December 2012 - Dialogue - lists.wedgeblade.net

Re: [Dialogue] [Oe List ...] more on guns
by jonzondo＠juno.com 18 Dec '12

18 Dec '12

Thank you, Gordon. I love the dimension of your share. There are so many conversations which are needed now... and an ongoing dialogue for many years is part of what is needed. In addition to talking about guns and gun culture we also need to talk about: *mental health care *schools as factories *how we as a country address fears *how we care for the totality of each other (mental care, physical care, emotional care, elder care, child care, etc) *the role of government *how can we re-create government, or differently put, how we re-claim government *how to better listen to anyone who is alienated or hurting *how to move from the paradigm of punishment to a more holistic paradigm of justice and growth for all involved. My list goes on and on. and from my fifth city days I know that we need to work with "all the issues, all the time". From my native teachers I know that "we are all in this together, and we have to work together to get the work done". Thanks to everyone for every step you are taking... no matter how small. Jon Mark Elizondo ____________________________________________________________ Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50d0bb008e1093b002c27st02vuc Since I'm part of this problem and hopelessly complicit in sustaining it, I'll start with a little confession. Like many of us, I grew up in a gun culture, in my case as a Wisconsin farm boy. I loved the various rifles and handguns I accumulated over those early years, and I continued to sharpen my target shooting through college and graduate school and even as a young professor (never really had the heart for hunting). I was (full disclosure) a member of the NRA starting in high school, so that I could get my cases of 22 ammo for a pittance. (I dropped my membership while in college, when the organization started to morph into the right wing entity that we see today.) When our family joined the symbolic order and moved to the West Side, I got rid of everything except for a special treasure, my Ruger Single Six (replica Colt six-gun) with its beautiful rosewood grips and fancy Mexican fast draw holster. Lane Erskine and I used to enjoy sharing our fascination with our handguns' workmanship. Unlike Lane, who was given to packing heat as he moved about in 5th City, I kept mine unloaded and in a locked case in our room. After a few months, however, I became concerned that even with those safeguards, in our community, with the kids having easy access to everyone's rooms, it was too much of a risk. With great sadness, I took my beloved revolver and holster to a gun shop in Wisconsin and sold them, thus ending my gun ownership phase. When it came time, a few years later, to decide which of my siblings would inherit our father's firearms, I chose not to participate in the distribution. I start with this to make the point that what we're dealing with in this gun culture lies very deep in many of us. I've had--and still have--a love affair with the classic American Western film. This is a tradition that exalts the single shootist, who is able to do good and make things right for others precisely because he has at least one sidearm and when necessary uses it well. I see myself mirrored in the fascination of young people today for all the first person shooter games, battlefield adventures and standing one's ground against those hordes of attacking vampires. It's a manifestation of our special culture as Americans, with our frontier tradition and mythology. Which in turn is an aspect of what we sometimes refer to as the concept of American exceptionalism. To deal seriously with gun violence, it seems to me, is to take on the challenge of shifting these profoundly rooted national and personal images and stories of who we are. They are so much a part of us that we hardly ever feel the need to talk about them--they're simply assumed, taken for granted as part of the common ground we share as Americans. We all grieve when events like those of this past week occur, and we feel personal shock and pain when one of them hits close to home. At the same time, at some deep level we also find our way to accepting these occurrences as the tragic but necessary side effects of our special nature as a frontier people and the unique role of our nation in the world. It's like the collateral war damage to innocent people that we've accustomed ourselves to living with. We lament it, and we truly want to keep it to the bare minimum, but we also feel that our historical role requires our paying this cost (a bit of White Man's Burden, /redivivus/). Theologically, there's a strong connection here with the myth of redemptive violence, which provides a religious rationale for many among us to accept the way things are and for at least part of the deep resistance we encounter to changing the gun laws. I suspect that we will now begin to see some modest changes in access to semi-automatic weapons, some improvements in preventing, spotting and caring for mental illness, maybe even more support for our educational systems. I'm hoping it's also a point in time where we will see, in various formats and venues, the start of the conversation about our national identity and values that we very much need to have. What I find myself looking for are ways to engage our neighbors and ourselves in surfacing and exploring together these largely unquestioned images and stories that so powerfully shape our behavior. What is really special or exceptional about America--the good, the bad and the ugly--relative to what is special and exceptional about any other nation and people? How are we to understand that exceptionalism, and what do we do with it in today's world? Some of us might like to get rid of the whole idea of exceptionalism, but I think in this country, it's there, and we have to engage it. Doing so, it seems to me, is key to that long range and indirect strategy we've been talking about in this conversation. It's essential if we're to have a real shot at changing the images from which we continue to act and from which we and others continue to suffer. Engaging these conversations, I'm afraid, means welcoming and listening deeply to those with whom we strongly disagree--sharing and discussing together what we think the times call us to preserve in our heritage, what to leave behind and what to recreate. If it's to work, it will have to be uncomfortably inclusive, in a big tent, as the Occupy folk like to say. We could begin to start such conversations in our workplaces, our churches, our book groups, our community meetings, at the pub or coffee shop, over dinner with friends, on line, using all these wonderful social media tools. It's something each of us could tackle, if we chose to, without much of an organizational structure. Maybe down the road at some point, . . . . Is this a tactic--and a conversation--we want to be part of? Gordon On 12/17/2012 1:45 PM, jlepps(a)pc.jaring.my wrote: > Colleagues > > I'd like to add one more note to this lively dialogue (which I hope > continues, and perhaps even begins to focus). > > It's obviously the case that a change of heart is required in this > situation. The question becomes how to make that happen, and I'm > reminded of Martin Luther Kings's response to us WASPS who were > opposing desegregation because "we need to have hearts change to > support integration." To paraphrase him, "Laws can't make you love me, > but they may prevent you from killing me." Strict gun control may be > that kind of law. And, IMHO, whatever will prevent this sort of mass > murder is worth doing. Also I've noticed that hearts are remarkably > adaptable to their external situation. > > In terms of luring the tiger, the question now that she's out of her > lair (sorry Cynthia), what do we do: well perhaps something initial > like forbidding the sale of assault weapons and mass magazines. That > might be able to get some support from tigers. After all, we endure > considerable inconvenience to insure safety on airplanes,, so perhaps > the inconvenience of forbidding access to these instruments of mass > destruction might be a possible first step. > > I don't believe we'll be able to change tigers into lambs, but maybe > we can help de-fang them! > > John > > _______________________________________________ > OE mailing list > OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net >

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(no subject)
by Carl Ennis 17 Dec '12

17 Dec '12

http://scottgoodacre.co.uk/wp-content/themes/choices/images/heybuddy.php

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Sufficient unto the day is the contradiction there of
by Paula Philbrook 17 Dec '12

17 Dec '12

Sufficient unto the day is the contradiction there of. . . . I have carried this phrase in my head since Town Meeting days. What is the contradiction? In the Fifth City process we identified the VICTIM IMAGE as the underlying spirit problem or contraction, has that changed in our life times? Daughter, Rebekah, writes and is the content editor of Dictionary.com. They selected bluster as the word of the year for 2012. (follow this link if you want to read about it- http://hotword.dictionary.com/bluster/) In the article, she says you cannot solve a problem until you articulate it. Is that right? The culture of drugs, guns, domestic violence, excess consumption, and bullying, all point to a similar underlying contradiction-deep personal isolation coupled with a vacuum or absence of community has produced a mindset of "super" power individuals. *The individual is more important than the whole. * * * The victim image was from the Freedom section of RSI, I keep thinking this contradiction is related to the last section, the CHURCH. There is no WE. Paula *Gratitude unlocks the fullness of life. It turns what we have into enough, and more. It turns denial into acceptance, chaos to order, confusion to clarity. It can turn a meal into a feast, a house into a home, a stranger into a friend. Gratitude makes sense of our past, brings peace for today, and creates a vision for tomorrow*. *Melody* Beattie

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Thinking the Unthinkable
by facilitationfla＠aol.com 17 Dec '12

17 Dec '12

An important article to read: re lack of health care for mentally ill -- in light of Sandy Hook http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/ I tried to send the article to Chris Hayes (Up with Chris) and asked him to have program on this subject. Her other article -- War on women (October?) was also very good Cynthia Vance

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Re: [Dialogue] Guns
by David Walters 17 Dec '12

17 Dec '12

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Re: [Dialogue] Guns
by David Walters 17 Dec '12

17 Dec '12

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Guns
by jlepps＠pc.jaring.my 17 Dec '12

17 Dec '12

Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents: I. CONTEXT I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill). For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes. So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity. One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible. II. IDEAS In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you. Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above. So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument. To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!) Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!) In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate. In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo… Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!). Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas. Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary. John

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Re: [Dialogue] Sandy Hook and Gun Control: Something to do
by George Holcombe 16 Dec '12

16 Dec '12

If you have don't this already. here is something you can do right now. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/immediately-address-issue-gun-con… George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda(a)earthlink.net Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hope—you do not have anything to do with it. It just appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an alien—it just appeareth! You do not even know why you hope. How in the world could you hope when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews

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Carolyn Lukensmeyer
by Donald Bushman 16 Dec '12

16 Dec '12

I worked with her when she was Dick Celeste's chief of staff.

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Re. Start the conversation
by Michael Shaw 15 Dec '12

15 Dec '12

How do we let others know our concern and willingness to engage? Is the email. Below relevant to the conversation? Peace, Michael sent from my phone Begin forwarded message: > From: "Chris Bowers, Daily Kos" <campaigns(a)dailykos.com> > Date: December 15, 2012, 11:22:26 PST > To: D.michael.shaw(a)comcast.net > Subject: We have to talk about this > Reply-To: campaigns(a)dailykos.com > > > Douglas, please click here to sign our petition asking President Obama to help start a national conversation about gun control. > > If we don't start talking now, when will we ever? And if the president doesn't lead the discussion, who will? > > Please click here to sign the petition. We will deliver the signatures to the White House. > > Thank you, > Chris Bowers > Campaign Director, Daily Kos > > P.S. Please help keep Daily Kos strong by chipping in $3. > To unsubscribe from ALL Daily Kos emails, visit this link. To opt-out ONLY from action emails, visit this link. >

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