- Dialogue - lists.wedgeblade.net

Guns
by jlepps＠pc.jaring.my 16 Dec '12

16 Dec '12

Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents: I. CONTEXT I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill). For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes. So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity. One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible. II. IDEAS In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you. Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above. So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument. To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!) Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!) In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination. Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate. In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo… Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!). Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas. Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary. John

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Re: [Dialogue] Sandy Hook and Gun Control: Something to do
by George Holcombe 16 Dec '12

16 Dec '12

If you have don't this already. here is something you can do right now. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/immediately-address-issue-gun-con… George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda(a)earthlink.net Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hope—you do not have anything to do with it. It just appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an alien—it just appeareth! You do not even know why you hope. How in the world could you hope when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews

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Carolyn Lukensmeyer
by Donald Bushman 15 Dec '12

15 Dec '12

I worked with her when she was Dick Celeste's chief of staff.

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Re. Start the conversation
by Michael Shaw 15 Dec '12

15 Dec '12

How do we let others know our concern and willingness to engage? Is the email. Below relevant to the conversation? Peace, Michael sent from my phone Begin forwarded message: > From: "Chris Bowers, Daily Kos" <campaigns(a)dailykos.com> > Date: December 15, 2012, 11:22:26 PST > To: D.michael.shaw(a)comcast.net > Subject: We have to talk about this > Reply-To: campaigns(a)dailykos.com > > > Douglas, please click here to sign our petition asking President Obama to help start a national conversation about gun control. > > If we don't start talking now, when will we ever? And if the president doesn't lead the discussion, who will? > > Please click here to sign the petition. We will deliver the signatures to the White House. > > Thank you, > Chris Bowers > Campaign Director, Daily Kos > > P.S. Please help keep Daily Kos strong by chipping in $3. > To unsubscribe from ALL Daily Kos emails, visit this link. To opt-out ONLY from action emails, visit this link. >

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FW: 'SUMMER HEAT RELIEF'
by frank bremner 15 Dec '12

15 Dec '12

Thanks, David Zahrt, for your reflections on the seasons. I often speak with friends and acquaintances, when we reflect on places we've seen, of "the long hot summer" and humidity of Chicago, clearing the sidewalk of ice in Denver, not wearing a beanie when goping out for a winter date in Chicago (and having a severe cold the next day), walking/running in the sun in Philadelphia and going around the corner of a building out of the sunlight and experiencing bitter cold, and driving from L.A to Chicago on snowy roads and running off to one side into a ditch (just a few metres/yards from a petrol station), and of the Chicago blizzard of 1978/79 when cars were buried in carparks (including the one opposite 4750 North Sheridan). And others. Lately in Adelaide we've been experiencing 30 plus (Celsius). Once I used to teach students how to do Fahrenheit-to-Celsius conversions, and the converse. It's all metric now, even the weather reports, so I've lost the formula. I even have to explain Fahrenheit, and other pre-metric measurements like ounces and pounds, pennies and shillings, ergs and poundals and so on, to students coming across them in their reading of novels from the 1960s and before. A great Christmas to you all - whether there's snow for Bing Crosby songs, or a bush celebration with "six white boomers" (Rolf Harris), or whatever. Frank Bremner From: rogerporter777(a)hotmail.com Subject: 'SUMMER HEAT RELIEF' Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 12:56:15 +1100 'SUMMER HEAT RELIEF' rogerporter777(a)hotmail.com

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Sorting out the Seasons
by David Zahrt 15 Dec '12

15 Dec '12

I think this is appropriate for the Advent Season. In working through my relationship to the seasons I began to see a connection between Advent, Easter and the seasons {attached] Or its up on Wedgeblade. You can go to < http://wiki.wedgeblade.net/pub/Main/DavidZahrt/SORTING_OUT_THE_SEASONS.pdf> and view it. David

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Re: [Dialogue] A Conversation with Advent
by coevolutionacademy＠juno.com 14 Dec '12

14 Dec '12

Very beautiful Janice! Rose Anne ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Janice Ulangca" <aulangca(a)stny.rr.com> To: "Colleague Dialogue" <Dialogue(a)wedgeblade.net> Subject: [Dialogue] A Conversation with Advent Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 10:46:06 -0500 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> To my friends and many teachers/mentors in the ICA community - I continue learn so much from you!Profound gratitude and wishes for a splendid, radiant season.Janice Ulangca Advent: A coming into being 3rd definition, Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary A Conversation with Advent O Advent I think you are my favorite Of all the seasons in the church year Because you ask that I wake up, be vigilant, And open to some startling surprise, some wonder That never has existed �til today. Advent, beyond the rush, the noisy fun, the customary words, There is a vast and tender silence And I will meet you there. At first it may seem boring to be still But slowly in the quietness there will be A radiance, a peace, a profound care. Advent, I will dare to bring you this year�s pain The darkness, failures and the broken plans. Perhaps in the stillness With patience and expectancy They may gently be exchanged For healing and for hope . . . And it will not be fake To welcome Joy. JU 2012 ____________________________________________________________ Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50cb57d35deb357d27878st02vuc

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"Mom" is Marianna Bailey
by James Wiegel 14 Dec '12

14 Dec '12

Lynn Brailsford Teaneck, NJ These cookies were made by Grandma Hines and will forever be associated with feelings of being loved and cherished. Our family is from Mt. Airy, NC (aka Mayberry of Andy Griffith fame) so I always thought this was a southern recipe. I have seen and tasted northern 'imposters', but none have come close to the delicate, mouthwatering melting of butter, flour, and powdered sugar accompanied by the delicate crunch of pecans in your mouth! Grandma called these 'Sand Dabs'. Mom makes them for us and the grandkids now...I hope this posting passes on the love for another family! SAND DABS 3/4 cup butter 4 tsp powdered sugar 2 cup flour 2 tsp water 2 tsp vanilla extract 1 cup finely chopped pecans Cream the butter and sugar. Combine other ingredients. Take about a tablespoon of mixture and roll it into a ball. Place on cookie sheet. Bake 45 min @ 325. After cooling, use a sifter to sprinkle cookies with powdered sugar. Jim Wiegel "Life has got a habit of not standing hitched. You got to ride it like you find it.. You got to change with it." Woody Guthrie 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods Coming in February. Ask about an inhouse course ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday of every month Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details.

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A Conversation with Advent
by Janice Ulangca 14 Dec '12

14 Dec '12

To my friends and many teachers/mentors in the ICA community - I continue learn so much from you! Profound gratitude and wishes for a splendid, radiant season. Janice Ulangca Advent: A coming into being 3rd definition, Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary A Conversation with Advent O Advent I think you are my favorite Of all the seasons in the church year Because you ask that I wake up, be vigilant, And open to some startling surprise, some wonder That never has existed 'til today. Advent, beyond the rush, the noisy fun, the customary words, There is a vast and tender silence And I will meet you there. At first it may seem boring to be still But slowly in the quietness there will be A radiance, a peace, a profound care. Advent, I will dare to bring you this year's pain The darkness, failures and the broken plans. Perhaps in the stillness With patience and expectancy They may gently be exchanged For healing and for hope . . . And it will not be fake To welcome Joy. JU 2012

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12/13/12, Spong: The Birth of Jesus, Part V Matthew’s Original Story The Prologue and Tamar, the Incestuous One
by Ellie Stock 13 Dec '12

13 Dec '12

HOMEPAGE MY PROFILE ESSAY ARCHIVE MESSAGE BOARDS CALENDAR The Birth of Jesus, Part V Matthew’s Original Story The Prologue and Tamar, the Incestuous One Matthew is the gospel writer (82-85) who first introduced the story of Jesus’ miraculous or virgin birth into the tradition. He did so with the seventeen most boring verses in the entire Bible! (See Matt. 1:1-17) These verses are Matthew’s version of the genealogy of Jesus, but we refer to them the “who begat whom” verses. Yet in these incredibly boring verses, I am convinced that we can discover clues that will reveal both why the virgin birth story was developed in the first place and why it seems to be of such importance to the author of this second gospel to be written. First, some comments on the genealogy in general. Matthew began his description of the line that he claimed produced Jesus with Abraham, the traditional father of the Jewish nation. Matthew was himself a deeply committed Jewish writer, probably a scribe, and he was writing for a traditional Jewish faith community. He was, therefore, very interested in grounding the Jesus story in the very DNA of Jewish life and history. So he made Abraham, the first pivotal person in Jewish history, the first pivotal person in Jesus’ lineage. David, who originated the royal family that ruled some portion of the Hebrew nation for between 400 and 500 years, became his second pillar in Jesus’ ancestry. The next historical marker in Jesus background that is reflected in this genealogy was what is called the Exile. The citizens of Judah, first in 596 BCE and finally in 586 BCE, after being defeated by the Babylonians, were marched into the land of their conquerors to spend the period of Jewish history, known as the Babylonian captivity, as an underclass of laborers. This Exile lasted for two to three generations and was the time in history when the life of the Jewish nation quite literally hung by a thread. The last period covered by Matthew’s genealogy was from the Exile to the birth of Jesus. Matthew suggested that each of these epochs in Jewish history had been fourteen generations long. That is the point in which every shred of literal accuracy, which people like to attribute to this gospel, begins to break down. Abraham, if he lived at all, would be dated around the year 1850 BCE. David became king of the nation, first in Hebron, about the year 1000 and seven years later in Jerusalem, his newly-conquered capitol. So, between Abraham and David, there are some 850 years. If a generation is considered to be 20 years, which actually might be far too long in that time when life expectancy did not exceed 40 years, there would have been 42 generations between Abraham and David. The time from King David to the Exile would be 400 years plus or some 20 generations. The time from the Exile to the birth of Jesus would have been around 600 years or some 30 generations. So Matthew’s scheme for dividing Jewish history into the stages that he wishes to describe breaks down quickly. To achieve his 14 generation mathematical symmetry Matthew literally had to omit the names of some of the kings in Judah who reigned between David and the Exile who are actually described in the Hebrew Bible. The next problem that gives a biblical commentator pause with this genealogy, which goes from Abraham to David to Joseph to demonstrate Jesus’ royal lineage as a son of David, is that when he arrives at the virgin birth story, his narrative completely denies the role of paternity to Joseph in the life of Jesus. The Virgin Birth story says that Joseph, the presumed male agent in conception, was replaced by the Holy Spirit. So this elaborate effort to ground Jesus in the life of the Jewish people is compromised by the account of his miraculous birth. Literalism wobbles visibly. Another unusual detail in what Matthew portrays as the lineage of Jesus is that he included the names of four women in the genealogy. In this patriarchal world that was quite unusual. Women were not thought then to be equal partners in the procreation process. In that day no one knew that women produced an egg cell and were biologically co-creators of every baby that had ever been born. Women were rather thought of only as nurturing wombs, into which the males placed the seeds of life that women simply brought to maturity. Yet Matthew included four women in this genealogy. They were not mythical women either, for the story of each of these women can be found chronicled in the pages of the Hebrew Scriptures. Their stories were known, but even if they had not been known, anyone could go to the Bible and read them. The other fascinating thing about these women was that by the standards of that day, each of them was considered and defined as a “morally compromised woman.” Please listen to the drama being presented here. In this 17 verse genealogy with which Matthew introduced the story of the Virgin Birth, he made the claim that four of the women who were in the line that produced Jesus of Nazareth, were what his generation would have called unclean or scandalous women. What do you imagine was Matthew’s purpose in opening his story this way? The first of these “shady ladies” was Tamar and her story can be found in Genesis, chapter 38. She was the wife of Er, the first born son of the patriarch Judah. Judah had two other sons, Onan and Shelah, a fact that becomes important as the story unfolds. This chapter tells us that Er was “wicked in the sight of the Lord and the Lord slew him.” (Gen. 38:7). Under the law that governed widows in Hebrew history, it thus became the duty of Onan, the next oldest son, to marry the wife of his deceased brother in order “to raise up offspring for your brother.” (Gen. 38:8). Onan objected and practiced a primitive kind of birth control that came to be called “Onanism.” This act displeased God, according to this story, and so we are told that God also killed Onan. Now it became Shelah’s turn to marry his brother’s widow, but Shelah was only a boy, about five years of age and, having seen what happened to his two older brothers when they were married to Tamar, he was eager to avoid this fate. So Judah violated the code of behavior and the demands of the Torah and sent Tamar back to her family of origin, to live under her father’s protection. In this patriarchal society, Tamar was now “damaged goods” and she would no longer be thought of as “marriageable.” Judah, seeking to perfume his behavior, promised to send for her when Shelah grew up. Some time passed during which Shelah did grow up, but Tamar was forgotten. Next, we are told, Judah’s wife died and now he was a widower. After a period of time for mourning, Judah returned to his business as the owner of large flocks of sheep and planned a trip to Timnah to talk with his sheep shearers. When Tamar learned of this intended visit, she removed her widow’s clothing, put on a veil and the clothes of a prostitute and positioned herself at the entrance of her town which was on the road to Timnah and where Judah would have to pass by inevitably. He did. Judah saw her and assuming, as she intended him to do, that she was a prostitute, he turned aside to make a contract with her. They bargained for a price and it was agreed that her payment for “services rendered” would be a “kid from my flocks,” which would be sent to her the next day. Wise to the ways of the world, Tamar, still veiled, required that Judah give her something of value, something that she would return when his payment of the lamb was received. They settled on Judah’s signet ring, the cord that was wrapped around his waist and his staff. The two of them then went off to have their tryst, after which Judah went on his way and Tamar went back to her father’s home and once more put on the garments of her widowhood. The next day, Judah, true to his word, sent one of his servants with the lamb to redeem his property. This servant, however, could not find the woman. He inquired of the people of the village as to the identity of the prostitute, who solicited business at the gates of this village. They denied that anyone had ever done that in their town. The servant returned and reported to Judah his failure to locate this woman. Judah, not willing to the subject of ridicule, decided to forgo any further effort to recover his ring, cord and staff, charging them off as “losses from a business deal,” and a number of months passed. Then Judah heard the local gossip that Tamar, his daughter-in-law was pregnant and would soon produce a “child by harlotry.” Judah was incensed at this news and now, exercising his authority over this woman he had earlier rejected, ordered her to be brought out and burned at the stake. As she was being led to her place of execution, she sent word to Judah, her father-in-law, saying, “I am with child by the man to whom these belong” and she included his signet ring, his cord and his staff. Judah recognized them as his own and publicly repented. “She is more righteous than I, inasmuch as I did not give her to my son Shelah,” he said. Because sex with one’s daughter-in-law in that day was considered to be incest, Judah did not “lie with her again.” (Gen. 38:26), but he did provide for her care and after she gave birth, married her and brought her into his harem. Tamar became the mother of twins whom she named Perez and Zerah. That is the story. Matthew, by using the name Tamar, incorporated her story into the genealogy of Jesus. He was saying through this device that the line that produced Jesus went through Judah to Perez to the son of Perez, whose name was Hezron. Here, Matthew was asserting that the Christ Child had an ancestor who was guilty of incest. It is an interesting way to open a narrative about the Virgin Birth! That, however, is only the first of the women to whom Matthew alludes in this genealogy. The other three are equally as fascinating and provocative. We will turn to each of them in detail as this series unfolds. ~John Shelby Spong Read the essay online here. Question & Answer Randy Bell, from Florida writes: Question: I am a 21-year-old student from Florida. Over the past year, I have gone through some changes regarding my view of religion and the world and would just like to thank you for your ideas on the current and future state of Christianity. Your writings and talks have been instrumental in helping me understand the role of religion and spirituality in my life. I never got to speak to my hero, Christopher Hitchens, before he died, something I regard as my only real regret in life. But I am glad I have a chance to thank you for your message of love, hope and a more modern take on a topic that has great meaning to me. Answer: Dear Randy, Thank you for your letter. I am delighted that you believe yourself to have been helped by my writings and I am pleased that you put your thoughts into words. I am also gratified to be in your pantheon of heroes alongside Christopher Hitchens. The world lost one of its most creative minds when he died. I knew Christopher Hitchens, but not well, and had the pleasure of being part of a two-hour debate with him on ITV in London a number of years ago, well before his book God is Not Great came out. He considered me an inadequate Christian, since I did not fall within his narrow definition of what a Christian is or believes. He assumed that the only way to think about Christianity was to define it in rather traditional, rigid and medieval terms, as he constantly did. He spent a lot of his time attacking his version of Christianity, which I had no trouble attacking as well. I thought of him as a brilliant man and an able rhetorician, but one who was very poorly informed about the movements in historical Christianity. He did not know there was any other way to view Christianity than the way he so thoroughly rejected and enjoyed lampooning. That is where I think he was wrong. In my series, recently completed through this column, entitled, “Think Different, Accept Uncertainty,” I spelled out an alternative to Hitchens’ version of Christianity that he and I both find easily rejectable. That series is now available, if you are interested, along with all of my previous columns, to those who are subscribers. That series filled about half a year in this column’s history. I hope the world recognizes, as you seem to do, that both Christopher Hitchen and I have a role to play in seeking God’s truth. ~John Shelby Spong Announcements Between now and December 31st, get a great deal on the perfect Christmas gift! Give someone you love a year-long subscription to Bishop Spong’s Weekly Newsletter, and you’ll be giving them the insight and thoughtful commentary you have come to appreciate from one of the leading voices for “believers in exile”. Plus, you’ll be giving them access to over eight years of weekly essays that Bishop Spong has written — all the way back to 2004! There are 2 simple ways you can do this: 1) Simply send in a check for $25 to: ProgressiveChristianity.org 3530 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Suite 1 Portland, OR 97214 ~Please clearly write the name and email address of the person you are giving to OR 2) Email us today at support(a)johnshelbyspong.com with: ~Your name and email address ~Your friend’s name and email address **Then we will send you a paypal invoice that you can pay directly using a credit card. Use one of these 2 simple steps and we will send your friend a Special Gift email notification - letting them know that about your gift. Then they will begin to receive Bishop Spong’s essay every Thursday for the whole rest of the year! Pass on all that you love about Bishop Spong — Give a gift Subscription today! Any questions or concerns, please contact us at support(a)johnshelbyspong.com or 503-236-3545. Copyright © 2012 ProgressiveChristianity.org, All rights reserved. You are receiving this email because you have a membership at our website. Our mailing address is: ProgressiveChristianity.org 3530 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Unit 1 Portland, OR 97214 Add us to your address book If you are a paying subscriber, you may login and cancel your account. Sent to elliestock(a)aol.com — why did I get this? unsubscribe from this list | update subscription preferences ProgressiveChristianity.org · 3530 SE Hawthorne Blvd. · Unit 1 · Portland, OR 97214

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