sent from Samsung tabletPaula Philbrook <paula.philbrook(a)gmail.com> wrote:My son-in-law can make a CD from a vinyl or a tape. I will ask him if he could take delivery of your vinyl and make us a few CDs. He was planning to look with me at 4750 when he comes to Chicago next. Paula On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 6:38 AM, Sarah H. Buss <shbuss(a)mac.com> wrote: If made available, I would love a copy of this CD. Sarah Sent from my iPad On Jul 6, 2013, at 4:51 PM, William Salmon <wsalmon(a)cox.net> wrote: Dear All-- As I set here, I'm looking at my copy of the 33 rpm cut of "Run Into The Rising Sun." Sung by Len Desslar and Colleagues. (Beverly and I were apart of this choir.) If interested I can have a CD cut of this record and send it to Chicago and/or I can mail this record and its cover to Chicago, and I can do both. ANY SUGGESTIONS? Copyright 1971 by e.i. records. Music: Side 1 Kindling The Spirit All Life is Open ("Christ To Thee Be Glory") [Style & Biblical Poetry] The Cryin' ("A Mighty Fortress Is Our God") The God Song ("O Sacred Head Now Wounded") [RS-I Song] Side 2 Disclosing The Awe Men of the Spirit [Style] ("Sing Praise To Our Glorious Lord") [Journey & Praise] Contemplation On Poverty Burden's Down [Spiritual] On Obedience ("Adoramus Te Christe) [Historic] ----- Original Message ----- From: Jaime R Vergara To: jackcgilles(a)gmail.com ; oe(a)wedgeblade.net Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 2:46 AM Subject: [Oe List ...] OE songs Thanks, Jack. I knew we had the list of titles and songs somewhere! (Kept giving away my copies whenever I skipped town.) Just heard Kenny G's rendition of Autumn Breeze which was the music to Hai Ou's HDP. I was on a bus from Chengdu to Kangding in Sichuan. I burst into song, of course. Delighted the University students who found someone they could practice their oral English with j'aime la vie Yesterday, appreciate; tomorrow, anticipate; today, participate. In all, Celebrate! _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3204/6450 - Release Date: 06/29/13 Internal Virus Database is out of date. _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net -- Paula Gratitude unlocks the fullness of life. It turns what we have into enough, and more. It turns denial into acceptance, chaos to order, confusion to clarity. It can turn a meal into a feast, a house into a home, a stranger into a friend. Gratitude makes sense of our past, brings peace for today, and creates a vision for tomorrow. Melody Beattie

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