July 2012 - Dialogue - lists.wedgeblade.net

what is the right question these days?
by KarenBueno＠aol.com 09 Aug '12

09 Aug '12

Let's talk. Is it "How are we to live together and preserve this planet for the future?" ? In a message dated 6/29/2012 6:07:33 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com writes: Ah, what is the right question these days? Right questions?? Jim Wiegel _Jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com_ (mailto:Jfwiegel@yahoo.com) “One cannot live in the afternoon of life according to the program of life’ s morning; for what was great in the morning will be of little importance in the evening, and what in the morning was true will at evening have become a lie.” – Carl Jung Partners in Participation Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012 ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video _http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55_ (http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55) and website for further details. On Jun 29, 2012, at 0:11, "David Walters" <_walters(a)alaweb.com_ (mailto:walters@alaweb.com) > wrote: The problem with gathering Spong describes is just another event where people come together and talk and talk and always ask the wrong question. The one thing I learned during my time in the Order was the value of asking the right question, especially during those hot sweaty summers of the west side of Chicago. -David Walters --- _elliestock(a)aol.com_ (mailto:elliestock@aol.com) wrote: From: Ellie Stock <_elliestock(a)aol.com_ (mailto:elliestock@aol.com) > To: _dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net_ (mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net) , _oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net_ (mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net) Subject: [Dialogue] 6/28/12, Spong: My Way into an Interfaith Future Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 16:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Sent from Chautauqua where Spong is speaking every afternoon. (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=…) _Homepage_ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=…) _My Profile_ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id… daa597) _Essay Archive_ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=…) _Message Boards_ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=…) _Calendar_ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=…) My Way into an Interfaith Future Last week I introduced you, my readers, to an interfaith “think tank” in which I shared recently at a conference center known as the Chautauqua Institution in Western New York. Some fifty leaders from among all the major religious systems of the world gathered there to explore the common ground that might lead to deeper interfaith cooperation and appreciation. The goal seemed desirable and all of the participants came with hope and excitement. The need for interfaith cooperation is apparent all over the world. Where divergent religious systems confront each other, violence almost always ensues. One has only to look for documentation at the Jewish-Moslem conflict in the Middle East, the Hindu-Moslem conflict between Pakistan and India, the Christian-Islamic violence that cuts across Africa, the Catholic-Protestant tensions in Ireland or the Sunni-Shia conflict that keeps Islam divided in the Middle East. One could also look at Christian history to see the anti-Semitism of the ages, the violence of the Crusades directed against Islam, or the Thirty Years’ War in Europe that followed the Reformation as both Protestant Europe and Catholic Europe sought to impose its faith on the other. This reality forces us to ask what there is about religion in most of its forms that makes violence all but inevitable as it appears to be in religious history. At the Chautauqua conference it did not take long for this flaw to be revealed. Indeed, it became present and visible in the first presentation. This presentation was given by Dr. John Cavadini, a Roman Catholic Professor of Theology from Notre Dame. The Roman Catholic Church articulates its claim to supremacy quite overtly. The current pope has reiterated a position taken by his predecessor that there is but one true religion and that is Christianity and that there is only one true version of Christianity and that is the Roman Catholic Church! He went on to warn those Catholics engaged in ecumenical relations that they should never refer to other Christian traditions as “sister churches,” since that implies some legitimacy. When that point of view is publicly articulated there is a genuine embarrassment in the listening audience. Such an attitude makes any significant conversation aimed at unity a rather worthless activity. Professor Cavalini tried at our gathering, unsuccessfully I believe, to navigate these troubled waters by making a distinction between revealed truth and our understanding of this truth. The central Christian doctrine of the Incarnation was not subject to debate, he said, but the way we understand that doctrine is always unfolding. Lest the blame for interfaith failure be placed too heavily on Roman Catholic shoulders, let me hasten to say that almost every religious tradition makes similar claims to be the exclusive possessor of revealed and “saving” truth. Protestant fundamentalists assert that the Bible is the literal “ word of God” and those denying that claim are either to be condemned or subjected to conversion pressure. Protestant evangelicals believe that the prerequisite for salvation is that one must be “born again” or “accept Jesus as their personal savior.” Muslims make the Islamic claim that in the Koran the Word of God was dictated directly to the prophet Muhammad. Within Islam itself both the Sunnis and the Shia claim that theirs is the only true expression of that faith tradition. Other sacred writings from the religions of the East are similarly invested with claims of being vessels through which the absolute truth of God has come into human possession. These claims that ultimate truth is the possession of a particular religious system are what make interfaith conversation all but impossible. The attempt to be open, to understand or to appreciate another faith perspective is thus deeply threatening to every religious system. One of the things that every religious system seeks to do is to offer religious certainty and for that to be possible that religion must escape the quicksand of relativity. Relativity, at the same time, is almost always impossible to escape without falling into religious triumphalism. At the Chautauqua “think tank” these problems were quickly identified and named. We could not start without finding a new way into the interfaith issue. As I thought about this over the next few days I tried to discover that illusive new path. Let me try to outline it briefly. The first step in any interfaith process is to be conscious of the fact that these exclusive claims exist and that we must begin where people are, not with where we wish they were. No one speaks in a vacuum and no one listens in a vacuum. We need to listen to each other closely, the same way we want others to listen to us. Let me then begin this process autobiographically. I am a Christian. Any interfaith activity in which I am engaged must start with that fact. I am not apologetic about this self-identification, nor am I willing to jettison this definition of myself for the sake of interfaith unity. The deepest commitment of my life is my commitment to walk the Christ path as my doorway into the mystery of God. Christianity is of absolute importance to me. I want to explore its wonders as deeply as I possibly can. Yet, I do not think that God is a Christian, certainly not in any creedal way, and that insight opens me up to all kinds of new possibilities. Christianity, like every other religious system in history is clearly a human creation that has evolved over the centuries. The virgin birth, for example, did not enter the Christian tradition until the ninth decade of the Christian era. It was certainly not a part of primitive Christianity. Neither Paul nor Mark appears ever to have heard about such an idea. The ascension was a tenth decade addition. Surely a quick reading of Paul would reveal that Paul was not a Trinitarian. The doctrines of the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity were not worked out until the third and fourth centuries. Doctrines are always attempts to put rational forms onto a transformative experience. Doctrines, therefore, can never be ultimate, but the experience that made the development of the doctrine seem proper might well be. Can we then separate the God experience that we Christians believe we have met in Jesus from the explanations of that experience which form the content of our faith tradition? That is a crucial distinction. The Jesus experience might well offer me a doorway into that which is ultimate, but Christianity itself cannot be ultimate and it thus cannot be the final revelation of God. God can never be contained inside any human form or bound by any human words. This means that neither my understanding of God nor my Church ’s understanding of God can ever be ultimate. This realization does not, however, invalidate the truth of my experience. As a Christian, I walk the Christ path. My deepest hope is that if I walk the Christ path long enough and faithfully enough, I will discover that I inevitably will transcend the boundaries of my own religion. That reality thus becomes a religious inevitability. When I articulate the fact that this is true for me I discover that it also seems to be true for people in all other religious systems. The Muslim must walk the Islamic path; the Jews must walk the Jewish path; the Hindus and Buddhists must walk the Hindu or Buddhist path. All walk with the realization, however, that God is not a Muslim, a Jew, a Hindu or a Buddhist. All religious systems are designed by human beings to help its adherents walk into the mystery of an unbounded God. If any of us walks our own faith path long enough and faithfully enough, we will discover that our walk carries us beyond the boundaries of our own religious systems, since God can never be limited by or exhausted in any thing that is a human creation, whether it be scripture, creeds, doctrines or dogmas. To say it boldly the God experience may well be ultima te, but the religious system through which we walk into the God experience can never be. The next realization comes when we discover that while we are walking our separate paths, we are also taking into ourselves the values and the treasures found in our own tradition. We hold these treasures close to our hearts; we do not want to lose them. I grasp joyfully the pearl of great price that Christianity gives me. Then I realize that my brothers and sisters in Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism are doing exactly the same. They must embrace the treasures of their religion and cling to the pearl of great price that they have received from their religious system. So perhaps the deepest and the common religious call to each of us is not to affirm our unique creeds so much as it is to explore our faith so deeply that we each transcend its boundaries and escape fear-laden limits. Then beyond the boundaries and the limits of the faith system that has nurtured each of us, but without sacrificing the pearl of great price that our own tradition has given us, we can turn and face in a new way our brothers and sisters who have walked a path different from our own. In that setting I can speak to them and say: “This is the essence of my faith. This is the treasure that I have received as I walked the Christ path and now I want to share this treasure with you.” Each of my interfaith pilgrims will in turn do the same. They will say to me: “This is the essence of Judaism, of Islam, of Hinduism, of Buddhism. This is the treasure, the pearl of great price that I have received by walking faithfully and deeply the path of my religion and I want to share it with you.” We each receive the treasure of the other. No one has to sacrifice the treasure of the system which has nurtured him or her. We all become enriched. We no longer have to protect our truth or play the familiar religious games of supremacy that we have so often played in the past. No one loses, everyone gains. The alternative to genuine interfaith cooperation may well be genocide. While we can assert that there is no relativity in the God experience, there can also be no triumphalism in the various explanations of that experience. No religion is therefore ultimate, but God is and God is met on many paths and our call is to walk our path faithfully. In that realization, the beauty of an interfaith future is born. ~John Shelby Spong Read the essay online _here_ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=…) . ____________________________________ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=…) ____________________________________ Bishop Spong's Summer Session at the Pacific School of Religion! (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=…) _Re-Claiming the Bible in a Post-Christian World_ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=…) Instructor: _John Shelby Spong_ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=…) Dates and Times: One week: July 16-20, 9am - 1pm Description: Can the Bible, written 2000-3000 years ago, speak in any meaningful way to the 21st century? If it cannot, then is Christianity at an end? If it can, will Christianity look anything like what we have known in the past? Since creeds and doctrines are all constructed on the basis of what was believed to be "Biblical Truth," can any of the current formularies stand? Since liturgy is based on biblical definitions of sin, salvation and God, none of which make much sense to 21st century people, can Christianity tolerate the revolution that it faces? This class will be taught by one who has been a priest and bishop for 56 years with one foot in the institutional church and the other in the academic world of new insights. It is specifically designed for clergy and questing lay people. Course Credits & Cost: 1.5 credits - $990; audit - $495; 2.0 CEUs - $350 Course Number: BS-2117 (credit); BS-0003 (CEUs) Required Text: John Shelby Spong, Re-Claiming the Bible for a Non-Religious World, 2011 HarperCollins, San Francisco. Purchase _here_ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id… b34daa597) . Syllabus: _Re-Claiming the Bible in a Post-Christian World_ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=… 34daa597) _Register_ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id…) Question & Answer The Rev. Stuart Maywood from Norwood, Mass., and Naples, Florida, writes: Question: What is the role or place of Christian Education in Church School? It seems to me that much of what is taught is watered-down material of questionable worth. As a former pastor this was always an issue and it is more so now. It seems to me that we need better educated adults to live fully and then let the children follow. Answer: Dear Stuart, Thank you for your letter and for sharing your experience. I concur with your observation. I remember only two things from the years I spent going to Sunday school and neither of them had anything to do with content. I remember being slapped by my fourth grade Sunday school teacher for misbehaving (I have no idea what my offence was) and I remember my fifth grade teacher who was instructing us on the Ten Commandments and he skipped from the 6th commandment against killing to the 8th commandment against stealing. Noticing that he had omitted commandment number 7, I raised my hand and asked, “Mr. Darrow, why did you skip the commandment about adultery? What does it mean to commit adultery?” Threatened, my teacher responded with irritation saying, “You will learn about that when you get older!” Otherwise Sunday school content did not appear to penetrate my mind. Yet by some process, I picked up the cultural fundamentalism. I assumed there was a real ark filled with animals, that the ascension really meant that Jesus went into the sky of a three-tiered universe and that miracles were simply part of Jesus’ life. Whether I would have been able to absorb a critical study of the Bible at that time in my life, I do not know. I only know that I never was given the opportunity to find out. I agree that most Sunday school material is of little value, contributing to a view of God, who like Santa Claus, will someday have to be abandoned because we have grown up. On the other hand, the most exciting thing I did as a parish priest was to teach an adult Bible class every Sunday morning for an hour prior to our service of worship. Adults came in large numbers, sometimes dragging their children with them for Sunday school. I know that in those classes, I taught them as if I were teaching in a graduate school attended by adults who were capable of learning anything I knew. I know they were excited about the Bible, capable of embracing the controversy and tension of modern scholarship. And, finally, I know that out of that class each year, I recruited Sunday school teachers who were eager to pass on to the children the things that they had learned. That experience convinced me that the key to Christian education was to teach the adults. Still good Sunday school material is a help. I have read many Sunday school curricula – some commercially produced, some denominationally produced and some inter-denominationally produced. My first rule is to “do no harm,” by which I mean do not teach anything that you the teacher do not yourself believe; and my second rule is to teach nothing that the child will someday have to renounce. The Center for Progressive Christianity has just begun to produce church school materials. They have now completed material for children 6-10 years. It is the best I have ever read. It is not religious pabulum, but offers a critical approach to scripture. I recommend it. If you would like to learn more about it, email _admin(a)progressivechristianity.org_ (mailto:admin@progressivechristianity.org) , and they will send you more information on it. They hope to expand this beginning initiative into a full church school curriculum in time. That is, however, a difficult and expensive process. I hope it succeeds. I trust that this addresses your concerns. ~John Shelby Spong ____________________________________ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=…) ____________________________________ Read what Bishop Spong has to say about _A Joyful Path Progressive Christian Spiritual Curriculum for Young Hearts and Minds_ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=…) : "The great need in the Christian church is for a Sunday school curriculum for children that does not equate faith with having a pre-modern mind. The Center for Progressive Christianity has produced just that. Teachers can now teach children in Sunday school without crossing their fingers. I endorse it wholeheartedly." Announcements ____________________________________ (http://tcpc.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id…) ____________________________________ Subscribers, please remember that your subscription is automatically renewed. 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Re: [Dialogue] Whole-hearted questions, Whole-hearted Answers
by LAURELCG＠aol.com 31 Jul '12

31 Jul '12

New question: What is Too Much Information? Jann In a message dated 7/31/2012 5:22:44 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, stevehar11201(a)gmail.com writes: I got a 1 to 1 note from Joyce asking what's up with this Wiegel & Harrington exchange about questions. I'm guessing she's worried there is some kind of animus in our back-and-forth -or she thinks one or the other of us are in deep weeds of confusion. Just to be clear: I have no animus or upset going what so ever. I actually like Wiegel's questions. I'm thinking he is trying to open up some more powerful more lively discorse in this dialogue. Personally I like the idea of -sharper questions that move texting forward -sharper questions that cause interesting answers -koans, and cross-word puzzles that make you do an Arsinio Hall reaction like..."Makes you go hmmm?" I enjoy obscure references to our common and uncommon literature. Surely Wiegels carp quote [is he carping]? is out of the book the Ronin. So is my retort, by the way: "neither does the severed branch leave the tree" Didn't read the Ronin? Worth it and cheep on Amazon. I think Jack Gilles may have a list of the sections that used to be read as a bed time story in LENS seminars. I think Wiegel is on to something by inviting edgy questions and a more focused dialogue - especially in a year celebrating 50 years of past and envisioning 50 years of ICA future. By comparison, in the Soto Zen community there is a tradition called "Dokusan" where there is a public, pregnant exchange of views between the teacher & student about what is real and what is important. It often takes the form of Q & A but at a deeper more existential levels...almost anything goes that engages what is ready-to-hand in the exchange. Shunryu Suzukii's famous quote comes from this tradition: "In Beginner's Mind there are many possibilities, In Expert's Mind there are few. It implies that fresh questions and real inquiry create fresh answers; which in turn loose their freshness. Two short personal examples of teacher-student encounters Some questions become life-long inquiries. For example one time Kaye Hayes asked: "Steve, what is one thing that grounds you in history? I said immediately: Satyagraha: Gandhi's term for something like firm grasping for the truth." I'm stilly carrying around that question. It is still alive for me. Another time the Sarpanch of Maliwada asked me a question when Chan and I came to visit and to see what Maliwada was -long after the project was over. He offered me tea and I refused to drink it. He asked: "Steve, you came all this way and I see you refuse to drink my tea, why is this? I knew the answer immediately but couldn't say so I bowed Namaste fashion in silence. What I couldn't say but saw immediately that I was afraid to drink the tea boiled in water for fear of becoming ill. It was a foolish fear of course, but the deeper point, I was just just being a tourist in my own life at that moment, just passing through, full of thinking but very little being, very little doing, not much integrity -the kind of integrity that JWM called Maliwada Integrity where what you say and what you do actually fits together, you know you are not a tourist in your own life, just passing through on a tour. So in a Soto Community "Dokusan" type encounter, anyone can claim either the role: student or teacher. Often the student asks the teacher a question or offers an assertion, the teacher responds. Or it is the other way around the teacher asks, the student self-selects and engages the question. there is an 800 year tradition of recording these encounters with respect poetry, commentary and picking up the question again and again to squeeze new wisdom out of it. In the Q & A encounter people listen for the wisdom point not for animus, not for logic either. The Q & A proceeds until either the student or the teacher bows and steps back realizing the last point is the wisdom point and acknowledging it. The other listeners often "get it" too and write it down. There really is no "make wrong" no shame-making or cynicism, no animus, no snarky drive-bys. In the Q & A , it is a discourse to find out what's so and make what is actually so clear to everyone present: the student, the teacher and the audience. It is said to be how "Stones polishing each other" and learn to speak clearly & wholehearted. "Stones" also do real work besides real discourse. In non-poetic lingo some kinds of discourse are performative not just "words. See: "speech acts": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._L._Austin What IS the "proper" form of dialogue in the dialogue? What possibilities do you notice? More like this: -acknowledgement of the life and energy of colleagues? Yes -announcements? yes -personal epiphanies and realizations? yes -ICA hopes and dreams? yes Less like this [I say] -flights of wistful nostalgia for the past? Boring -ORID in a texting sequence? Meh. In text ORID is horrid. Gets processed in my in box not my heart -aimless chit-chat? Drivel. It drives people away like Wayne Elsworth -people opining more layers of self-referencing abstractions? Thank you Dr. Descartes, who thinks thinking comes 1st before being and doing which might come later [or not] Not every dialogue needs whole-hearted intentionality, of course. Returning to Joyce's question: what's up with you guys in the dialogue? It is a good question. My answer is polishing stones, learning to ask and answer wholehearted questions with wholehearted answers. I think this is what Wiegel might be up to. Anyway it is what I'm up for. Joyce's Q is like Brian Stanfield's story from Courage to Lead from his own acknowledged teacher Joe Pierce who had something to say at the Lusaka airport. The customs official asked: Have anything to declare Mr. Pierce. Mr Pierce answered the question full-out and whole-hearted. The official stepped back. Stanfield doesn't say if the customs official bowed - or not. Do you have anything to declare Mr. Wiegel? [heh, heh, heh] Steve -- Steve Harrington _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

1 0

Whole-hearted questions, Whole-hearted Answers
by steve har 31 Jul '12

31 Jul '12

I got a 1 to 1 note from Joyce asking what's up with this Wiegel & Harrington exchange about questions. I'm guessing she's worried there is some kind of animus in our back-and-forth -or she thinks one or the other of us are in deep weeds of confusion. Just to be clear: I have no animus or upset going what so ever. I actually like Wiegel's questions. I'm thinking he is trying to open up some more powerful more lively discorse in this dialogue. Personally I like the idea of -sharper questions that move texting forward -sharper questions that cause interesting answers -koans, and cross-word puzzles that make you do an Arsinio Hall reaction like..."Makes you go hmmm?" I enjoy obscure references to our common and uncommon literature. Surely Wiegels carp quote [is he carping]? is out of the book the Ronin. So is my retort, by the way: "neither does the severed branch leave the tree" Didn't read the Ronin? Worth it and cheep on Amazon. I think Jack Gilles may have a list of the sections that used to be read as a bed time story in LENS seminars. I think Wiegel is on to something by inviting edgy questions and a more focused dialogue - especially in a year celebrating 50 years of past and envisioning 50 years of ICA future. By comparison, in the Soto Zen community there is a tradition called "Dokusan" where there is a public, pregnant exchange of views between the teacher & student about what is real and what is important. It often takes the form of Q & A but at a deeper more existential levels...almost anything goes that engages what is ready-to-hand in the exchange. Shunryu Suzukii's famous quote comes from this tradition: "In Beginner's Mind there are many possibilities, In Expert's Mind there are few. It implies that fresh questions and real inquiry create fresh answers; which in turn loose their freshness. Two short personal examples of teacher-student encounters Some questions become life-long inquiries. For example one time Kaye Hayes asked: "Steve, what is one thing that grounds you in history? I said immediately: Satyagraha: Gandhi's term for something like firm grasping for the truth." I'm stilly carrying around that question. It is still alive for me. Another time the Sarpanch of Maliwada asked me a question when Chan and I came to visit and to see what Maliwada was -long after the project was over. He offered me tea and I refused to drink it. He asked: "Steve, you came all this way and I see you refuse to drink my tea, why is this? I knew the answer immediately but couldn't say so I bowed Namaste fashion in silence. What I couldn't say but saw immediately that I was afraid to drink the tea boiled in water for fear of becoming ill. It was a foolish fear of course, but the deeper point, I was just just being a tourist in my own life at that moment, just passing through, full of thinking but very little being, very little doing, not much integrity -the kind of integrity that JWM called Maliwada Integrity where what you say and what you do actually fits together, you know you are not a tourist in your own life, just passing through on a tour. So in a Soto Community "Dokusan" type encounter, anyone can claim either the role: student or teacher. Often the student asks the teacher a question or offers an assertion, the teacher responds. Or it is the other way around the teacher asks, the student self-selects and engages the question. there is an 800 year tradition of recording these encounters with respect poetry, commentary and picking up the question again and again to squeeze new wisdom out of it. In the Q & A encounter people listen for the wisdom point not for animus, not for logic either. The Q & A proceeds until either the student or the teacher bows and steps back realizing the last point is the wisdom point and acknowledging it. The other listeners often "get it" too and write it down. There really is no "make wrong" no shame-making or cynicism, no animus, no snarky drive-bys. In the Q & A , it is a discourse to find out what's so and make what is actually so clear to everyone present: the student, the teacher and the audience. It is said to be how "Stones polishing each other" and learn to speak clearly & wholehearted. "Stones" also do real work besides real discourse. In non-poetic lingo some kinds of discourse are performative not just "words. See: "speech acts": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._L._Austin What IS the "proper" form of dialogue in the dialogue? What possibilities do you notice? More like this: -acknowledgement of the life and energy of colleagues? Yes -announcements? yes -personal epiphanies and realizations? yes -ICA hopes and dreams? yes Less like this [I say] -flights of wistful nostalgia for the past? Boring -ORID in a texting sequence? Meh. In text ORID is horrid. Gets processed in my in box not my heart -aimless chit-chat? Drivel. It drives people away like Wayne Elsworth -people opining more layers of self-referencing abstractions? Thank you Dr. Descartes, who thinks thinking comes 1st before being and doing which might come later [or not] Not every dialogue needs whole-hearted intentionality, of course. Returning to Joyce's question: what's up with you guys in the dialogue? It is a good question. My answer is polishing stones, learning to ask and answer wholehearted questions with wholehearted answers. I think this is what Wiegel might be up to. Anyway it is what I'm up for. Joyce's Q is like Brian Stanfield's story from Courage to Lead from his own acknowledged teacher Joe Pierce who had something to say at the Lusaka airport. The customs official asked: Have anything to declare Mr. Pierce. Mr Pierce answered the question full-out and whole-hearted. The official stepped back. Stanfield doesn't say if the customs official bowed - or not. Do you have anything to declare Mr. Wiegel? [heh, heh, heh] Steve -- Steve Harrington

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What was the Question Again?
by Steve Har 31 Jul '12

31 Jul '12

Wiegel: The carp that yearns for a worm cannot be content with its diet of flies. Harrington: When the student is ready, the teacher appears...in coded words, empty handed and unwilling to strike a blow. What is your fundamental question? If you cant say does your teacher JWM have one that speaks to the future? Neither did the severed branch leave the tree, you say? Message from: Steve's iPad

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Re: [Dialogue] What was the question again?
by David Walters 30 Jul '12

30 Jul '12

Another Wiegellism? -David Walters --- jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com wrote: From: James Wiegel <jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: "dialogue(a)wedgeblade.net" <dialogue(a)wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] What was the question again? Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 07:03:04 -0300 The carp that yearns for a worm cannot be content with its diet of flies. Jim > Sorry I've lost track of Wiegel's quiz questions, they are diverting, > but I've lost track. What's the question again? > > Are we on Q # 53 or #89? > So far still feels like hacking at branches not roots, doesn't it? > > Propose Q #90 > Why is there a big gap between what you type, what you say and what you do? > > Q # 90.1 > When something is broken, why don't you clean up the mess? > > Q # 90.2 > Why do you sound like you get your opinions from some cable TV victim > news channel? > > Questions for myself only, of course > > Maybe you can set me right on the straight and narrow? > > > Steve Harrington > Jim Wiegel Jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com “One cannot live in the afternoon of life according to the program of life’s morning; for what was great in the morning will be of little importance in the evening, and what in the morning was true will at evening have become a lie.” – Carl Jung Partners in Participation Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012 ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. On Jul 29, 2012, at 14:41, steve har <stevehar11201(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry I've lost track of Wiegel's quiz questions, they are diverting, > but I've lost track. What's the question again? > > Are we on Q # 53 or #89? > So far still feels like hacking at branches not roots, doesn't it? > > Propose Q #90 > Why is there a big gap between what you type, what you say and what you do? > > Q # 90.1 > When something is broken, why don't you clean up the mess? > > Q # 90.2 > Why do you sound like you get your opinions from some cable TV victim > news channel? > > Questions for myself only, of course > > Maybe you can set me right on the straight and narrow? > > > > > -- > Steve Harrington > _______________________________________________ > Dialogue mailing list > Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

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The Three Moods in Christian Worship
by R Williams 30 Jul '12

30 Jul '12

Colleagues, A couple of weeks ago we had a conversation on this listserv about the acts of Worship. I remember distinctly that in the RS-1 short course on worship we said there are 3 overarching acts; Confession, Praise (or Thanksgiving) and Dedication. You may confirm this by reviewing the Daily Office that we did every morning. My focus has been more on what we said are the 3 "moods" associated with those acts of worship: for the act of confession the mood is humility; for thanksgiving, gratitude; and for dedication, compassion. I've been keeping journal notes on these for several years. I think they are key to our being profoundly human. I want to share some brief reflections and invite you to share your thoughts. The opposite of humility is arrogance. Tillich told us that "sin" is less about immoral acts and more about the state of "separation" in which we all live. I have concluded that confession in humility is not self-depreciation in light of our imperfection but is rather acknowledgement that we, in our separated state, are incomplete. We deny our interdependence on the "other" in our quest for self-sufficiency and self-determination, which are delusions. When we own up to our incompleteness (i.e. confess) in humility, this opens us, at the very least, to learning (i.e. having our hearts and minds changed, metanoia), and to entering into new relationships and friendships and partnering with all creation. The opposite of gratitude is greed. Old Testament scholar Walter Brueggemann has suggested that in our culture we need to move from a paradigm of scarcity to one of abundance. We may thus come to acknowledge that life is not a zero sum game, and that there is plenty for all as long as no one has more than her, his or its share. Gratitude is acknowledgment that we have all we need to live with dignity and to respond to our calling, as long as we are willing to share rather than hoard it, like the magician's urn of water, the more it's poured out, the fuller it becomes. The opposite of compassion is insensitivity to the suffering of the other, and gracelessness, the inability to be responsive to those who suffer. This, of course, plays off H. Richard Niebuhr's understanding of "church" as the "sensitive and responsive" part of society. So to be compassionate is to be "sensitive and responsive," which leads to living an active life service. I think of compassion more as something we "do" rather than something we "be." There is a sense in which all of these are inter-related to the extent that you can't talk about or embody any one of them without the other two. Humility leads one to be both grateful and compassionate. Gratitude has a prerequisite for humility, and is ultimately expressed in compassion. Compassion is humility and gratitude in action, i.e. the life of empathic service. We can see clearly how these three "moods" or "attitudes," as we called them, are appropriate to the 3 acts of Christian worship as we practiced it. But because we understand that worship is a rehearsal of, and is therefore transparent to, all of life as encountered in the world, we understand that there is nothing religious about humility, gratitude or compassion, but that these qualities are exhibited by all who decide to be "profoundly human." Randy "Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." -Martin Buber (adapted)

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What was the question again?
by steve har 30 Jul '12

30 Jul '12

Sorry I've lost track of Wiegel's quiz questions, they are diverting, but I've lost track. What's the question again? Are we on Q # 53 or #89? So far still feels like hacking at branches not roots, doesn't it? Propose Q #90 Why is there a big gap between what you type, what you say and what you do? Q # 90.1 When something is broken, why don't you clean up the mess? Q # 90.2 Why do you sound like you get your opinions from some cable TV victim news channel? Questions for myself only, of course Maybe you can set me right on the straight and narrow? -- Steve Harrington

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Fwd: Del's recovery
by George Holcombe 28 Jul '12

28 Jul '12

Just received this from Genevieve. We might want to send Del our best. George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda(a)earthlink.net Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hope—you do not have anything to do with it. It just appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an alien—it just appeareth! You do not even know why you hope. How in the world could you hope when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews Begin forwarded message: > From: "Del Morrill" <del(a)hypnocenter.com> > Subject: Del's recovery > Date: July 28, 2012 2:51:51 PM CDT > To: "'Del Morril'" <delhmor(a)wamail.net> > > Hello Friends, > This is Genevieve, Del’s youngest daughter, writing to you to give an update on her surgery last night and recovery. > > The surgery took approximately five and a half hours. The surgeon said that it could not have gone better and was very pleased. They took only three lymph nodes and will have pathology report on Wednesday, but it was everything as expected. Del is resting comfortably at Tacoma General. Was moved to the Oncology floor today and has a great team of professionals caring for her. > > Del asked me to let you know that she is doing well and appreciates your love and support. > > On behalf of her family we thank you as well! > Gen > > Del > > Del Hunter Morrill, M.S., N.B.C.C.H. > Personal Guide & Hypnotherapist, Teacher, Lecturer > And Author of the GREAT ESCAPES Script Volumes > > TRANSITIONS, a Center for Personal Guidance & Hypnosis > And home of NEW BEGINNINGS PUBLISHING > 3217 North Mason Avenue, Tacoma Washington 98407 USA > Phone (253) 383-5757; www.hypnocenter.com > > There can be nothing to frighten you if you refuse to be afraid. (Mahatma Gandhi) >

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I have enjoyed DIALOGUE, but please take me off of Dialogue
by Wayne Ellsworth 28 Jul '12

28 Jul '12

Thanks ever so much - but I just cannot keep up with all my inboxes! _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)wedgeblade.net http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net

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Re: [Dialogue] I have enjoyed DIALOGUE, but please take me off of Dialogue
by David Walters 28 Jul '12

28 Jul '12

I got a call the other day from someone on this who had been trying to figure out who I was from rading my comments I Said I thought I remembered him from the Summer program in 1970. "Oh yes, I worked on building a box with a bunch of switches that made different colored lights go on and off". That of course was the imfamous "Electric Grid of 24 Tactical Systems of the Local Church Experiment." Their was also a young engineer named Wayne B. Ellsworth who did most of the work on this wonderful contraption. It even had a WBE switch which only seemed to work for you, Wayne. All of this is to say stay with us Wayne and if your mail box gets to full just hit the WBE key on your keyboard and see what happens I would like to know if the Electric Grid is in the Archives in the basement of Kemper. Or maybe some pitures. -David Walters --- wayne(a)icajapan.org wrote: From: Wayne Ellsworth <wayne(a)icajapan.org> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue(a)wedgeblade.net> Subject: [Dialogue] I have enjoyed DIALOGUE, but please take me off of Dialogue Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 21:00:47 +0900 Thanks ever so much - but I just cannot keep up with all my inboxes! _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)wedgeblade.net http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

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