Hi John, Randy, George, Bill, Jim et al, I have appreciated this exchange, and especially thank Jim W. for calling my attention to the fine statement from the delegation from our New England Conference. Over the years voices from the northeast have often been "outliers" among those of other Conferences (including the General Conference.) I thank Bishop Jim Mathews (who served us in NE well back in the 1960s and was long respected as an exemplar of wise pastoral leadership and just administrative practices) for his legacy, echoed in the statement Jim referenced. Let's keep listening.... Grace and peace, Marilyn PS Wonder if M. George or Maynard have insights to add? On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 03:29:06 -0700 (PDT) R Williams <rcwmbw@yahoo.com> writes: Bill, Christianity was a movement for about 300 years before it became institutionalized, so I would have to say that in most cases movements give birth to institutions, not the other way around. True, many of us came to the spirit movement from the local church, but for me at least, it was because the movement seemed a legitimate alternative to what wasn't working in the institution. I agree with George about the value of the symbolic life, the wisdom literature and the historic traditions, but what I see going on in within the institution of the church today is what we called "institutionalism" in the RS-1 church lecture. The church abdicates its mission of serving the world and decides to make building and preserving the institution its priority, and that's a perversion. Current examples of that for me--the UMC and the decisions of the General Conference regarding LGBT inclusiveness, and the Catholic Church with (1) the law suit filed by the Catholic bishops in the U.S. against the government regarding the health care law and contraception, and (2) the harassment of nuns in this country by the Vatican. I know there are obvious exceptions to what I am saying, but I fear my examples are indicative of the dominant trend. Whether a movement or an institution, religious or secular, its purpose must be to serve something greater than itself. If it can appease the powers that be, keep its constituents happy and balance the budget while doing that, fine. But it's when those institutional chores become more important than the mission to serve, that it becomes perverse. Even with corporations a lot of insightful business people are saying that the purpose of business is not to make a profit but to serve its stakeholders (not just its shareholders), and that profit is the way it keeps score. Like saying that breathing is necessary to sustain a human life but breathing is not the reason for that life to exist. Where the mission to serve gets lost or dumbed down, whether in the religious or secular movement or the religious or secular institution, the entity becomes at best irrelevant and at worst destructive. Randy "Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." -Martin Buber (adapted) From: Bill Parker <bparker175@cox.net> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime" George, I think your statement about the institutional church is an important insight that is easily overlooked in the midst of our frustration with the church. We make a mistake when we expect the institutional church to fulfill the criteria of the movemental church. That is not who or what they are. They have powers to contend with, budgets to meet, programs to conduct to keep their constituencies happy with the church as an institution. They are stationary in scope, intent, and form plus they often appear to be shallow, misguided and self serving. Yet, it is the source, the birthplace of the movemental religious. When you think about it, it is like a lot of us expect insurance companies to take responsibility for our healthcare system. That is not their job. That is the job of the society who wants to make sure people have access to healthcare. We can't expect that from a corporation, that is not what a corporation is. Anyway.....just thinking, Thanks, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: George Holcombe To: Colleague Dialogue Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in,sounds like the "council of a lifetime" With Joe being a Methodist and Slicker a Presbyterian, we can look at ourselves as a movement that sprang from the institutional church, and there are others, even now. I think Joe was right when he said that the institutional church was dead some years ago. However, there is lots of life within the movemental church dynamic, and that includes all the religions, that springs from institutional religion. What's interesting about the institutional expressions of religion is that they hold on to the symbols and scriptures, the history, etc. even when they misinterpret and misrepresent them. George Holcombe14900 Yellowleaf Tr.Austin, TX 78728Mobile 512/252-2756geowanda@earthlink.net Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hope�you do not have anything to do with it. It just appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an alien�it just appeareth! You do not even know why you hope. How in the world could you hope when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:52 PM, R Williams wrote: In the midst of the turmoil the church is going through this is one of the most hopeful pieces I've seen. The primary question for me is, can a church that has been so embedded in institutional structures for so long realistically be expected to reverse course and again become a movemental presence? Randy "Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires."-Martin Buber (adapted) From: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> To: "oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:42 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime" http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-del egation-no-common-identity-for-umc/ Jim Wiegel If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced. Vincent Van Gogh 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012 ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. --- On Mon, 6/11/12, Timothy Wegner <twegner@swbell.net> wrote: From: Timothy Wegner <twegner@swbell.net> Subject: [Dialogue] wedgeblade.net is back up. To: "oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>, "dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:24 AM Wedgeblade.net has actually been up since yesterday, but I just received a message from our host that their backup restore is complete. All is good. In fact, all is good even when the website is down! Tim ---------- Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing listDialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing listDialogue@lists.wedgeblade.nethttp://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi /dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________Dialogue mailing listDialogue@lists.wedgeblade.nethttp://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi /dialogue-wedgeblade.net Dr. Marilyn R. Crocker 123 Sanborn Road West Newfield, ME 04095