- Dialogue - lists.wedgeblade.net

Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"
by jlepps＠pc.jaring.my 16 Jun '12

16 Jun '12

Randy, Bill, Marilyn, George, and others: I don't think you can separate the Institutional dynamic from the Movemental dynamic so completely. The Christian movement has institutional dimensions from the first -- remember the dispute between Peter and Paul about inclusiveness relative to Gentiles? each dynamic has authentic roles -- the institution embodies and preserves wisdom, symbols, rituals, and creeds which express that which activates the movement. The Movement adds dynamism, relevance, creativity and vitality to the understanding that is expressed. Whenever each becomes dominant, perversions occur. As the Order, we certainly had institutional dynamics -- structures, understandings, rituals -- aimed at preserving our vitality. IMHO, sometime in the late 80's we thought it would increase relevance to change some of the classic elements to further the movemental dynamic. We changed the daily office into something "more inclusive," for example. It worked for awhile. And that's the point: institutions preserve things longer than "for awhile," even though the forms of expression aren't immediatly clear. Anyway, it's clear that the movemental dynamic is where we are/were focused,and what's badly needed now. But let's not throw out the baby with the bath. John At 04:29 AM 6/14/2012, you wrote: >Bill, > >Christianity was a movement for about 300 years >before it became institutionalized, so I would >have to say that in most cases movements give >birth to institutions, not the other way >around. True, many of us came to the spirit >movement from the local church, but for me at >least, it was because the movement seemed a >legitimate alternative to what wasn't working in >the institution. I agree with George about the >value of the symbolic life, the wisdom >literature and the historic traditions, but what >I see going on in within the institution of the >church today is what we called >"institutionalism" in the RS-1 church >lecture. The church abdicates its mission of >serving the world and decides to make building >and preserving the institution its priority, and >that's a perversion. Current examples of that >for me--the UMC and the decisions of the General >Conference regarding LGBT inclusiveness, and the >Catholic Church with (1) the law suit filed by >the Catholic bishops in the U.S. against the >government regarding the health care law and >contraception, and (2) the harassment of nuns in >this country by the Vatican. I know there are >obvious exceptions to what I am saying, but I >fear my examples are indicative of the dominant trend. > >Whether a movement or an institution, religious >or secular, its purpose must be to serve >something greater than itself. If it can >appease the powers that be, keep its >constituents happy and balance the budget while >doing that, fine. But it's when those >institutional chores become more important than >the mission to serve, that it becomes >perverse. Even with corporations a lot of >insightful business people are saying that the >purpose of business is not to make a profit but >to serve its stakeholders (not just its >shareholders), and that profit is the way it >keeps score. Like saying that breathing is >necessary to sustain a human life but breathing >is not the reason for that life to exist. Where >the mission to serve gets lost or dumbed down, >whether in the religious or secular movement or >the religious or secular institution, the entity >becomes at best irrelevant and at worst destructive. > >Randy > > > >"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the >course of being in the world; not to be >supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." >-Martin Buber (adapted) >From: Bill Parker <bparker175(a)cox.net> >To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> >Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:53 PM >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists >weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime" >George, > >I think your statement about the institutional >church is an important insight that is easily >overlooked in the midst of our frustration with >the church. We make a mistake when we expect the >institutional church to fulfill the criteria of >the movemental church. That is not who or what >they are. They have powers to contend with, >budgets to meet, programs to conduct to keep >their constituencies happy with the church as an >institution. They are stationary in scope, >intent, and form plus they often appear to be >shallow, misguided and self serving. Yet, it is >the source, the birthplace of the movemental religious. > >When you think about it, it is like a lot of us >expect insurance companies to take >responsibility for our healthcare system. That >is not their job. That is the job of the society >who wants to make sure people have access to >healthcare. We can't expect that from a >corporation, that is not what a corporation is. > >Anyway.....just thinking, > >Thanks, >Bill >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net>George Holcombe >To: <mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Colleague Dialogue >Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:31 AM >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists >weigh in,sounds like the "council of a lifetime" > >With Joe being a Methodist and Slicker a >Presbyterian, we can look at ourselves as a >movement that sprang from the institutional >church, and there are others, even now. I think >Joe was right when he said that the >institutional church was dead some years >ago. However, there is lots of life within the >movemental church dynamic, and that includes all >the religions, that springs from institutional >religion. What's interesting about the >institutional expressions of religion is that >they hold on to the symbols and scriptures, the >history, etc. even when they misinterpret and misrepresent them. >George Holcombe14900 Yellowleaf Tr.Austin, TX >78728Mobile 512/252-2756<mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net>geowanda(a)earthlink.net > >Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hopeâyou do >not have anything to do with it. It just >appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an >alienit just appeareth! You do not even know >why you hope. How in the world could you hope >when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews > > >On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:52 PM, R Williams wrote: >>In the midst of the turmoil the church is going >>through this is one of the most hopeful pieces >>I've seen. The primary question for me is, can >>a church that has been so embedded in >>institutional structures for so long >>realistically be expected to reverse course and >>again become a movemental presence? >> >>Randy >> >>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to >>the course of being in the world; not to be >>supported by it, but to bring it to reality as >>it desires."-Martin Buber (adapted) >>From: James Wiegel <<mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com>jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com> >>To: >>"<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" >><<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net>; >>Colleague Dialogue >><<mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> >>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:42 PM >>Subject: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh >>in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime" >>http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-deleg… >> >>Jim Wiegel >> >>If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot >>paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice >>will be silenced. Vincent Van Gogh >> >>401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 >>+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel >>jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com >><http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/>www.partnersinparticipation.com >> >>Upcoming public course opportunities: >>ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012 >>ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012 >>The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012 >>Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the >>Technology of Participation program is >>available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 >>See short video >>http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. >> >>--- On Mon, 6/11/12, Timothy Wegner <twegner(a)swbell.net> wrote: >> >>From: Timothy Wegner <twegner(a)swbell.net> >>Subject: [Dialogue] <http://wedgeblade.net/>wedgeblade.net is back up. >>To: "oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" >><oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net>, >>"dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> >>Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:24 AM >> >>Wedgeblade.net has actually been up since >>yesterday, but I just received a message from >>our host that their backup restore is complete. >>All is good. In fact, all is good even when the >>website is down! Tim ---------- Sent from >>AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email >>_______________________________________________ >>Dialogue mailing >>listDialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Dialogue mailing >>list<mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net<http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Dialogue mailing list >><mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >_______________________________________________ >Dialogue mailing list >Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net > >_______________________________________________Dialogue >mailing >list<mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net<http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net > >_______________________________________________ >Dialogue mailing list >Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

1 0

Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"
by marilyncrocker＠juno.com 15 Jun '12

15 Jun '12

Hi John, Randy, George, Bill, Jim et al, I have appreciated this exchange, and especially thank Jim W. for calling my attention to the fine statement from the delegation from our New England Conference. Over the years voices from the northeast have often been "outliers" among those of other Conferences (including the General Conference.) I thank Bishop Jim Mathews (who served us in NE well back in the 1960s and was long respected as an exemplar of wise pastoral leadership and just administrative practices) for his legacy, echoed in the statement Jim referenced. Let's keep listening.... Grace and peace, Marilyn PS Wonder if M. George or Maynard have insights to add? On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 03:29:06 -0700 (PDT) R Williams <rcwmbw(a)yahoo.com> writes: Bill, Christianity was a movement for about 300 years before it became institutionalized, so I would have to say that in most cases movements give birth to institutions, not the other way around. True, many of us came to the spirit movement from the local church, but for me at least, it was because the movement seemed a legitimate alternative to what wasn't working in the institution. I agree with George about the value of the symbolic life, the wisdom literature and the historic traditions, but what I see going on in within the institution of the church today is what we called "institutionalism" in the RS-1 church lecture. The church abdicates its mission of serving the world and decides to make building and preserving the institution its priority, and that's a perversion. Current examples of that for me--the UMC and the decisions of the General Conference regarding LGBT inclusiveness, and the Catholic Church with (1) the law suit filed by the Catholic bishops in the U.S. against the government regarding the health care law and contraception, and (2) the harassment of nuns in this country by the Vatican. I know there are obvious exceptions to what I am saying, but I fear my examples are indicative of the dominant trend. Whether a movement or an institution, religious or secular, its purpose must be to serve something greater than itself. If it can appease the powers that be, keep its constituents happy and balance the budget while doing that, fine. But it's when those institutional chores become more important than the mission to serve, that it becomes perverse. Even with corporations a lot of insightful business people are saying that the purpose of business is not to make a profit but to serve its stakeholders (not just its shareholders), and that profit is the way it keeps score. Like saying that breathing is necessary to sustain a human life but breathing is not the reason for that life to exist. Where the mission to serve gets lost or dumbed down, whether in the religious or secular movement or the religious or secular institution, the entity becomes at best irrelevant and at worst destructive. Randy "Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." -Martin Buber (adapted) From: Bill Parker <bparker175(a)cox.net> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime" George, I think your statement about the institutional church is an important insight that is easily overlooked in the midst of our frustration with the church. We make a mistake when we expect the institutional church to fulfill the criteria of the movemental church. That is not who or what they are. They have powers to contend with, budgets to meet, programs to conduct to keep their constituencies happy with the church as an institution. They are stationary in scope, intent, and form plus they often appear to be shallow, misguided and self serving. Yet, it is the source, the birthplace of the movemental religious. When you think about it, it is like a lot of us expect insurance companies to take responsibility for our healthcare system. That is not their job. That is the job of the society who wants to make sure people have access to healthcare. We can't expect that from a corporation, that is not what a corporation is. Anyway.....just thinking, Thanks, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: George Holcombe To: Colleague Dialogue Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in,sounds like the "council of a lifetime" With Joe being a Methodist and Slicker a Presbyterian, we can look at ourselves as a movement that sprang from the institutional church, and there are others, even now. I think Joe was right when he said that the institutional church was dead some years ago. However, there is lots of life within the movemental church dynamic, and that includes all the religions, that springs from institutional religion. What's interesting about the institutional expressions of religion is that they hold on to the symbols and scriptures, the history, etc. even when they misinterpret and misrepresent them. George Holcombe14900 Yellowleaf Tr.Austin, TX 78728Mobile 512/252-2756geowanda(a)earthlink.net Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hope�you do not have anything to do with it. It just appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an alien�it just appeareth! You do not even know why you hope. How in the world could you hope when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:52 PM, R Williams wrote: In the midst of the turmoil the church is going through this is one of the most hopeful pieces I've seen. The primary question for me is, can a church that has been so embedded in institutional structures for so long realistically be expected to reverse course and again become a movemental presence? Randy "Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires."-Martin Buber (adapted) From: James Wiegel <jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com> To: "oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net>; Colleague Dialogue <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:42 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime" http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-del egation-no-common-identity-for-umc/ Jim Wiegel If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced. Vincent Van Gogh 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012 ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. --- On Mon, 6/11/12, Timothy Wegner <twegner(a)swbell.net> wrote: From: Timothy Wegner <twegner(a)swbell.net> Subject: [Dialogue] wedgeblade.net is back up. To: "oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net>, "dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:24 AM Wedgeblade.net has actually been up since yesterday, but I just received a message from our host that their backup restore is complete. All is good. In fact, all is good even when the website is down! Tim ---------- Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing listDialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing listDialogue@lists.wedgeblade.nethttp://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi /dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________Dialogue mailing listDialogue@lists.wedgeblade.nethttp://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi /dialogue-wedgeblade.net Dr. Marilyn R. Crocker 123 Sanborn Road West Newfield, ME 04095

1 0

Hilliard Memorial Service
by Terry Bergdall 15 Jun '12

15 Jun '12

I spoke with Aimee this morning and she informs me that a Memorial Service as been scheduled for Saturday, July 21, 1:00pm, at the First United Methodist Church, Chicago Temple, across from Daley Plaza in the downtown Loop. For those who might be attending from out of town, please note that there is limited lodging available at 4750. Those who are interested in this option should contact Tyra Taylor for details. Her email is ttaylor(a)ica-usa.org. Grace and peace, Terry

1 0

Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"
by jlepps＠pc.jaring.my 15 Jun '12

15 Jun '12

Randy, Bill, George, and others who are interested: I think you cannot easily separate the institutional and the movemental dynamics. Seems like Peter and Paul argued over institutional matters -- the extent to which Gentiles could be included, etc.Both dynamics are present all the time in a tensional relationship that keeps things interesting. Perversions happen when either one dominates. As George says, the legitimate function of the institution is to preserve the history, rituals, and symbols that awaken people to the movement. The role of the movement is to bring creativity, vitality, and relevance to the mission. We certainly had both dynamics operative in OE. IMHO we tended to neglect the institutional dynamics when we abandoned the Daily Office, moved to Primary Units, and ignored the Panchayat Document. Clearly we intended to be the Movemental dynamic, and we carried that along very well for awhile. It would be interesting to speculate on the type of Institution that is appropriate these days for carrying the mission forward. That's why Gordon's interest in the "organization" of the Occupy Movement as a possible model for the future strikes me as very relevant. John At 04:29 AM 6/14/2012, you wrote: >Bill, > >Christianity was a movement for about 300 years >before it became institutionalized, so I would >have to say that in most cases movements give >birth to institutions, not the other way >around. True, many of us came to the spirit >movement from the local church, but for me at >least, it was because the movement seemed a >legitimate alternative to what wasn't working in >the institution. I agree with George about the >value of the symbolic life, the wisdom >literature and the historic traditions, but what >I see going on in within the institution of the >church today is what we called >"institutionalism" in the RS-1 church >lecture. The church abdicates its mission of >serving the world and decides to make building >and preserving the institution its priority, and >that's a perversion. Current examples of that >for me--the UMC and the decisions of the General >Conference regarding LGBT inclusiveness, and the >Catholic Church with (1) the law suit filed by >the Catholic bishops in the U.S. against the >government regarding the health care law and >contraception, and (2) the harassment of nuns in >this country by the Vatican. I know there are >obvious exceptions to what I am saying, but I >fear my examples are indicative of the dominant trend. > >Whether a movement or an institution, religious >or secular, its purpose must be to serve >something greater than itself. If it can >appease the powers that be, keep its >constituents happy and balance the budget while >doing that, fine. But it's when those >institutional chores become more important than >the mission to serve, that it becomes >perverse. Even with corporations a lot of >insightful business people are saying that the >purpose of business is not to make a profit but >to serve its stakeholders (not just its >shareholders), and that profit is the way it >keeps score. Like saying that breathing is >necessary to sustain a human life but breathing >is not the reason for that life to exist. Where >the mission to serve gets lost or dumbed down, >whether in the religious or secular movement or >the religious or secular institution, the entity >becomes at best irrelevant and at worst destructive. > >Randy > > > >"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the >course of being in the world; not to be >supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." >-Martin Buber (adapted) >From: Bill Parker <bparker175(a)cox.net> >To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> >Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:53 PM >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists >weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime" >George, > >I think your statement about the institutional >church is an important insight that is easily >overlooked in the midst of our frustration with >the church. We make a mistake when we expect the >institutional church to fulfill the criteria of >the movemental church. That is not who or what >they are. They have powers to contend with, >budgets to meet, programs to conduct to keep >their constituencies happy with the church as an >institution. They are stationary in scope, >intent, and form plus they often appear to be >shallow, misguided and self serving. Yet, it is >the source, the birthplace of the movemental religious. > >When you think about it, it is like a lot of us >expect insurance companies to take >responsibility for our healthcare system. That >is not their job. That is the job of the society >who wants to make sure people have access to >healthcare. We can't expect that from a >corporation, that is not what a corporation is. > >Anyway.....just thinking, > >Thanks, >Bill >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net>George Holcombe >To: <mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Colleague Dialogue >Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:31 AM >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists >weigh in,sounds like the "council of a lifetime" > >With Joe being a Methodist and Slicker a >Presbyterian, we can look at ourselves as a >movement that sprang from the institutional >church, and there are others, even now. I think >Joe was right when he said that the >institutional church was dead some years >ago. However, there is lots of life within the >movemental church dynamic, and that includes all >the religions, that springs from institutional >religion. What's interesting about the >institutional expressions of religion is that >they hold on to the symbols and scriptures, the >history, etc. even when they misinterpret and misrepresent them. >George Holcombe14900 Yellowleaf Tr.Austin, TX >78728Mobile 512/252-2756<mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net>geowanda(a)earthlink.net > >Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hopeâyou do >not have anything to do with it. It just >appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an >alienit just appeareth! You do not even know >why you hope. How in the world could you hope >when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews > > >On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:52 PM, R Williams wrote: >>In the midst of the turmoil the church is going >>through this is one of the most hopeful pieces >>I've seen. The primary question for me is, can >>a church that has been so embedded in >>institutional structures for so long >>realistically be expected to reverse course and >>again become a movemental presence? >> >>Randy >> >>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to >>the course of being in the world; not to be >>supported by it, but to bring it to reality as >>it desires."-Martin Buber (adapted) >>From: James Wiegel <<mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com>jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com> >>To: >>"<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" >><<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net>; >>Colleague Dialogue >><<mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> >>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:42 PM >>Subject: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh >>in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime" >>http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-deleg… >> >>Jim Wiegel >> >>If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot >>paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice >>will be silenced. Vincent Van Gogh >> >>401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 >>+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel >>jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com >><http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/>www.partnersinparticipation.com >> >>Upcoming public course opportunities: >>ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012 >>ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012 >>The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012 >>Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the >>Technology of Participation program is >>available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 >>See short video >>http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details. >> >>--- On Mon, 6/11/12, Timothy Wegner <twegner(a)swbell.net> wrote: >> >>From: Timothy Wegner <twegner(a)swbell.net> >>Subject: [Dialogue] <http://wedgeblade.net/>wedgeblade.net is back up. >>To: "oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" >><oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net>, >>"dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net" <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> >>Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:24 AM >> >>Wedgeblade.net has actually been up since >>yesterday, but I just received a message from >>our host that their backup restore is complete. >>All is good. In fact, all is good even when the >>website is down! Tim ---------- Sent from >>AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email >>_______________________________________________ >>Dialogue mailing >>listDialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Dialogue mailing >>list<mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net<http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Dialogue mailing list >><mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >_______________________________________________ >Dialogue mailing list >Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net > >_______________________________________________Dialogue >mailing >list<mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net<http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net > >_______________________________________________ >Dialogue mailing list >Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net >http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

1 0

Graduation talk
by Ellie Stock 14 Jun '12

14 Jun '12

Fantastic! Congratulations Saraswathi, A.M., and Linda. Thanks so much for sharing this joy with the listserve. Carleton and Ellie -----Original Message----- From: A.M. Noel <amnoel(a)comcast.net> To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 10:50 am Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] FW: Launch of 2nd Edition of Courage to Lead Dear Colleagues, At the request of a few who wanted to see what our daughter spoke at the Graduation here it is. I think she summaries the challenge we face. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aAq4uk3ujc&feature=colike A.M. Noel 206-321-6274 _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

1 0

6/14/12, Spong: "Think Different-Accept Uncertainty" Part XII: Are the Miracles of Jesus Miracles or Interpretive Signs?
by Ellie Stock 14 Jun '12

14 Jun '12

HOMEPAGE MY PROFILE ESSAY ARCHIVE MESSAGE BOARDS CALENDAR "Think Different—Accept Uncertainty" Part XII: Are the Miracles of Jesus Miracles or Interpretive Signs? Last week, we began to look at the miracles attributed to Jesus in the gospels. Most of them are familiar stories to those of us raised in the Christian faith. When I was a young child growing up in North Carolina, I was taught that the miracles were both demonstrations of Jesus’ divinity as well as proofs of that divinity. He could do these supernatural things, I was told, because he and God were identical. It was a comfortable, but pre-modern and uninformed conclusion that was destined not to stand the test of time. Miracles would prove to be a casualty of the advancement of our knowledge, both about the Bible and about how the world operated. The first crack in this religious armor came when I discovered that there were other miracle stories in the Bible connected with people besides Jesus. If one has to be divine to do miracles, then it seemed to me that they should be limited to the life of Jesus. Yet I discovered that miracles are found in three distinct cycles in the biblical narratives, only one of which is related to Jesus. First, there were the miracles associated with Moses, the founder of the Jewish religion. Moses’ power was such that miracles seem to continue to gather around his successor, a man named Joshua. Second, there were miracles associated with Elijah, who was regarded as the founder of the prophetic tradition. Elijah’s power, like that of Moses, was so great that miracles continued to gather around his successor, a man named Elisha. Third, miracles were associated with the Jesus of the gospels and so great was Jesus’ power that these miracles seemed to gather around those who were portrayed as Jesus’ successors, the apostles. Apostolic miracles are narrated in the book of Acts. The pattern was thus quite similar in all three cycles. That was my first surprise. Once I had identified this similarity in the miracle stories in the Bible, I then examined each cycle eager to see if I could discover any other similarities. The first thing I noticed was that prior to Jesus the ability to do miracles did not result in the claim of divinity. Instead the assumption was that the miracle workers were simply so close to God that God’s power could work through them as chosen vessels. No one, however, subscribed divinity to the vessel. Turning first to the Moses-Joshua cycle of stories, I found that the miracles they were said to have performed fell into two categories. One category had the ring of magic about it. These are miracle stories hardly ever quoted, referred to or preached about in Christian churches, not even by fundamentalists. There is almost an embarrassment associated with finding them in the Bible. These magic signs were special powers that God had supposedly given to Moses to equip him to negotiate the release of the Hebrew slave people from Egypt. One of these was Moses’ ability to hurl his staff to the floor and have it turn into a snake or serpent. If Moses’ negotiations with the Pharaoh were not going well, Moses was to resort to this miracle. It was a pretty spectacular trick, but Pharaoh was not impressed. Instead he brought his court magicians into the negotiations and they replicated Moses’ magic. They threw their staffs on the floor and these staffs also became snakes. A miracle that can also be performed by one’s opponents is not an impressive tool for negotiations. The story was rescued, along with God’s power, when we learn that Moses’ snake proceeded to eat up the snakes of the Egyptian magicians. It is no wonder that such a tale is better not being mentioned or even by forgetting that it is actually in the Bible. It is there, however, and you may read it in Exodus 4. The second of the miraculous signs that were supposedly given to Moses in order to assist him in these negotiations was that of thrusting his hand into his bosom, Napoleon style, and then drawing it out to reveal a hand filled with leprosy. When those he was trying to impress were sufficiently horrified he would then thrust his hand back into his bosom and it became clean and healthy again. If those two tricks were not sufficient to convince the Pharaoh of God’s authority and thus of the Pharaoh’s need to release the Hebrew slaves, Moses was empowered to produce a third magical sign by taking some water from the Nile River, pouring it on the ground and watching it turn into blood before the eyes of the assembled hosts. If all of these miracles failed to secure the release of the chosen people from the oppression of the Pharaoh, then the Bible tells us that Moses and God would turn to natural miracles on a grand scale. These heightened miraculous events are described for us in the book of Exodus when we read about the plagues that were to fall on Egypt. There we learn that the waters of the Nile River were turned to blood and became undrinkable. When that did not secure the freedom of the chosen people a multitude of frogs infested the whole land covering everything from the Egyptians’ bedrooms to their kitchens. When that did not work, first gnats and then flies swarmed over the land. Then all the cattle were struck with something like Mad Cow disease. Next, all the Egyptians broke out with boils. This was followed by a storm of hailstones and then the sky was filed with locusts. Next a strange darkness covered all the earth. When none of these plagues caused Pharaoh to change his mind, the final plague visited on this nation was the death of the first born male in every Egyptian household. This slaughter took place on the night of the Passover. Moses was surely believed in the Bible to have had miraculous power to alter the circumstances of the physical world. That power was newly confirmed when later he split the waters of the Red Sea and then was able to call down from heaven bread, called manna, to feed the Israelites in the wilderness. When Moses died, this power was said to have been transferred to Joshua, who could then, in Moses-like fashion, part the waters of the flooded Jordan River; cause the walls around the city of Jericho to fall to the ground, and even stop the sun in the sky to allow more daylight in which to slaughter his enemies, the Ammonites. The miracles attributed to Moses and Joshua were all in the category of manipulating the forces of nature. They were thus “nature” miracles. About 400 years later in Jewish history, miracle stories appeared again in the biblical narrative, but this time about both Elijah and Elisha. Most of their supernatural acts also appeared to be nature miracles. Elijah was said to have had the ability to call down fire from heaven, as well as the ability to manipulate the weather patterns in order to create draughts or to allow rain. Both of these prophets also were said to have had the ability to expand the food supply. It was not manna from heaven, but it was oil and meal that never diminished no matter how much was used. A new miraculous power, however, begins to appear for the first time in the Bible in this Elijah-Elisha cycle. Elijah raises from the dead the only son of a widow. Elisha raises an official’s child from the dead. Elisha heals the leprosy of a Syrian named Naaman. The miraculous tradition is growing. There was one other place in the scriptures before the text reaches the Jesus story, in which the ability to perform miracles is described and anticipated, but not acted out. In the 38th chapter of Isaiah, someone must have asked the prophet how one would know when the Kingdom of God was drawing near or when “the end of the world” could be anticipated. Isaiah responded by describing the signs that will accompany the end of the age. “Water will flow in the desert,” Isaiah said, and then other signs would break out for all to see. Human life will be made whole: “the blind will see, the deaf hear, the lame leap and the mute sing.” So into the Jewish expectations of the messianic age came the idea that the arrival of the Kingdom of God on earth would be announced in the wholeness that would replace the brokenness of human life. When these sources of miracle stories are lifted out of the Hebrew Scriptures we find that many connections to the miracles attributed to Jesus become visible. Turning now to those New Testament miracles of Jesus we discover that the same three categories, which were in the Old Testament cycles, are present there. First, there are the nature miracles: Jesus walks on water; Jesus stills the storm; Jesus expands the food supply of five loaves and two fish to feed a multitude of thousands, and Jesus lays a curse upon a fig tree causing it to die to its roots. These are all nature miracles. Second, Jesus like Elijah and Elisha can raise the dead. In Matthew, Mark and Luke, he raises from the dead a child of an official. In Luke alone, he raises from the dead the only son of a widow. The raising of Lazarus story is told only in John and culminates his book of signs. Finally, in the first three gospels, there is a portrayal of Jesus engaging in numerous healing miracles. He seems to act out the signs of the coming of the Kingdom as enumerated by the prophet Isaiah. He gives sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, wholeness to those who are lame or who possess withered limbs and the ability to speak to those who are mute. Can we begin to see a pattern here? Are the familiar stories found in the Hebrew Bible regarding Moses, Joshua, Elijah and Elisha being dusted off, expanded and retold about Jesus in the New Testament? Are the accounts of eyes being made to see, ears to hear, lameness being overcome and the mute breaking into song historical events or are they interpretive signs designed to convey the conviction that Jesus is the expected messiah, who will inaugurate the Kingdom of God? The analysis raises some different questions and offers us a new way to look at miracles. We will continue this discussion when this series resumes. ~John Shelby Spong Read the essay online here. Bishop Spong's Summer Session at the Pacific School of Religion! Re-Claiming the Bible in a Post-Christian World Instructor: John Shelby Spong Dates and Times: One week: July 16-20, 9am - 1pm Description: Can the Bible, written 2000-3000 years ago, speak in any meaningful way to the 21st century? If it cannot, then is Christianity at an end? If it can, will Christianity look anything like what we have known in the past? Since creeds and doctrines are all constructed on the basis of what was believed to be "Biblical Truth," can any of the current formularies stand? Since liturgy is based on biblical definitions of sin, salvation and God, none of which make much sense to 21st century people, can Christianity tolerate the revolution that it faces? This class will be taught by one who has been a priest and bishop for 56 years with one foot in the institutional church and the other in the academic world of new insights. It is specifically designed for clergy and questing lay people. Course Credits & Cost: 1.5 credits - $990; audit - $495; 2.0 CEUs - $350 Course Number: BS-2117 (credit); BS-0003 (CEUs) Required Text: John Shelby Spong, Re-Claiming the Bible for a Non-Religious World, 2011 HarperCollins, San Francisco. Purchase here. Syllabus: Re-Claiming the Bible in a Post-Christian World Register Question & Answer Frances, via the Internet, writes: Question: You spoke one winter at the Fountains Methodist Church in Fountain Hills, AZ. My daughter-in-law, Sandy, and I had the pleasure of attending and meeting you there as well. Ever since then I have been reading your books, starting with your Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism and you make so much sense to this aging adult. I also look forward to your weekly articles since I subscribe to your web site and learn so much from them. I was raised Catholic, although my mother had been a Presbyterian and couldn’t quite accept the tenets of Catholicism. Yet she insisted that my sister and I attend catechism classes on Saturdays and Sundays taught by the Sisters of Notre Dame. Their lurid stories about death, torture and hell traumatized me and I had nightmares about dying and going to hell in which the nuns assured us that there was a clock that didn’t “tick-tock” as most clocks do, but said, “Never, never, never.” I vowed that if I ever married, it certainly wouldn’t be to a Roman Catholic….but I married an Irish-Catholic, wouldn’t you know? My husband had a massive heart attack in 1967 and died in our 23rd year of marriage. Following his death, I became an Episcopalian where all the color and beauty of the Catholic mass, which I had learned to love, was there but without the rigidity and negativity of the Roman rite. Now I am 89 years old and know that already I’ve been living on borrowed time and so I have searched your excellent books about a life beyond the grave. In the meanwhile, I have been infatuated with a very dear physicist, Dr. Michio Kaku. I heard him being interviewed by CSPAN-2 last October 3rd. He talked about there being 11 different dimensions in our universe, but we haven’t been able to communicate with any of them yet. He suggested that perhaps when we die, God takes that tiny spark which was our life and puts us into another dimension where we live on into eternity. Somehow I was less fearful of death if such a thing were so. Meanwhile, I can’t believe in a three-tiered world with “heaven” above, the earth beneath and “hell” somewhere underground. Yet I yearn to be with my eldest son, Terry, who died in 2001 of melanoma which I believe he contracted having been stationed in an office for the US Navy in Da Nang where our forces sprayed Agent Orange every day in the jungles outside of the city. He had to have been breathing that stuff all of the time that whole year. I have lost a husband, a sister and my parents but there is nothing compared to having lost my dearest son. I long to be with him. I know it’s asking a lot and I know that you do believe we live beyond this earthly existence….but where? Will I ever see my son again? Thank you so much for all of your wonderful books and for your weekly articles on-line and for just YOU being YOU! Answer: Dear Frances, Thank you for your letter and your kind comments. I understand the pain of death and the separation it brings. I have lost both of my parents, my first wife, my brother and several treasured friends. Life does seem fragile and thus drives us to seek hope and certainty in our religious symbols. It is, however, not to be found there and those who pretend that they find it there soon become idolatrous. I tackled the issues you raise in my recent book Eternal Life: A New Vision, but I cannot answer the where question or any other question that arises about life beyond death. I can write about life, but beyond that only by pointing the things to which I believe life points. I do not know Dr. Michio Kaku, but I have little confidence in anyone who asserts that there are “eleven different dimensions in our universe, but we haven’t been able to communicate with any of them yet.” The obvious question is that if we have not been able to communicate with these dimensions, how does he know they are there? How does he know there are eleven? No educated person I know still believes in a three-tiered universe either, but much of our liturgy still assumes it. I do believe that people we love are part of us and we are part of them. I also believe that all of us are part of something beyond ourselves. I call this ‘a universal consciousness,” and I define it only as that which is beyond our limits, but I have no empirical data to cite that will demonstrate this conviction. Life seems to point me there is all that I can say. All I know for sure is that I am alive now. I have been made who I am by the gifts to me of many people. I believe that the word God stands for those gifts that lift me beyond my limits, allow me to escape my survival-driven existence and invite me into a deeper experience of being human. As I give my life away, I experience life being expanded. As I share love, I find my ability to love is increased. When I have the courage to be myself, I find my participation in being itself enhanced. That is where I have glimpses of the divine and intimations of immortality. I wish you well, ~John Shelby Spong Announcements Read what Bishop Spong has to say about A Joyful Path Progressive Christian Spiritual Curriculum for Young Hearts and Minds: "The great need in the Christian church is for a Sunday school curriculum for children that does not equate faith with having a pre-modern mind. The Center for Progressive Christianity has produced just that. Teachers can now teach children in Sunday school without crossing their fingers. I endorse it wholeheartedly." Subscribers, please remember that your subscription is automatically renewed. You can unsubscribe at any time. Simply login to access your profile page and cancel your account. Login to be able to comment directly on the website. Join in the discussion! Look for Bishop Spong on Facebook and LIKE the Facebook page for ProgressiveChristianity.org! You can also follow Bishop Spong on Twitter. Thank you for taking this journey with us! Any questions or concerns, please contact us at support(a)johnshelbyspong.com or 503-236-3545. forward to a friend Copyright © 2012 ProgressiveChristianity.org, All rights reserved. You are receiving this email because you have a membership at our website. Our mailing address is: ProgressiveChristianity.org 4916 Pt Fosdick Dr, NW #148 Gig Harbor, WA 98335 Add us to your address book

1 0

More on Dag Hammarskjold's Poem
by steve har 14 Jun '12

14 Jun '12

For those of you who did NRM research in the RH Odyssey construct, you may remember this page with Dag https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xyd3jYmOpT4cSCfd_4W2l-Cqkbb_ExlmxW7_VNw… [This page is in the new ICA-USA.org Anyone remember what the phrase "THE DIALOGUE establishing interior community" meant? I'm thinking this was a phenomenological category of meditation. Is this right? Wondering why you would do that as a "between the ears" conversation? In the Sot Zen tradition I'm currently studying with a priest named Dosho Port, he says there is "just sitting" on the cushon and then there is something like "just puzzling" often in a formal dialogue called "Dokusan" where the one who has something to say speaks and the one who has space to listens listens. There is a kind of intentional conversation sometimes around an unanswerable question like what precisely is the value of a dead cat? [4 legged kind] Anyone know how Dag's poem came to be a point of dialogue for a phenomenological inquiry? Even better: got an Odyssey experience to share? Steve

1 0

wedgeblade.net is back up.
by Timothy Wegner 14 Jun '12

14 Jun '12

Wedgeblade.net has actually been up since yesterday, but I just received a message from our host that their backup restore is complete. All is good. In fact, all is good even when the website is down! Tim ---------- Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email

6 6

Launch of 2nd Edition of Courage to Lead
by jsanders＠bconnex.net 13 Jun '12

13 Jun '12

The following is a short article Richard and I wrote on the Launch of the Courage to Lead book. Enjoy THE ICA CANADA Courage to Lead Book Launch 2012 marks the 50th year for the ICA. We celebrated the last 50 years by attending ICA Canadas Annual General Meeting and the Launch of the Courage to Lead second edition. We were met with wonderful smells from India as Mariam Gibson had prepared a gourmet selection of Indian dishes. Old friends and colleagues milled with fresh young faces of folks who have recently met the ICA. What a thrill to see such vitality. The launch was initiated by Jeanette Stanfield as she placed Brians photo on a table in the front of the room. His dedication to the creation of the first edition was relived in stories, jokes and memories. We were reminded that the initial creation was born from the questions of board members and particularly from a young board member Shelley Cleverly who felt passionately the need to share the depths of the ICA commitment to society and a lifestyle of service. Shelley and Duncan Holmes recounted their memories of Monday morning meetings where colleagues brainstormed common wisdom, read Brians writing and probed for clarity and insight. The first version was published in 2000 and seminars were launched in Toronto. Over the years a faculty has grown up through the courses being offered publicly at ICA and on a regular basis through the University Health Network which staffs several hospitals in downtown Toronto. A colleague who had surgery in one of those hospitals recently commented on how caring she experienced the doctors, nurses and maintenance staff. Twelve young faculty were on hand to enable us to encounter the twelve chapters. Independently, Richard and I both selected the chapter on Historical Involvement along with David Patterson, a long-time colleague. In our time together we explored the passing of the baton from one generation to the next. Perhaps this was what was most evident in the evenings celebration that the vision of a baton of service and life abundant was being passed to a new generation. We ended the evening with toasts and a group creation of a drawing which claimed promises for The Courage to Lead . The original edition captured the existential wisdom of thousands of colleagues over several decades of Order and movement life. The second edition is the same book made new. Duncan Holmes in the forward of the book says: We have worked to make the book more accessible, the language easier and the references more familiar. Sometimes we have added more current examples. Ive heard people say that they didnt understand a chapter the first time around. The second time, it was Wow! Now I get it. What a powerhouse! In this revised edition we wanted to make the powerhouse in each chapter visible on the first read. Brians laughing voice is still present. There are also the life stories of a new generation willing to transform themselves and build the new society. Youll want to get your copy and share it with the next generation. The best part is that you can download an ebook or get a paperback from iUniverse bookstore.com. The paperback will be printed in Canada, USA, Great Britain or Australia depending on the location of the order and shipped around the world. Or ask your favorite bookstore to order it. Barnes and Noble is already carrying the 2nd edition of The Courage to Lead, Transform Self, Transform Society. On the cover of the 2nd edition, you will see geese flying in the formation of a wedge. Hope you like it. Jan Sanders -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft® Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail

2 1

Re: [Dialogue] Mowanjum Pictures Anyone?
by marilyncrocker＠juno.com 13 Jun '12

13 Jun '12

Thanks, Dharma. Many of the stunning art pieces in your link remind me of the bark painting George Winnigudj sent to Joe and me following the July - August 1969 Singapore ITI. As you probably recall, George and his colleague Silas Roberts were two aboriginal "pioneers" who joined 118 other people from across Seapac and South Asia for that first 6-week training program. George's gift to us arrived in Singapore in September 1969 in the midst of typhoon season. The local post office was flooded, and closed for days. When we received the very waterlogged package and opened it, the bark was a bit buckled, but the images of crocodiles and turtles as clear as can be. We still treasure that gift and the gesture of friendship across cultures it represents for us. Such fond memories of those days working with you in KL and Singapore.... Grace and peace, Marilyn On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 08:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Dharmalingam Vinasithamby <dvinasithamby(a)yahoo.com> writes: Hi Steve, I'm not familiar with the Mowanjum folks but those who are might recognise some of these artists from the Mowanjum website -http://www.mowanjumarts.com/artists/index.php regards, Dharma From: steve har <stevehar11201(a)gmail.com> To: dialogue(a)wedgeblade.net Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 8:21 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Mowanjum Pictures Anyone? I'd like to make a storyboard of Shropshire telling that "omega point" story and share it. Anyone have a picture of Mowanjum, maybe some local characters there, maybe a picture of Shropshire? Steve -- Steve Harrington _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net Dr. Marilyn R. Crocker 123 Sanborn Road West Newfield, ME 04095

4 3