A high school classmate of mine posted this on facebook. I am trying to get what is actually being pointed to . . . Jim Wiegel Ralph Scottabout an hour ago · ~COLUMBINE STUDENT’S FATHER SPEAKS 12 YEARS LATER !! Guess our national leaders didn’t expect this. On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee’s subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness.. The following is a portion of the transcript: “Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers. “The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain’s heart. “In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don’t believe that they are responsible for my daughter’s death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel’s murder I would be their strongest opponent I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy — it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. Your laws ignore our deepest needs, Your words are empty air. You’ve stripped away our heritage, You’ve outlawed simple prayer. Now gunshots fill our classrooms, And precious children die. You seek for answers everywhere, And ask the question “Why?” You regulate restrictive laws, Through legislative creed. And yet you fail to understand, That God is what we need! “Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation’s history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine’s tragedy occurs —politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. “As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA — I give to you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone! My daughter’s death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!” - Darrell Scott Jim Wiegel ". . . In this whole world i don't know a more sly, more cunning, useful virtue than sheer dizzy pluck!" The Odyssey A Modern Sequel. Nikos Kazantzakis 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Feb 12-13, May 21-22, Sept 17-18, 2013 ToP Strategic Planning, Nov 12-13, 2013 Facilitation Graphics, March 19, 2013 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Nov 2, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP courses
Perhaps this sheds some light: http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/scott.asp Diann McCabe, San Marcos, TX From: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com<mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com>> Reply-To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Date: Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:57 PM To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Guns A high school classmate of mine posted this on facebook. I am trying to get what is actually being pointed to . . .<https://www.facebook.com/ralph.scott.14> Jim Wiegel Ralph Scott<https://www.facebook.com/ralph.scott.14> about an hour ago<https://www.facebook.com/ralph.scott.14/posts/3652416283679> · ~COLUMBINE STUDENT’S FATHER SPEAKS 12 YEARS LATER !! Guess our national leaders didn’t expect this. On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee’s subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness.. The following is a portion of the transcript: “Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers. “The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain’s heart. “In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don’t believe that they are responsible for my daughter’s death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel’s murder I would be their strongest opponent I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy — it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. Your laws ignore our deepest needs, Your words are empty air. You’ve stripped away our heritage, You’ve outlawed simple prayer. Now gunshots fill our classrooms, And precious children die. You seek for answers everywhere, And ask the question “Why?” You regulate restrictive laws, Through legislative creed. And yet you fail to understand, That God is what we need! “Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation’s history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine’s tragedy occurs —politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. “As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA — I give to you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone! My daughter’s death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!” - Darrell Scott Jim Wiegel ". . . In this whole world i don't know a more sly, more cunning, useful virtue than sheer dizzy pluck!" The Odyssey A Modern Sequel. Nikos Kazantzakis 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel jfwiegel@yahoo.com<mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com> www.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Feb 12-13, May 21-22, Sept 17-18, 2013 ToP Strategic Planning, Nov 12-13, 2013 Facilitation Graphics, March 19, 2013 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Nov 2, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP courses
David, This community knows the power of Town Meeting. The method works, regardless of the topic. The effectiveness lies in the universal truth of trusting people who know their situation to create solutions. We have hundreds of documented success and thousands of communities that benefited. We haven't discovered any thing that would lead to any other conclusion than it will work. That said, I personally, speaking only for myself, feel that the World Cafe method would be a better forum for this issue. Jack Sent from my iPad On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:46 PM, David Walters <walters@alaweb.com> wrote: I think that the folks who recently spent time in the atchives going thru the TM files need to tell us their reflections on this body of materials what that could tell us about doing TMs in the future. -David Walters --- wmbailey@charter.net wrote: From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Guns Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 21:34:29 -0500 Now that we have a name of a person to present a plan for community dialogues and assuming that Don will contact Carolyn Lukensmeyer. We need a plan for TMs! Are there some "old hands" willing to work on process/design? Proposal? Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 5:27 PM, Don Bushman wrote: I worked closely with her when she was Dick Celeste's chief of staff. On Dec 15, 2012 5:21 PM, "Wilson Priscilla" <Pris@teamtechpress.com> wrote: Does anyone know Carolyn J. Lukensmeyer...who founded and was the president of America*Speaks.* She is now Executive Director of the National Institute for Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona. America*Speaks* led a 5,000 person Town Meeting discourse in NYC when the plans first came out for rebuilding Ground Zero. I was a table facilitator...and quite impressed with the folks they managed to reach. Talking with her about a "national" sponsor might produce something. I think the conversation about needing ways to pull together TM type events in multiple locations makes sense. All of this after the continuing dialogue here...but it needs to go beyond that. Priscilla Wilson On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jack Gilles wrote: Marianna, TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better. Jack Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote: What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops. Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote: John, I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety. Jack Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote: Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents: *I. CONTEXT *I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill). For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes. So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity. One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible. *II. IDEAS *In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, *"Lure the Tiger out of the mountains."* The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you. Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above. So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument. To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!) Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!) In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate. In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-... Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!). Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas. Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary. John _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net Priscilla H Wilson Pris@TeamTechPress.com 913-432-2107 www.teamtechpress.com _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Dialogue%40lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
I think guns are a cultural issue. It is going to take far more than laws to solve the gun problem. What about the Institute of Cultural Affairs, could they create a national workshop/conversation? Perhaps in collaboration with another group. I think ICA is more likely to create a conversation and pull together that get to the spirit issue. Marianna On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:09 AM, Jack Gilles wrote:
David,
This community knows the power of Town Meeting. The method works, regardless of the topic. The effectiveness lies in the universal truth of trusting people who know their situation to create solutions. We have hundreds of documented success and thousands of communities that benefited. We haven't discovered any thing that would lead to any other conclusion than it will work. That said, I personally, speaking only for myself, feel that the World Cafe method would be a better forum for this issue.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:46 PM, David Walters <walters@alaweb.com> wrote:
I think that the folks who recently spent time in the atchives going thru the TM files need to tell us their reflections on this body of materials what that could tell us about doing TMs in the future.
-David Walters
--- wmbailey@charter.net wrote:
From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Guns Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 21:34:29 -0500
Now that we have a name of a person to present a plan for community dialogues and assuming that Don will contact Carolyn Lukensmeyer. We need a plan for TMs! Are there some "old hands" willing to work on process/design? Proposal? Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 5:27 PM, Don Bushman wrote:
I worked closely with her when she was Dick Celeste's chief of staff. On Dec 15, 2012 5:21 PM, "Wilson Priscilla" <Pris@teamtechpress.com> wrote: Does anyone know Carolyn J. Lukensmeyer...who founded and was the president of AmericaSpeaks. She is now Executive Director of the National Institute for Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona. AmericaSpeaks led a 5,000 person Town Meeting discourse in NYC when the plans first came out for rebuilding Ground Zero. I was a table facilitator...and quite impressed with the folks they managed to reach. Talking with her about a "national" sponsor might produce something.
I think the conversation about needing ways to pull together TM type events in multiple locations makes sense. All of this after the continuing dialogue here...but it needs to go beyond that. Priscilla Wilson
On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
Marianna,
TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote:
What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops. Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
John,
I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote:
Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents:
I. CONTEXT I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill).
For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes.
So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity.
One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible.
II. IDEAS In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you.
Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above.
So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument.
To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!)
Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!)
In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate.
In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-...
Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!).
Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas.
Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary.
John
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Priscilla H Wilson Pris@TeamTechPress.com 913-432-2107 www.teamtechpress.com
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
It's not like nothing is going to be done on this if we don't do it. The national conversation is already raging, so the question is, how do we participate in order to add value to the process that's already underway, offering our particular expertise. We could ask the ICA-USA to provide some kind of institutional sponsorship if we were going to try to mount a national conversation, but I don't see us launching that kind of centralized effort. Keep in mind, the ICA has a very small staff and we are the hands and mouths when the ICA does something. We are already dispersed across the nation in at least two ways? One is the ToP network and the other is the rest of us who may not be ToP trainers and facilitators but we know how to take people to the depths in conversation and dialogue, and most of us are engaged in our local communities and local organizations--schools, churches, civic associations, service clubs, etc. Why not use the connections we have? Using the approach of the World Cafe, or anything that gets people doing things that that lead to change, perhaps each of us in the communities where we are could initiate some conversations, formally or informally and then find a way to pull all the wisdom and insights together and connect people across the country. To the degree that any of us want to work together (virtually) to pull together some kind of common format, using the ICA, ToP, or just doing it independently, that would probably be helpful. I agree with Marianna about the cultural thing. But while we're working to change the culture, something has to be done to stop the bleeding, literally and figuratively, and that's the part laws and practices regarding guns and mental health can play. But what's needed is a change of hearts and minds, i.e. a new story to replace the one that supports our culture of violence. I contend that historically that's what we've done best and where we should focus our attention, remembering that change at that level is a long-term proposition. Randy "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley ________________________________ From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 4:50 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Guns I think guns are a cultural issue. It is going to take far more than laws to solve the gun problem. What about the Institute of Cultural Affairs, could they create a national workshop/conversation? Perhaps in collaboration with another group. I think ICA is more likely to create a conversation and pull together that get to the spirit issue. Marianna On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:09 AM, Jack Gilles wrote: David,
This community knows the power of Town Meeting. The method works, regardless of the topic. The effectiveness lies in the universal truth of trusting people who know their situation to create solutions. We have hundreds of documented success and thousands of communities that benefited. We haven't discovered any thing that would lead to any other conclusion than it will work. That said, I personally, speaking only for myself, feel that the World Cafe method would be a better forum for this issue.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:46 PM, David Walters <walters@alaweb.com> wrote:
I think that the folks who recently spent time in the atchives going thru the TM files need to tell us their reflections on this body of materials what that could tell us about doing TMs in the future.
-David Walters
--- wmbailey@charter.net wrote:
From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Guns Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 21:34:29 -0500
Now that we have a name of a person to present a plan for community dialogues and assuming that Don will contact Carolyn Lukensmeyer. We need a plan for TMs! Are there some "old hands" willing to work on process/design? Proposal? Marianna
On Dec 15, 2012, at 5:27 PM, Don Bushman wrote:
I worked closely with her when she was Dick Celeste's chief of staff.
On Dec 15, 2012 5:21 PM, "Wilson Priscilla" <Pris@teamtechpress.com> wrote:
Does anyone know Carolyn J. Lukensmeyer...who founded and was the president of AmericaSpeaks. She is now Executive Director of the National Institute for Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona.
AmericaSpeaks led a 5,000 person Town Meeting discourse in NYC when the plans first came out for rebuilding Ground Zero. I was a table facilitator...and quite impressed with the folks they managed to reach. Talking with her about a "national" sponsor might produce something.
I think the conversation about needing ways to pull together TM type events in multiple locations makes sense. All of this after the continuing dialogue here...but it needs to go beyond that. Priscilla Wilson
On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
Marianna,
TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote:
What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops.
Marianna
On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
John, > > >I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety. > > >Jack > >Sent from my iPad > >On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote: > > >Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents: >> >>I. CONTEXT >>I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill). >> >>For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes. >> >>So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity. >> >>One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible. >> >>II. IDEAS >>In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you. >> >>Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above. >> >>So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument. >> >>To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!) >> >>Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!) >> >>In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate. >> >>In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-... >> >>Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!). >> >>Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas. >> >>Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary. >> >>John >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Dialogue mailing list >>Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net >>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >>_______________________________________________ >Dialogue mailing list >Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net >http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >
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Priscilla H Wilson Pris@TeamTechPress.com 913-432-2107 http://www.teamtechpress.com/
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Randy, Yes to what you say. We are a network of "those who care" across the country. Maybe all we need is a simple format and report back system that can be done virtually. Marianna On Dec 17, 2012, at 6:50 AM, R Williams wrote:
It's not like nothing is going to be done on this if we don't do it. The national conversation is already raging, so the question is, how do we participate in order to add value to the process that's already underway, offering our particular expertise.
We could ask the ICA-USA to provide some kind of institutional sponsorship if we were going to try to mount a national conversation, but I don't see us launching that kind of centralized effort. Keep in mind, the ICA has a very small staff and we are the hands and mouths when the ICA does something. We are already dispersed across the nation in at least two ways? One is the ToP network and the other is the rest of us who may not be ToP trainers and facilitators but we know how to take people to the depths in conversation and dialogue, and most of us are engaged in our local communities and local organizations--schools, churches, civic associations, service clubs, etc. Why not use the connections we have?
Using the approach of the World Cafe, or anything that gets people doing things that that lead to change, perhaps each of us in the communities where we are could initiate some conversations, formally or informally and then find a way to pull all the wisdom and insights together and connect people across the country. To the degree that any of us want to work together (virtually) to pull together some kind of common format, using the ICA, ToP, or just doing it independently, that would probably be helpful.
I agree with Marianna about the cultural thing. But while we're working to change the culture, something has to be done to stop the bleeding, literally and figuratively, and that's the part laws and practices regarding guns and mental health can play. But what's needed is a change of hearts and minds, i.e. a new story to replace the one that supports our culture of violence. I contend that historically that's what we've done best and where we should focus our attention, remembering that change at that level is a long-term proposition.
Randy
"Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 4:50 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Guns
I think guns are a cultural issue. It is going to take far more than laws to solve the gun problem. What about the Institute of Cultural Affairs, could they create a national workshop/conversation? Perhaps in collaboration with another group. I think ICA is more likely to create a conversation and pull together that get to the spirit issue. Marianna On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:09 AM, Jack Gilles wrote:
David,
This community knows the power of Town Meeting. The method works, regardless of the topic. The effectiveness lies in the universal truth of trusting people who know their situation to create solutions. We have hundreds of documented success and thousands of communities that benefited. We haven't discovered any thing that would lead to any other conclusion than it will work. That said, I personally, speaking only for myself, feel that the World Cafe method would be a better forum for this issue.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:46 PM, David Walters <walters@alaweb.com> wrote:
I think that the folks who recently spent time in the atchives going thru the TM files need to tell us their reflections on this body of materials what that could tell us about doing TMs in the future.
-David Walters
--- wmbailey@charter.net wrote:
From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Guns Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 21:34:29 -0500
Now that we have a name of a person to present a plan for community dialogues and assuming that Don will contact Carolyn Lukensmeyer. We need a plan for TMs! Are there some "old hands" willing to work on process/design? Proposal? Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 5:27 PM, Don Bushman wrote:
I worked closely with her when she was Dick Celeste's chief of staff. On Dec 15, 2012 5:21 PM, "Wilson Priscilla" <Pris@teamtechpress.com> wrote: Does anyone know Carolyn J. Lukensmeyer...who founded and was the president of AmericaSpeaks. She is now Executive Director of the National Institute for Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona. AmericaSpeaks led a 5,000 person Town Meeting discourse in NYC when the plans first came out for rebuilding Ground Zero. I was a table facilitator...and quite impressed with the folks they managed to reach. Talking with her about a "national" sponsor might produce something.
I think the conversation about needing ways to pull together TM type events in multiple locations makes sense. All of this after the continuing dialogue here...but it needs to go beyond that. Priscilla Wilson
On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
Marianna,
TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote:
What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops. Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
John,
I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote:
Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents:
I. CONTEXT I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill).
For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes.
So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity.
One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible.
II. IDEAS In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you.
Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above.
So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument.
To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!)
Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!)
In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate.
In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-...
Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!).
Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas.
Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary.
John
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
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Priscilla H Wilson Pris@TeamTechPress.com 913-432-2107 http://www.teamtechpress.com/
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participants (6)
-
David Walters -
Jack Gilles -
James Wiegel -
Marianna Bailey -
McCabe, Diann A -
R Williams