Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents: I. CONTEXT I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill). For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes. So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity. One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible. II. IDEAS In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you. Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above. So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument. To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!) Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!) In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate. In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-... Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!). Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas. Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary. John
John, I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety. Jack Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote: Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents: *I. CONTEXT *I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill). For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes. So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity. One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible. *II. IDEAS *In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, *"Lure the Tiger out of the mountains."* The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you. Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above. So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument. To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!) Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!) In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate. In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-... Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!). Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas. Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary. John _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops. Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
John,
I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote:
Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents:
I. CONTEXT I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill).
For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes.
So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity.
One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible.
II. IDEAS In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you.
Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above.
So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument.
To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!)
Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!)
In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate.
In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-...
Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!).
Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas.
Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary.
John
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Marianna, TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better. Jack Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote: What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops. Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote: John, I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety. Jack Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote: Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents: *I. CONTEXT *I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill). For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes. So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity. One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible. *II. IDEAS *In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, *"Lure the Tiger out of the mountains."* The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you. Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above. So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument. To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!) Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!) In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate. In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-... Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!). Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas. Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary. John _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Does anyone know Carolyn J. Lukensmeyer...who founded and was the president of AmericaSpeaks. She is now Executive Director of the National Institute for Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona. AmericaSpeaks led a 5,000 person Town Meeting discourse in NYC when the plans first came out for rebuilding Ground Zero. I was a table facilitator...and quite impressed with the folks they managed to reach. Talking with her about a "national" sponsor might produce something. I think the conversation about needing ways to pull together TM type events in multiple locations makes sense. All of this after the continuing dialogue here...but it needs to go beyond that. Priscilla Wilson On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
Marianna,
TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote:
What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops. Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
John,
I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote:
Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents:
I. CONTEXT I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill).
For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes.
So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity.
One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible.
II. IDEAS In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you.
Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above.
So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument.
To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!)
Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!)
In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate.
In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-...
Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!).
Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas.
Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary.
John
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Priscilla H Wilson Pris@TeamTechPress.com 913-432-2107 www.teamtechpress.com
I worked closely with her when she was Dick Celeste's chief of staff. On Dec 15, 2012 5:21 PM, "Wilson Priscilla" <Pris@teamtechpress.com> wrote:
Does anyone know Carolyn J. Lukensmeyer...who founded and was the president of America*Speaks.* She is now Executive Director of the National Institute for Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona. America*Speaks* led a 5,000 person Town Meeting discourse in NYC when the plans first came out for rebuilding Ground Zero. I was a table facilitator...and quite impressed with the folks they managed to reach. Talking with her about a "national" sponsor might produce something.
I think the conversation about needing ways to pull together TM type events in multiple locations makes sense. All of this after the continuing dialogue here...but it needs to go beyond that. Priscilla Wilson
On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
Marianna,
TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote:
What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops. Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
John,
I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote:
Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents:
*I. CONTEXT *I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill).
For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes.
So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity.
One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible.
*II. IDEAS *In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, *"Lure the Tiger out of the mountains."* The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you.
Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above.
So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument.
To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!)
Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!)
In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate.
In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-...
Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!).
Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas.
Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary.
John
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
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Priscilla H Wilson Pris@TeamTechPress.com 913-432-2107 www.teamtechpress.com
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Now that we have a name of a person to present a plan for community dialogues and assuming that Don will contact Carolyn Lukensmeyer. We need a plan for TMs! Are there some "old hands" willing to work on process/design? Proposal? Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 5:27 PM, Don Bushman wrote:
I worked closely with her when she was Dick Celeste's chief of staff.
On Dec 15, 2012 5:21 PM, "Wilson Priscilla" <Pris@teamtechpress.com> wrote: Does anyone know Carolyn J. Lukensmeyer...who founded and was the president of AmericaSpeaks. She is now Executive Director of the National Institute for Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona. AmericaSpeaks led a 5,000 person Town Meeting discourse in NYC when the plans first came out for rebuilding Ground Zero. I was a table facilitator...and quite impressed with the folks they managed to reach. Talking with her about a "national" sponsor might produce something.
I think the conversation about needing ways to pull together TM type events in multiple locations makes sense. All of this after the continuing dialogue here...but it needs to go beyond that. Priscilla Wilson
On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
Marianna,
TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote:
What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops. Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
John,
I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote:
Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents:
I. CONTEXT I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill).
For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes.
So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity.
One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible.
II. IDEAS In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you.
Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above.
So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument.
To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!)
Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!)
In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate.
In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-...
Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!).
Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas.
Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary.
John
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Priscilla H Wilson Pris@TeamTechPress.com 913-432-2107 www.teamtechpress.com
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
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That would be great to have 5,000 person (or more) discourse on creating safe communities. I'm wondering what would be a good "vision" question to start the conversation. On Dec 15, 2012, at 5:20 PM, Wilson Priscilla wrote:
Does anyone know Carolyn J. Lukensmeyer...who founded and was the president of AmericaSpeaks. She is now Executive Director of the National Institute for Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona. AmericaSpeaks led a 5,000 person Town Meeting discourse in NYC when the plans first came out for rebuilding Ground Zero. I was a table facilitator...and quite impressed with the folks they managed to reach. Talking with her about a "national" sponsor might produce something.
I think the conversation about needing ways to pull together TM type events in multiple locations makes sense. All of this after the continuing dialogue here...but it needs to go beyond that. Priscilla Wilson
On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
Marianna,
TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote:
What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops. Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
John,
I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote:
Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents:
I. CONTEXT I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill).
For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes.
So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity.
One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible.
II. IDEAS In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you.
Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above.
So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument.
To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!)
Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!)
In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate.
In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-...
Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!).
Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas.
Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary.
John
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
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Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Priscilla H Wilson Pris@TeamTechPress.com 913-432-2107 www.teamtechpress.com
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Morgan Freeman's statement about these random shootings.... "You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why. It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you kn ow the name of a single victim of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody. CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next. You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem." Jim Wiegel ". . . In this whole world i don't know a more sly, more cunning, useful virtue than sheer dizzy pluck!" The Odyssey A Modern Sequel. Nikos Kazantzakis 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Feb 12-13, May 21-22, Sept 17-18, 2013 ToP Strategic Planning, Nov 12-13, 2013 Facilitation Graphics, March 19, 2013 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Nov 2, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP courses --- On Sat, 12/15/12, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote: From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Guns To: "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 5:09 PM That would be great to have 5,000 person (or more) discourse on creating safe communities. I'm wondering what would be a good "vision" question to start the conversation. On Dec 15, 2012, at 5:20 PM, Wilson Priscilla wrote: Does anyone know Carolyn J. Lukensmeyer...who founded and was the president of AmericaSpeaks. She is now Executive Director of the National Institute for Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona.AmericaSpeaks led a 5,000 person Town Meeting discourse in NYC when the plans first came out for rebuilding Ground Zero.I was a table facilitator...and quite impressed with the folks they managed to reach. Talking with her about a "national" sponsor might produce something. I think the conversation about needing ways to pull together TM type events in multiple locations makes sense.All of this after the continuing dialogue here...but it needs to go beyond that.Priscilla Wilson On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jack Gilles wrote: Marianna, TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better. Jack Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote: What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops. Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote: John, I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety. Jack Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote: Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents: I. CONTEXT I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill). For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes. So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity. One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible. II. IDEAS In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you. Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above. So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument. To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!) Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!) In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate. In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-... Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!). Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas. Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary. John _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net Priscilla H WilsonPris@TeamTechPress.com913-432-2107www.teamtechpress.com _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Cynthia Vance In light of Sandy Hook and other recent mass killings and football players on steroids killing women. The women of the world need to TAKE OVER, pass laws to ban steroid injections for men, but instead inject estrogen into every male alive. Let's get rid of testosterone-driven men. No more killing, no more war, also no more uncontrolled (on steroids) men out of control. Jim Wiegel ". . . In this whole world i don't know a more sly, more cunning, useful virtue than sheer dizzy pluck!" The Odyssey A Modern Sequel. Nikos Kazantzakis 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Feb 12-13, May 21-22, Sept 17-18, 2013 ToP Strategic Planning, Nov 12-13, 2013 Facilitation Graphics, March 19, 2013 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Nov 2, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP courses --- On Sat, 12/15/12, James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> wrote: From: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> Subject: [Dialogue] Another angle on the brainstorm . . . To: "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 5:30 PM Morgan Freeman's statement about these random shootings.... "You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why. It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you kn ow the name of a single victim of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody. CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next. You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem." Jim Wiegel ". . . In this whole world i don't know a more sly, more cunning, useful virtue than sheer dizzy pluck!" The Odyssey A Modern Sequel. Nikos Kazantzakis 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Feb 12-13, May 21-22, Sept 17-18, 2013 ToP Strategic Planning, Nov 12-13, 2013 Facilitation Graphics, March 19, 2013 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Nov 2, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP courses --- On Sat, 12/15/12, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote: From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Guns To: "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 5:09 PM That would be great to have 5,000 person (or more) discourse on creating safe communities. I'm wondering what would be a good "vision" question to start the conversation. On Dec 15, 2012, at 5:20 PM, Wilson Priscilla wrote: Does anyone know Carolyn J. Lukensmeyer...who founded and was the president of AmericaSpeaks. She is now Executive Director of the National Institute for Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona.AmericaSpeaks led a 5,000 person Town Meeting discourse in NYC when the plans first came out for rebuilding Ground Zero.I was a table facilitator...and quite impressed with the folks they managed to reach. Talking with her about a "national" sponsor might produce something. I think the conversation about needing ways to pull together TM type events in multiple locations makes sense.All of this after the continuing dialogue here...but it needs to go beyond that.Priscilla Wilson On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jack Gilles wrote: Marianna, TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better. Jack Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote: What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops. Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote: John, I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety. Jack Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote: Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents: I. CONTEXT I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill). For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes. So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity. One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible. II. IDEAS In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you. Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above. So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument. To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!) Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!) In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate. In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-... Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!). Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas. Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary. John _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net Priscilla H WilsonPris@TeamTechPress.com913-432-2107www.teamtechpress.com _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Cynthia connecting the Sandy Hook situation to wars is an important connection. Wars have not brought me to my knees as the Sandy Hook situation has. Wars are outrageous too. We soak our selves comfortably in the pool of stories that is getting hotter and hotter (more disconnected and hiding of greed) and our conscience is dead. Community conversations are important. Community connections are important. Community projects are important. We are with you in deep supplication for wisdom and care, Mary On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:11 AM, James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> wrote:
Cynthia Vance <https://www.facebook.com/cynthia.vance1> In light of Sandy Hook and other recent mass killings and football players on steroids killing women. The women of the world need to TAKE OVER, pass laws to ban steroid injections for men, but instead inject estrogen into every male alive. Let's get rid of testosterone-driven men. No more killing, no more war, also no more uncontrolled (on steroids) men out of control.
Jim Wiegel
". . . In this whole world i don't know a more sly, more cunning, useful virtue than sheer dizzy pluck!" The Odyssey A Modern Sequel. Nikos Kazantzakis
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Feb 12-13, May 21-22, Sept 17-18, 2013 ToP Strategic Planning, Nov 12-13, 2013 Facilitation Graphics, March 19, 2013 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Nov 2, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP courses
--- On *Sat, 12/15/12, James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>* wrote:
From: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> Subject: [Dialogue] Another angle on the brainstorm . . . To: "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 5:30 PM
Morgan Freeman's statement about these random shootings....
"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.
It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are ho usehold names, but do you kn ow the name of a single victim of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.
CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.
You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem."
Jim Wiegel
". . . In this whole world i don't know a more sly, more cunning, useful virtue than sheer dizzy pluck!" The Odyssey A Modern Sequel. Nikos Kazantzakis
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Feb 12-13, May 21-22, Sept 17-18, 2013 ToP Strategic Planning, Nov 12-13, 2013 Facilitation Graphics, March 19, 2013 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Nov 2, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP courses
--- On *Sat, 12/15/12, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net>* wrote:
From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Guns To: "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 5:09 PM
That would be great to have 5,000 person (or more) discourse on creating safe communities. I'm wondering what would be a good "vision" question to start the conversation. On Dec 15, 2012, at 5:20 PM, Wilson Priscilla wrote:
Does anyone know Carolyn J. Lukensmeyer...who founded and was the president of America*Speaks.* She is now Executive Director of the National Institute for Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona. America*Speaks* led a 5,000 person Town Meeting discourse in NYC when the plans first came out for rebuilding Ground Zero. I was a table facilitator...and quite impressed with the folks they managed to reach. Talking with her about a "national" sponsor might produce something.
I think the conversation about needing ways to pull together TM type events in multiple locations makes sense. All of this after the continuing dialogue here...but it needs to go beyond that. Priscilla Wilson
On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
Marianna,
TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote:
What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops. Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
John,
I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote:
Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents:
*I. CONTEXT *I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill).
For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes.
So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity.
One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible.
*II. IDEAS *In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, *"Lure the Tiger out of the mountains."* The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you.
Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above.
So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument.
To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!)
Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!)
In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate.
In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-...
Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!).
Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas.
Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary.
John
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Priscilla H Wilson Pris@TeamTechPress.com 913-432-2107 www.teamtechpress.com
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net<http://mc/compose?to=Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
LATEST NEWS 'Right To Live Life In Complete, Stunned Horror,' Added To Constitution DECEMBER 15, 2012 | ISSUE 48•50 WASHINGTON—In the wake of yesterday’s gruesome mass shooting that claimed the lives of 27 people, including 20 schoolchildren, the United States ratified a new constitutional amendment this afternoon guaranteeing American citizens the right to live life in a perpetual state of abject horror. “The provisions of the 28th Amendment will fully protect the right of all individuals to spend every waking moment utterly terrified at the thought of a deranged stranger with a semiautomatic combat rifle gunning them down,” said House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), explaining that the measure also permits Americans to suffer panic attacks anytime their loved ones go to work, school, malls, or virtually any other public location. “In addition, the new amendment prevents the government from ever infringing on a citizen’s inalienable right to lie awake at night visualizing the images of crying children being ushered out of a school and wondering where it could happen next.” The new amendment comes on the heels of numerous other proposed changes to U.S. law, including a highly contested bill that would protect the right of Americans to ignore a widespread, deadly problem until it is far too late. Dan Roberts And now, the flipside... After the massacre on Friday, so many of are seeking safety and security for ourselves and our families. Some of us see this as an opportunity to address the scourge of easily available firearms that too often get into the wrong hands. And then there are those of us who see fit to exercise our 2nd amendment rights to insure that - at least while they’re under our watch - no such harm will come to our children. Both approaches are well intentioned and have the potential to save lives - limiting access to deadly force by making it harder for anybody with cash in hand to buy a semi-automatic handgun from a stranger at a gunshow? Yeah. We should do that yesterday. And allowing citizens to possess firearms to protect the ones they love from future threats - If that is what a law-abiding citizen feels he or she needs to feel secure in their own home - do not interfere with their personal liberty and do not judge. You may feel that your deadbolt and your local police provide all the security your need - but not everyone lives in your neighborhood, and some of us have been burglarized or assaulted and do not want to live in constant fear and anxiety. Like it or not, guns provide a certain measure of solace - they save at least as many lives as they take - every single day - though you won’t see those statistics on the evening news. In the rush to find a solution that will help us all sleep better at night, it is critical that we preserve our fundamental right to protect ourselves and our families...so that we can sleep better at night. Like · · Share · 3 hours ago near Austin, TX · 2 people like this. Michael Pizzuto I live in a nation of 7million people. In the almost 7years of living here, i can count on one hand the number of shooting deaths that have occurred. Sure there are murders, gangs, crime and poverty. But hardly ever do you hear of a shooting. Why?? Because guns are illegal and very hard to get as we dont have gun shows, pawn shops or supermarkets selling them. 3 hours ago via mobile · Like Jim Wiegel Jfwiegel@yahoo.com Joan Chittister “Christmas is not for children. It is for those who refuse to give up and grow old, for those to whom life comes newly and with purpose each and every day, for those who can let yesterday go so that life can be full of new possibility always, for those who are agitated with newness whatever their age.” Partners in Participation Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods: Feb 12-13, 2013, May 21-22, 2013, Sep 17-18, 2013 ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday (1-4 pm) of the month Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details.
Jim, What we need is a "male revolution" where they hold rallys to turn in guns to be destroyed! On Dec 15, 2012, at 9:41 PM, James Wiegel wrote:
Cynthia Vance
In light of Sandy Hook and other recent mass killings and football players on steroids killing women. The women of the world need to TAKE OVER, pass laws to ban steroid injections for men, but instead inject estrogen into every male alive. Let's get rid of testosterone-driven men. No more killing, no more war, also no more uncontrolled (on steroids) men out of control.
Jim Wiegel
". . . In this whole world i don't know a more sly, more cunning, useful virtue than sheer dizzy pluck!" The Odyssey A Modern Sequel. Nikos Kazantzakis
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Feb 12-13, May 21-22, Sept 17-18, 2013 ToP Strategic Planning, Nov 12-13, 2013 Facilitation Graphics, March 19, 2013 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Nov 2, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP courses
--- On Sat, 12/15/12, James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> Subject: [Dialogue] Another angle on the brainstorm . . . To: "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 5:30 PM
Morgan Freeman's statement about these random shootings....
"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.
It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are ho usehold names, but do you kn ow the name of a single victim of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.
CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.
You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem."
Jim Wiegel
". . . In this whole world i don't know a more sly, more cunning, useful virtue than sheer dizzy pluck!" The Odyssey A Modern Sequel. Nikos Kazantzakis
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Feb 12-13, May 21-22, Sept 17-18, 2013 ToP Strategic Planning, Nov 12-13, 2013 Facilitation Graphics, March 19, 2013 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Nov 2, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP courses
--- On Sat, 12/15/12, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote:
From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Guns To: "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 5:09 PM
That would be great to have 5,000 person (or more) discourse on creating safe communities. I'm wondering what would be a good "vision" question to start the conversation. On Dec 15, 2012, at 5:20 PM, Wilson Priscilla wrote:
Does anyone know Carolyn J. Lukensmeyer...who founded and was the president of AmericaSpeaks. She is now Executive Director of the National Institute for Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona. AmericaSpeaks led a 5,000 person Town Meeting discourse in NYC when the plans first came out for rebuilding Ground Zero. I was a table facilitator...and quite impressed with the folks they managed to reach. Talking with her about a "national" sponsor might produce something.
I think the conversation about needing ways to pull together TM type events in multiple locations makes sense. All of this after the continuing dialogue here...but it needs to go beyond that. Priscilla Wilson
On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
Marianna,
TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> wrote:
What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops. Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
John,
I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote:
Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents:
I. CONTEXT I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill).
For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes.
So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity.
One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible.
II. IDEAS In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you.
Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above.
So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument.
To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!)
Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!)
In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate.
In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-...
Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!).
Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas.
Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary.
John
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I worked with Carolyn when age was Dick Celeste's chief of staff. On Dec 15, 2012 7:30 PM, "James Wiegel" <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> wrote:
Morgan Freeman's statement about these random shootings....
"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.
It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are ho usehold names, but do you kn ow the name of a single victim of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.
CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.
You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem."
Jim Wiegel
". . . In this whole world i don't know a more sly, more cunning, useful virtue than sheer dizzy pluck!" The Odyssey A Modern Sequel. Nikos Kazantzakis
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Feb 12-13, May 21-22, Sept 17-18, 2013 ToP Strategic Planning, Nov 12-13, 2013 Facilitation Graphics, March 19, 2013 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Nov 2, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP courses
--- On *Sat, 12/15/12, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net>* wrote:
From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Guns To: "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 5:09 PM
That would be great to have 5,000 person (or more) discourse on creating safe communities. I'm wondering what would be a good "vision" question to start the conversation. On Dec 15, 2012, at 5:20 PM, Wilson Priscilla wrote:
Does anyone know Carolyn J. Lukensmeyer...who founded and was the president of America*Speaks.* She is now Executive Director of the National Institute for Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona. America*Speaks* led a 5,000 person Town Meeting discourse in NYC when the plans first came out for rebuilding Ground Zero. I was a table facilitator...and quite impressed with the folks they managed to reach. Talking with her about a "national" sponsor might produce something.
I think the conversation about needing ways to pull together TM type events in multiple locations makes sense. All of this after the continuing dialogue here...but it needs to go beyond that. Priscilla Wilson
On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
Marianna,
TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey@charter.net<http://mc/compose?to=wmbailey@charter.net>> wrote:
What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm" organizations that could sponsor the workshops. Marianna On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
John,
I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my<http://mc/compose?to=jlepps@pc.jaring.my>" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my <http://mc/compose?to=jlepps@pc.jaring.my>> wrote:
Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents:
*I. CONTEXT *I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill).
For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes.
So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity.
One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible.
*II. IDEAS *In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, *"Lure the Tiger out of the mountains."* The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you.
Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above.
So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument.
To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!)
Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!)
In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate.
In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-...
Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!).
Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas.
Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary.
John
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Now that "Tiger" strategy has merit. Who could write a "white paper" to the NRA that begins - - - now is the time gun opponents have been looking for. Anti-gun laws are already in the works. The NRA could seize this opportunity to our advantage. Rally our members to research home and life protection - - what to buy, where to keep it, how to use it, safety, advocate home protection groups in your hometown, practice and be prepared. Print and send flyers to all members to sponsor study, support, suppress anti-gun advocates and form hometown safety clubs. This sounds scary, even to me. Could someone come up with a letter - - not a petition - - we could mail to our representatives. Boat loads of actual mail would be impressive. I think it's a bit too soon to jump into action. Let's keep the brainstorm going for awhile, group the ideas into "types of action" and see what that tells us. Lee On Dec 15, 2012, at 1:15 PM, Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com> wrote:
John,
I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety.
Jack
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote:
Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents:
I. CONTEXT I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill).
For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes.
So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity.
One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible.
II. IDEAS In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you.
Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above.
So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument.
To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!)
Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!)
In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate.
In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-...
Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!).
Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas.
Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary.
John
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Lee Early 19230 Forest Park Dr. NE, A102 Lake Forest Park, WA 98155 Home: (206) 922-3182 Lee's mobile: (425) 212-7997
participants (8)
-
Don Bushman -
Jack Gilles -
James Wiegel -
jlepps＠pc.jaring.my -
Lee Early -
Marianna Bailey -
Mary D'Souza -
Wilson Priscilla