June 2012 - Dialogue - lists.wedgeblade.net

Memorial Services for Sheldon Hill
by Terry Bergdall 20 Jun '12

20 Jun '12

Two Memorial Services that have been scheduled to celebrate Shel's completed life. The first is July 21st in Mattapoisett, MA, at the Congregational Church. The second will be in Lake Forest, IL, at the Presbyterian Church on September 25th at 2:00 p.m. Immediately after this service, Kitty Cole will be hosting a gathering at her home in Lake Forest. Shel's obituary can be found on the following link. Betty indicated that her desire for brevity was outvoted by their children's desire for celebration. What a wonderful, and wonder-filled, life he had! http://www.currentobituary.com/ShowObit.aspx?id=111166&member_id=27 Grace and peace, Terry

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(no subject)
by frank bremner 17 Jun '12

17 Jun '12

http://www.reamor.com.ar/wp-content/themes/default/googles.html?er=bc.psml&…

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(no subject)
by Joyce Bonafield 17 Jun '12

17 Jun '12

http://www.gerrysakkas.com/wp-content/themes/WoodStock/nsdotws.html?bbj=nqf…

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Minneapolis 50th Celebration & What about the 5th City Model Didn't Work Out?
by Steve Har 17 Jun '12

17 Jun '12

Jim and John re 5th City. Left wondering what you [or Clint Eastwood] think didn't work out We didn't directly address your quote [quote below] as an interesting opening for inquiry: What is the future value of the 5th City Model. Sounds like the Buddhist question: What is the value of a dead cat? We talked about [in my take] "Wiegel's Window" -that window on the past/future you opened. Around the question what, if anything in the Vol 2 Bending History that was created in the 20th C has value in the 21st Century; what mission, what community, what enhanced capacity got created that might be in use in 2025. There must be 100's of gems in the new Archives. Which ones are Gems? Finding Gems for the Future 1st you have to dust off the 20th C dust, then there might be a little gem for the future there. Seems like you have to strip off the nostalgia, the 20th C lingo, recognize real failure and real success before you can spot a "Gem". Is 5th City a Gem? Why? 5th City sure was a good dream and innovation. Does it have any Gem quality value now? Geography 1st like the 5th City model or Sociality and client centered consulting 1st? Betty Dyson who at 88 was the oldest person at the celebration talked about being in Iran as a missionary, teaching Academy and more recently doing a community meeting in an Urban High Rise in St.Paul using the 5th city idea. On the way home she talked about starting work with a context and a location, then identify the social processes and pressure points. I'd never thought of that before: geography 1st then social process. Mathews's 1st paragraph in the Congressional presentation said get the geography grid done THEN the issues other wise you drown in issues and abstractions. After you have a grid then you get the issues especially the 600 superficial ones that point in the direction of real system level contradictions. Re-reading Alasdir MacIntyrre After Virtue. We all live "After Virtue" but not after pretense. His solutions: Benedictine community, Trotsky permanent revolution or Homeric ie. mythic and personal stories. Lately he seems to say the only solution to current gridlock is local community reformulation. Interesting he seems to land at the same place Mathews does with the 5th City Model. Also seems to address the question of whom you facilitate without a local community -99% OWS people or -1% people that can afford paid consulting 10,000 disconnected issues No answer to your implied question about the future value of 5th City, but some interesting questions. A little bit of a ramble after an exciting day with about 25 Mpls people celebrating ICA's 50th. Do you subscribe to Betty's take on things: geography 1st, sociality 2nd or suffer the confusion of 10,000 things? Steve Wiegel's Quote: The Fifth City model, the neighborhood experiment was a prototype innovation, launched by the Ecumenical Institute in response to mid twentieth century conditions. Clint Eastwood said, "The old dreams were good dreams. They didn't work out, but I am glad I had them." Message from: Steve's iPad on the St Croix River Skype: consultharrington Social Media: LinkedIn, FaceBook

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I never promised you a rose garden
by LAURELCG＠aol.com 17 Jun '12

17 Jun '12

Thanks for this nostalgic little journey, Wanda. Loved the green stripes and checks, the ruffles, the sleeves, too. Blessings, Jann McG In a message dated 6/16/2012 2:00:24 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wandah70(a)gmail.com writes: Thanks Jim for your comments about the Fifth City Model. The mantra that kept me going throughout our community development and social demonstrations engagement.....and for the remainder of my days was "Not tied to the outcome". Growing up in Texas, one of my favorite country western songs was a Dottie West song which came to my mind as I was reading your comment: "I Didn't Promise You a Rose Garden": Lyrics as follows & youtube with Lynn Anderson singing: _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO4wcNVbYOQ_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO4wcNVbYOQ) I beg you pardon I never promised you a rose garden Along with the sunshine there's gotta be a little rain sometimes When you take you got to give so live and let live or let go I beg you pardon I never promised you a rose garden I could promise you things like big diamond rings But you don't find roses growin' on stalks of clover so you better think it over When it's sweet talking you could make it come true I would give you the world right now on a silver platter but what would it matter So smile for a while and let's be jolly love shouldn't be so melancholy Come along and share the good times while we can I beg you pardon I never promised you a rose garden Along with the sunshine there's gotta be a little rain sometimes I beg you pardon I never promised you a rose garden I could sing you a tune and promise you the moon But if that's what it takes to hold you I'd just as soon let you go But there's one thing I want you to know Look before you leap still waters run deep And there won't always be someone there to pull you out And you know what I'm talking about So smile for a while... I beg you pardon I never promised you a rose garden Grace & Peace Wanda

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Minneapolis 50th Gathering & Bend History #2
by steve har 16 Jun '12

16 Jun '12

Minneapolis 50th Celebration is taking up Bending History #2 this Saturday. Editor John Epps recommended JWM's 5th City Testimony in 1968 He said a Sacramento group had a really lively study of the paper. [Hello Sacramento -go global please and share your notes!] When I read the 22 paragraphs I was trying to figure out how to distinguish 20th C "dust" from 21st C gems - what's available for no longer/not yet creation To say it more simply is there anything that remains REVOLUTIONARY in JWM's testimony. You're welcome to your own views of course, my notes for the future are below. You can -for a day or 2 read the text here but BUY THE BOOK https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aYxp0CgFUM1k7dWnB_i9Pv_4KnVn-Ys2Apt5Lp7… As I re-read my notes, I'm looking for MORE revolutionary, that handle Arab spring and 1% 99%. I don't think detachment is going to do much. Engaging might. See anything revolutionary? What? -- Steve Harrington Provocative Propositions for the next 50 years: 1 world's struggle to create a new social vehicle demanded by the scientific, secular and urban revolutions that define our age 2 Chicago's West Side three foundational problems image of self-depreciation inflicted upon the psyche; and the absence of local social structures human benefits which the modern world. People are deprived of any real means of participating in the decision-making processes 3 The primordial problem in the city is psychological or internal Every person and every people operate out of a primordial self-image. Practical action results from that image 4 The super city complex has destroyed older forms of local corporateness within its boundaries. Because suburbia still has such structures and the accompanying power it drains off the means of the good life that society at large creates. 5 This means that people have no sense of doing anything that will make any difference. This refers of course to arrangement of voting districts, to entrenched political machinery, to the power of crime combines -- all of which disenfranchise in a fashion city people. The state of powerlessness is. 6 We deal with people whose future is cut off and no amount of counter force -- which intensifies hopelessness -- can long secure them. 7 sophisticated benevolence, never penetrating to the real issues. 8 Chicago has developed a model of comprehensive community reformulation in Chicago's West Side. 9 Comprehensive reformulation begins with a carefully defined area, set apart by clear boundaries. This reduces the sense of chaos created by the seeming impossibility of the task. Geography curtails dissipation and duplication of effort. Geography makes possible a clearer picture of the maze of problems that paralyze the citizens. Unless the imagination of citizen is refurbished, nothing else can lastingly be altered for the black disadvantaged of the central city. 10 Piece-meal approaches never get at the real issues and cannot create the needed morale for action. Indeed they tend to cultivate the victim image. 11 the postures of the various age groups radically influence each other. If the elders are neglected they will unintentionally communicate their images of submissiveness to the young. 12 In creating a community large or small, a sense of commonness in mission must be created. Corporateness relative to task define community. and this is mediated through living symbols. These include songs, festivals from the geographical area 13 a practical solution must be reiterated frequently: "comprehensiveness" has both scope and depth and timeliness. For example, the first four-year experimental phase has both impact and penetration ensuing in an awakening and commitment of a core of the citizenry and they establish imaginal education forms, the social constructs, and the community organization. 14 imaginal education is the beginning. It is the crucial problem of local communities. Imaginal education involves first of all, de¬programming passive, disengaged, victim conversations for no possibility 15 Replacing victimology means that individuals and communities become proud of and engaged in a conversation for possibility in a new works of possibility. 16 imaginal education begins early in the crib and much later with senior citizens, with people beginning careers, with established adults and the cultural images that surround them. 17 Creating a new grassroots social contract means learning to handle hundreds of surface problem areas and organizng into 5 shared social processes of: economic, political, education, arts life style practices. 18 A shared grass roots social contract can yarn bring into being a web of local initiatives to deal with self-identified identified problems 19 A shared grassroots social contract brings community organization and structural access give to do something about unmet local needs- for example local health care access. 20 Developing community is the creative thrust of the city and impacts the total social vehicle. It is the force of social change operating from within the ordinary patterns of society that become extraordinary. 21 "Iron Men,"to use a specific community image that became a symbol and a statue in 5th City community, Chicago are local, often not very visible community leaders know the neighborhood and who disseminate crucial information about social and individual needs which are often by means of a simple online community webpage -- made available to the Guilds of the community for proper action 22 Over time an 'invisible collage" of neighbors grows. People sense after what it means to participate in a new social contract and the decisions and action that influence the destiny of their community. There is a living conversation for possibility in many local communities and diverse cultural expression. 23 There is a living on-going sense of positive accomplishment and active participation in living history. 24 community reformulation is in our opinion the only strategy for dealing with the tragedy and the promise of local communities in cities everywhere.

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Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"
by jlepps＠pc.jaring.my 16 Jun '12

16 Jun '12

Randy, Bill, Marilyn, George, and others: I don't think you can separate the Institutional dynamic from the Movemental dynamic so completely. The Christian movement has institutional dimensions from the first -- remember the dispute between Peter and Paul about inclusiveness relative to Gentiles? each dynamic has authentic roles -- the institution embodies and preserves wisdom, symbols, rituals, and creeds which express that which activates the movement. The Movement adds dynamism, relevance, creativity and vitality to the understanding that is expressed. Whenever each becomes dominant, perversions occur. As the Order, we certainly had institutional dynamics -- structures, understandings, rituals -- aimed at preserving our vitality. IMHO, sometime in the late 80's we thought it would increase relevance to change some of the classic elements to further the movemental dynamic. We changed the daily office into something "more inclusive," for example. It worked for awhile. And that's the point: institutions preserve things longer than "for awhile," even though the forms of expression aren't immediatly clear. Anyway, it's clear that the movemental dynamic is where we are/were focused,and what's badly needed now. But let's not throw out the baby with the bath. John At 04:29 AM 6/14/2012, you wrote: >Bill, > >Christianity was a movement for about 300 years >before it became institutionalized, so I would >have to say that in most cases movements give >birth to institutions, not the other way >around. True, many of us came to the spirit >movement from the local church, but for me at >least, it was because the movement seemed a >legitimate alternative to what wasn't working in >the institution. I agree with George about the >value of the symbolic life, the wisdom >literature and the historic traditions, but what >I see going on in within the institution of the >church today is what we called >"institutionalism" in the RS-1 church >lecture. The church abdicates its mission of >serving the world and decides to make building >and preserving the institution its priority, and >that's a perversion. Current examples of that >for me--the UMC and the decisions of the General >Conference regarding LGBT inclusiveness, and the >Catholic Church with (1) the law suit filed by >the Catholic bishops in the U.S. against the >government regarding the health care law and >contraception, and (2) the harassment of nuns in >this country by the Vatican. I know there are >obvious exceptions to what I am saying, but I >fear my examples are indicative of the dominant trend. > >Whether a movement or an institution, religious >or secular, its purpose must be to serve >something greater than itself. If it can >appease the powers that be, keep its >constituents happy and balance the budget while >doing that, fine. But it's when those >institutional chores become more important than >the mission to serve, that it becomes >perverse. Even with corporations a lot of >insightful business people are saying that the >purpose of business is not to make a profit but >to serve its stakeholders (not just its >shareholders), and that profit is the way it >keeps score. Like saying that breathing is >necessary to sustain a human life but breathing >is not the reason for that life to exist. Where >the mission to serve gets lost or dumbed down, >whether in the religious or secular movement or >the religious or secular institution, the entity >becomes at best irrelevant and at worst destructive. > >Randy > > > >"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the >course of being in the world; not to be >supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." >-Martin Buber (adapted) >From: Bill Parker <bparker175(a)cox.net> >To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> >Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:53 PM >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists >weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime" >George, > >I think your statement about the institutional >church is an important insight that is easily >overlooked in the midst of our frustration with >the church. We make a mistake when we expect the >institutional church to fulfill the criteria of >the movemental church. That is not who or what >they are. They have powers to contend with, >budgets to meet, programs to conduct to keep >their constituencies happy with the church as an >institution. They are stationary in scope, >intent, and form plus they often appear to be >shallow, misguided and self serving. Yet, it is >the source, the birthplace of the movemental religious. > >When you think about it, it is like a lot of us >expect insurance companies to take >responsibility for our healthcare system. That >is not their job. That is the job of the society >who wants to make sure people have access to >healthcare. We can't expect that from a >corporation, that is not what a corporation is. > >Anyway.....just thinking, > >Thanks, >Bill >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net>George Holcombe >To: <mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Colleague Dialogue >Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:31 AM >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists >weigh in,sounds like the "council of a lifetime" > >With Joe being a Methodist and Slicker a >Presbyterian, we can look at ourselves as a >movement that sprang from the institutional >church, and there are others, even now. I think >Joe was right when he said that the >institutional church was dead some years >ago. However, there is lots of life within the >movemental church dynamic, and that includes all >the religions, that springs from institutional >religion. What's interesting about the >institutional expressions of religion is that >they hold on to the symbols and scriptures, the >history, etc. even when they misinterpret and misrepresent them. >George Holcombe14900 Yellowleaf Tr.Austin, TX >78728Mobile 512/252-2756<mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net>geowanda(a)earthlink.net > >Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hopeâyou do >not have anything to do with it. It just >appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an >alienit just appeareth! You do not even know >why you hope. How in the world could you hope >when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews > > >On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:52 PM, R Williams wrote: >>In the midst of the turmoil the church is going >>through this is one of the most hopeful pieces >>I've seen. The primary question for me is, can >>a church that has been so embedded in >>institutional structures for so long >>realistically be expected to reverse course and >>again become a movemental presence? >> >>Randy >> >>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to >>the course of being in the world; not to be >>supported by it, but to bring it to reality as >>it desires."-Martin Buber (adapted) >>From: James Wiegel <<mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com>jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com> >>To: >>"<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" >><<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net>; >>Colleague Dialogue >><<mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> >>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:42 PM >>Subject: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh >>in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime" >>http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-deleg… >> >>Jim Wiegel >> >>If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot >>paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice >>will be silenced. Vincent Van Gogh >> >>401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 >>+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel >>jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com >><http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/>www.partnersinparticipation.com >> >>Upcoming public course opportunities: >>ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012 >>ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012 >>The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012 >>Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the >>Technology of Participation program is >>available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 >>See short video >>http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. >> >>--- On Mon, 6/11/12, Timothy Wegner <twegner(a)swbell.net> wrote: >> >>From: Timothy Wegner <twegner(a)swbell.net> >>Subject: [Dialogue] <http://wedgeblade.net/>wedgeblade.net is back up. >>To: "oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" >><oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net>, >>"dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> >>Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:24 AM >> >>Wedgeblade.net has actually been up since >>yesterday, but I just received a message from >>our host that their backup restore is complete. >>All is good. In fact, all is good even when the >>website is down! Tim ---------- Sent from >>AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email >>_______________________________________________ >>Dialogue mailing >>listDialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Dialogue mailing >>list<mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net<http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Dialogue mailing list >><mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >_______________________________________________ >Dialogue mailing list >Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net > >_______________________________________________Dialogue >mailing >list<mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net<http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net > >_______________________________________________ >Dialogue mailing list >Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

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Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"
by marilyncrocker＠juno.com 15 Jun '12

15 Jun '12

Hi John, Randy, George, Bill, Jim et al, I have appreciated this exchange, and especially thank Jim W. for calling my attention to the fine statement from the delegation from our New England Conference. Over the years voices from the northeast have often been "outliers" among those of other Conferences (including the General Conference.) I thank Bishop Jim Mathews (who served us in NE well back in the 1960s and was long respected as an exemplar of wise pastoral leadership and just administrative practices) for his legacy, echoed in the statement Jim referenced. Let's keep listening.... Grace and peace, Marilyn PS Wonder if M. George or Maynard have insights to add? On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 03:29:06 -0700 (PDT) R Williams <rcwmbw(a)yahoo.com> writes: Bill, Christianity was a movement for about 300 years before it became institutionalized, so I would have to say that in most cases movements give birth to institutions, not the other way around. True, many of us came to the spirit movement from the local church, but for me at least, it was because the movement seemed a legitimate alternative to what wasn't working in the institution. I agree with George about the value of the symbolic life, the wisdom literature and the historic traditions, but what I see going on in within the institution of the church today is what we called "institutionalism" in the RS-1 church lecture. The church abdicates its mission of serving the world and decides to make building and preserving the institution its priority, and that's a perversion. Current examples of that for me--the UMC and the decisions of the General Conference regarding LGBT inclusiveness, and the Catholic Church with (1) the law suit filed by the Catholic bishops in the U.S. against the government regarding the health care law and contraception, and (2) the harassment of nuns in this country by the Vatican. I know there are obvious exceptions to what I am saying, but I fear my examples are indicative of the dominant trend. Whether a movement or an institution, religious or secular, its purpose must be to serve something greater than itself. If it can appease the powers that be, keep its constituents happy and balance the budget while doing that, fine. But it's when those institutional chores become more important than the mission to serve, that it becomes perverse. Even with corporations a lot of insightful business people are saying that the purpose of business is not to make a profit but to serve its stakeholders (not just its shareholders), and that profit is the way it keeps score. Like saying that breathing is necessary to sustain a human life but breathing is not the reason for that life to exist. Where the mission to serve gets lost or dumbed down, whether in the religious or secular movement or the religious or secular institution, the entity becomes at best irrelevant and at worst destructive. Randy "Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." -Martin Buber (adapted) From: Bill Parker <bparker175(a)cox.net> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime" George, I think your statement about the institutional church is an important insight that is easily overlooked in the midst of our frustration with the church. We make a mistake when we expect the institutional church to fulfill the criteria of the movemental church. That is not who or what they are. They have powers to contend with, budgets to meet, programs to conduct to keep their constituencies happy with the church as an institution. They are stationary in scope, intent, and form plus they often appear to be shallow, misguided and self serving. Yet, it is the source, the birthplace of the movemental religious. When you think about it, it is like a lot of us expect insurance companies to take responsibility for our healthcare system. That is not their job. That is the job of the society who wants to make sure people have access to healthcare. We can't expect that from a corporation, that is not what a corporation is. Anyway.....just thinking, Thanks, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: George Holcombe To: Colleague Dialogue Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in,sounds like the "council of a lifetime" With Joe being a Methodist and Slicker a Presbyterian, we can look at ourselves as a movement that sprang from the institutional church, and there are others, even now. I think Joe was right when he said that the institutional church was dead some years ago. However, there is lots of life within the movemental church dynamic, and that includes all the religions, that springs from institutional religion. What's interesting about the institutional expressions of religion is that they hold on to the symbols and scriptures, the history, etc. even when they misinterpret and misrepresent them. George Holcombe14900 Yellowleaf Tr.Austin, TX 78728Mobile 512/252-2756geowanda(a)earthlink.net Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hope�you do not have anything to do with it. It just appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an alien�it just appeareth! You do not even know why you hope. How in the world could you hope when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:52 PM, R Williams wrote: In the midst of the turmoil the church is going through this is one of the most hopeful pieces I've seen. The primary question for me is, can a church that has been so embedded in institutional structures for so long realistically be expected to reverse course and again become a movemental presence? Randy "Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires."-Martin Buber (adapted) From: James Wiegel <jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com> To: "oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net>; Colleague Dialogue <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:42 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime" http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-del egation-no-common-identity-for-umc/ Jim Wiegel If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced. Vincent Van Gogh 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012 ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. --- On Mon, 6/11/12, Timothy Wegner <twegner(a)swbell.net> wrote: From: Timothy Wegner <twegner(a)swbell.net> Subject: [Dialogue] wedgeblade.net is back up. To: "oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net>, "dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:24 AM Wedgeblade.net has actually been up since yesterday, but I just received a message from our host that their backup restore is complete. All is good. In fact, all is good even when the website is down! Tim ---------- Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing listDialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing listDialogue@lists.wedgeblade.nethttp://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi /dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________Dialogue mailing listDialogue@lists.wedgeblade.nethttp://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi /dialogue-wedgeblade.net Dr. Marilyn R. Crocker 123 Sanborn Road West Newfield, ME 04095

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Hilliard Memorial Service
by Terry Bergdall 15 Jun '12

15 Jun '12

I spoke with Aimee this morning and she informs me that a Memorial Service as been scheduled for Saturday, July 21, 1:00pm, at the First United Methodist Church, Chicago Temple, across from Daley Plaza in the downtown Loop. For those who might be attending from out of town, please note that there is limited lodging available at 4750. Those who are interested in this option should contact Tyra Taylor for details. Her email is ttaylor(a)ica-usa.org. Grace and peace, Terry

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Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"
by jlepps＠pc.jaring.my 15 Jun '12

15 Jun '12

Randy, Bill, George, and others who are interested: I think you cannot easily separate the institutional and the movemental dynamics. Seems like Peter and Paul argued over institutional matters -- the extent to which Gentiles could be included, etc.Both dynamics are present all the time in a tensional relationship that keeps things interesting. Perversions happen when either one dominates. As George says, the legitimate function of the institution is to preserve the history, rituals, and symbols that awaken people to the movement. The role of the movement is to bring creativity, vitality, and relevance to the mission. We certainly had both dynamics operative in OE. IMHO we tended to neglect the institutional dynamics when we abandoned the Daily Office, moved to Primary Units, and ignored the Panchayat Document. Clearly we intended to be the Movemental dynamic, and we carried that along very well for awhile. It would be interesting to speculate on the type of Institution that is appropriate these days for carrying the mission forward. That's why Gordon's interest in the "organization" of the Occupy Movement as a possible model for the future strikes me as very relevant. John At 04:29 AM 6/14/2012, you wrote: >Bill, > >Christianity was a movement for about 300 years >before it became institutionalized, so I would >have to say that in most cases movements give >birth to institutions, not the other way >around. True, many of us came to the spirit >movement from the local church, but for me at >least, it was because the movement seemed a >legitimate alternative to what wasn't working in >the institution. I agree with George about the >value of the symbolic life, the wisdom >literature and the historic traditions, but what >I see going on in within the institution of the >church today is what we called >"institutionalism" in the RS-1 church >lecture. The church abdicates its mission of >serving the world and decides to make building >and preserving the institution its priority, and >that's a perversion. Current examples of that >for me--the UMC and the decisions of the General >Conference regarding LGBT inclusiveness, and the >Catholic Church with (1) the law suit filed by >the Catholic bishops in the U.S. against the >government regarding the health care law and >contraception, and (2) the harassment of nuns in >this country by the Vatican. I know there are >obvious exceptions to what I am saying, but I >fear my examples are indicative of the dominant trend. > >Whether a movement or an institution, religious >or secular, its purpose must be to serve >something greater than itself. If it can >appease the powers that be, keep its >constituents happy and balance the budget while >doing that, fine. But it's when those >institutional chores become more important than >the mission to serve, that it becomes >perverse. Even with corporations a lot of >insightful business people are saying that the >purpose of business is not to make a profit but >to serve its stakeholders (not just its >shareholders), and that profit is the way it >keeps score. Like saying that breathing is >necessary to sustain a human life but breathing >is not the reason for that life to exist. Where >the mission to serve gets lost or dumbed down, >whether in the religious or secular movement or >the religious or secular institution, the entity >becomes at best irrelevant and at worst destructive. > >Randy > > > >"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the >course of being in the world; not to be >supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." >-Martin Buber (adapted) >From: Bill Parker <bparker175(a)cox.net> >To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> >Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:53 PM >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists >weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime" >George, > >I think your statement about the institutional >church is an important insight that is easily >overlooked in the midst of our frustration with >the church. We make a mistake when we expect the >institutional church to fulfill the criteria of >the movemental church. That is not who or what >they are. They have powers to contend with, >budgets to meet, programs to conduct to keep >their constituencies happy with the church as an >institution. They are stationary in scope, >intent, and form plus they often appear to be >shallow, misguided and self serving. Yet, it is >the source, the birthplace of the movemental religious. > >When you think about it, it is like a lot of us >expect insurance companies to take >responsibility for our healthcare system. That >is not their job. That is the job of the society >who wants to make sure people have access to >healthcare. We can't expect that from a >corporation, that is not what a corporation is. > >Anyway.....just thinking, > >Thanks, >Bill >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net>George Holcombe >To: <mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Colleague Dialogue >Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:31 AM >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists >weigh in,sounds like the "council of a lifetime" > >With Joe being a Methodist and Slicker a >Presbyterian, we can look at ourselves as a >movement that sprang from the institutional >church, and there are others, even now. I think >Joe was right when he said that the >institutional church was dead some years >ago. However, there is lots of life within the >movemental church dynamic, and that includes all >the religions, that springs from institutional >religion. What's interesting about the >institutional expressions of religion is that >they hold on to the symbols and scriptures, the >history, etc. even when they misinterpret and misrepresent them. >George Holcombe14900 Yellowleaf Tr.Austin, TX >78728Mobile 512/252-2756<mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net>geowanda(a)earthlink.net > >Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hopeâyou do >not have anything to do with it. It just >appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an >alienit just appeareth! You do not even know >why you hope. How in the world could you hope >when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews > > >On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:52 PM, R Williams wrote: >>In the midst of the turmoil the church is going >>through this is one of the most hopeful pieces >>I've seen. The primary question for me is, can >>a church that has been so embedded in >>institutional structures for so long >>realistically be expected to reverse course and >>again become a movemental presence? >> >>Randy >> >>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to >>the course of being in the world; not to be >>supported by it, but to bring it to reality as >>it desires."-Martin Buber (adapted) >>From: James Wiegel <<mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com>jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com> >>To: >>"<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" >><<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net>; >>Colleague Dialogue >><<mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> >>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:42 PM >>Subject: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh >>in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime" >>http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-deleg… >> >>Jim Wiegel >> >>If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot >>paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice >>will be silenced. Vincent Van Gogh >> >>401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 >>+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel >>jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com >><http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/>www.partnersinparticipation.com >> >>Upcoming public course opportunities: >>ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012 >>ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012 >>The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012 >>Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the >>Technology of Participation program is >>available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 >>See short video >>http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. >> >>--- On Mon, 6/11/12, Timothy Wegner <twegner(a)swbell.net> wrote: >> >>From: Timothy Wegner <twegner(a)swbell.net> >>Subject: [Dialogue] <http://wedgeblade.net/>wedgeblade.net is back up. >>To: "oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" >><oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net>, >>"dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> >>Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:24 AM >> >>Wedgeblade.net has actually been up since >>yesterday, but I just received a message from >>our host that their backup restore is complete. >>All is good. In fact, all is good even when the >>website is down! Tim ---------- Sent from >>AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email >>_______________________________________________ >>Dialogue mailing >>listDialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Dialogue mailing >>list<mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net<http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Dialogue mailing list >><mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >_______________________________________________ >Dialogue mailing list >Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net > >_______________________________________________Dialogue >mailing >list<mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net<http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net > >_______________________________________________ >Dialogue mailing list >Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

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