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Please join us in looking at "A Path Forward" Zoom meeting starting tomorrow, March 22 at 3:00 pm Central Time. Looking forward to seeing you
by Bill Parker 21 Mar '25

21 Mar '25

Join Zoom Meeting https://us02web.zoom.us/j/85477655272?pwd=UZQmRRRSO3VFTSedpugGKPInxMyR0S.1 Meeting ID: 854 7765 5272 Passcode: 361043 --- One tap mobile +13462487799,,85477655272#,,,,*361043# US (Houston) +16694449171,,85477655272#,,,,*361043# US --- Dial by your location • +1 346 248 7799 US (Houston) • +1 669 444 9171 US • +1 669 900 6833 US (San Jose) • +1 719 359 4580 US • +1 253 205 0468 US • +1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma) • +1 309 205 3325 US • +1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago) • +1 360 209 5623 US • +1 386 347 5053 US • +1 507 473 4847 US • +1 564 217 2000 US • +1 646 931 3860 US • +1 689 278 1000 US • +1 929 205 6099 US (New York) • +1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC) • +1 305 224 1968 US Meeting ID: 854 7765 5272 Passcode: 361043 Find your local number: https://us02web.zoom.us/u/kez5rUvyDB

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compassionate conversations
by Robertson Work 20 Mar '25

20 Mar '25

Dear colleagues, Just learned that my "Compassionate Conversations" published on Substack are read by people in 37 countries and in 33 states in the US. Grateful for these connections. May these essays care for minds and hearts and catalyze compassionate lives, local communities, countries, and a planetary civilization. If you want to read or subscribe, you can do so here: https://robertsonwork.substack.com/ Take care, Rob Robertson Work Books and bio<https://www.amazon.com/Robertson-Work/e/B075612GBF> Essays on Substack<https://robertsonwork.substack.com/> Videos and articles<https://www.globalcompassioncoalition.org/author/robertson-work/> Interviews and poetry<https://www.globalheart2heart.com/a-compassionate-civilization-creating-a-n…>

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Prescient Thoughts from John Epps in 2004
by Jo Nelson 17 Mar '25

17 Mar '25

Hi, all, I have been cleaning up many files from ICA Associates as a prelude to scanning important insights to scan and getting rid of all the paper files. I found this printed post that John Epps sent in 2004 and I think it is really prescient about our times in 2025. Much of what he says here about the “00’s” is even more stronger and evident now. Certainly it seems blatantly obvious to me now. I think this is worth reading and may catalyze our creative thinking. I also found a draft paper of Wayne’s thoughts that I think were catalyzed by John’s post. Two versions of it were next to John’s post in the file folder. I could also send it later if there is interest. Subject: [DIALOGUE] some thoughts on the spirit mood and questions Date:Thursday, March 11, 2004 9: 29 PM Colleagues: Here are some thoughts on what may be going on: The Spirit of the 00s We once analyzed the spirit mood of the times through these categories: An External Situation creates and Internal Crisis which raises an Existential Question from which we try to Escape. For me in the 80s the External Situation was the collapse of boundaries which created the Internal Crisis of inescapable diversity which raised the Existential Question of Where do I stand? We escaped through mindless relativism. It seems to me the 90s were a time in which the External Situation featured an emphasis on the intangibles, which raised the Internal Crisis of meaning which raised the Existential Question of "What is my worth? We escaped through spiritualism. Now we're into the 00s. The External Situation is a collapse of stabilizing structures (economic, political and cultural - perhaps 9-11 is a symbol of a much wider collapse). The economic structures collapsed when the dot-com bubble burst, the recession hit, jobs were lost, and the Enron/Dot-Com scandal occurred. That has even hit Martha Stewart. Economic structures clearly showed their vulnerability. The political collapse came with the elections of 2000 and was confirmed with the pull-out from global treaties, and the unilateral invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Political structures, including the UN, just don't seem to work very well. And the cultural - perhaps the RCC disclosure of pedophilia in the priesthood can symbolize that, but you can also find collapse in even the Superbowl's halftime show! And baseball, the national sport, is being portrayed as fraught with drug-enhanced players. Cultural structures, even the "pop" ones, just don't seem to hold values any more. What's happening is not that the structures collapse literally, but rather that their trustworthiness has been radically called into question. They're still around, but not providing us any stability or security. Our Internal Crisis in all this is security. All the structures that provided a measure of stability and predictability are coming un-glued. We don't have anything reliable to count on as a shield against chaos. So we hawk security, as though a new cabinet post or new airport inspections could protect us from - what? And this raises the Existential Question of "What can I trust?" We escape that question through belligerence. I'm quite amazed at the level of anger that has come into the political scene in the USA. But you see it in other realms as well - the hatred thinly disguised as religious fundamentalism and the malevolence of virus-creators and spam mongers. This doesn't even mention the explicitly belligerent views of the "hawks" in the international scene who are not simply limited to the present administration. While these illustrations are heavily Western, I believe you can find the same dynamics operating elsewhere. Take the Palestinians, for example. Obviously their economy has collapsed. Their political structure, as soon as it's set up, is taken apart again, either because of internal struggles or by the Israelis. Their culture seems devoid of significating power. So with the crisis of security and no answer to "What can I trust?" there is a turn to suicide bombings. Which, of course, work only to exaggerate the conditions that caused them in the first place. I'd be willing to content that terrorism is a manifestation of this spirit mood in its escape mode. You can probably find these dynamics at work in cultures throughout the world. What would it mean to trust that which takes out of being all those structures that provide some measure of security against the lurking chaos in which we live? That's the question of God. Your additions, corrections, suggestions and recommendations would be most welcome as we try to keep tabs on what is going on in the world these days. Take care, Jo Jo Nelson jo.r.nelson(a)gmail.com

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Reprise: How Then Shall We Live? (in such a time as this . . .)
by Ellie Stock 16 Mar '25

16 Mar '25

Reprise: How Then Shall We LIve? (in such a time as this . . .)Ellie elliestock(a)aol.com HOW THEN SHALL WE LIVE? What do we call what calls from the deep, that pulses through stars and quickens heart’s beep,that surges through waves and cleanses with fire,emerges from dust and breathes soul’s desire?What do we name what mocks human pride,that bends the Tree of Life, sustaining being’s tide? How do we greet what calls to our deep,that lasers vulnerabilities and loves us from fear’s sleep,that mourns lost illusions and leaves us defenseless,transforms the present moment and awakens all senses?How do we embrace what eternalizes finitude,that opens wide portals, flooding tears of gratitude? How do we know what calls us to decide,that gives no guarantee and provides no place to hide,that beckons all our care and trumps the doubt within,reckons despair and hope and connects all creature kin?How do we abide in what struggles to create,that explodes time and space, freeing partners with Earth’s fate? How then shall we live what chisels passion’s edge,that re-sculpts past’s confoundings and empowers future’s wedge,that compels us far beyond mind’s strength or comfort zone,propels trusting steps into great work’s bidding unknown?How shall we now journey in vast communitywith that which journeys through us profoundly and boundlessly? ~ ejhs

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Re: [Dialogue] ICA group on a path forward
by James Wiegel 16 Mar '25

16 Mar '25

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Kitchen Table Conversation to Discuss Challenges and Actions to Address Them
by Jo Nelson 15 Mar '25

15 Mar '25

The following conversation is designed for both facilitators and non-facilitators, in other words for anyone who is curious and willing to dialogue with others. This is my contribution to the situation we are facing. I invite you to try something like this. One of the things I have heard the most in the last few months is a yearning to understand how different people can think so differently about what is going on in the world. Others have said that making meaningful connections with others is really important for mental health. Since my vocation is about building bridges between people, and my career has involved leading conversations among all kinds of people, I thought perhaps creating a relaxed conversation with friends and acquaintances that anyone could host could lead to addressing this need. The design of this conversation is inspired by two main resources: I Never Thought of it That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times, by Monica Guzman The Art of Focused Conversation Second Edition: More than 100 Ways to Access Group Wisdom in your Organization, by R.Brian Stanfield and Jo Nelson, General Editors There are three parts to this guide. 1. Suggestions for the facilitator for setting up the environment 2. Leading the conversation: a. The first conversation: Narrowing the possible events to be discussed to one event b. The second conversation: Dialogue about the chosen event 3. An optional conversation to evaluate the session 1. Setting Up the Environment: Invite neighbours or friends to come together around your kitchen table or living room to have some facilitated open dialogue about current challenges. At first, it may be wise to have a small group of people who may have similar thinking. Let them know ahead of time that this is an invitation for those who are curious and want to explore the issues from many perspectives. You may also share the working assumptions that will create safety to speak together (See below). Let people know that you will facilitate the conversation, and that while you are facilitating, you are detached from any opinions you might have about the content – your role is to ask questions and guide the conversation so that everyone has a chance to participate and it stays respectful. Be ready to stop the event (respectfully) if it degenerates into digging in, arguing or ranting, or verbal attacks. Not everyone is prepared to participate in a conversation like this. If the first one goes well, try some groups with more diversity in their perspectives, but who are curious and have a readiness to be in dialogue. You do not need to ask every question laid out below, but ask at least one or two at each level. The questions are designed to follow a pattern of clear thinking, from surface to depth, which guide the allows the understanding of the group to evolve naturally as each level builds on the level before it. The intent of the conversation: The Topic: What is going on right now that presents challenges for us, and that we might be able to do something about? The Rational Aim: To have articulated, heard, and understood different perspectives on at least one current event and its impacts. A list of a few doable positive actions that will make a difference. Practical recommendations to share with leaders and decision-makers. The Experiential Aim: Each participant will feel heard and will feel that they have connected with others who care. Each participant will have a better understanding of what is going on and of other perspectives. (A small local conversation might connect later to many larger conversations, either on larger topics, or with other groups of people.) 2. Starting the Conversation Serve tea, coffee, snacks…. Make sure people are comfortable. Opening: Welcome everyone! (a round of short introductions if people don’t know each other) I’ve invited you here to have a conversation about current events – to choose one that we would like to explore, and then to have a thoughtful conversation, hearing each others’ perspectives about it. Perhaps we will come up with some positive actions we can do later, or recommendations for leaders and decision-makers. My role is to make it a safe place to ask questions and explore different perspectives on the topic we choose to explore. When I am asking questions, I do not have answers. I am leaving my opinions at the door so that I can guide respectful dialogue. I’m going to ask questions in a specific order that is designed to move our thinking from what we observe, through our internal reactions and memories, to interpretations, and finally to decision and closure. There are two parts to this conversation: the first to pick one event to explore, and the second longer one to explore it. These are some assumptions in guiding this conversation: Working Assumptions: Everyone has wisdom – life experience, personal perspectives, knowledge that they are bringing with them. We need everyone’s wisdom for the wisest result -- just as the value of a diamond lies in its many different facets, the value of a conversation lies in understanding the many different perspectives people bring. There are no wrong (or right) answers in this conversation – we do not have to agree, just to listen to understand where someone is coming from. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts – we will all have a better understanding of what is going on after we listen to all the perspectives. Everyone will hear others and be heard – we will all speak and listen to understand, not to argue or convince others. All of this is about respecting different perspectives, both in listening and asking questions to clarify and understand. 2a. First Conversation: Narrowing the topic to pick one to explore: Objective Level: What are some news events, local (or at any other level), that you have heard recently? Not commentary, but the actual event itself. Give it to us as a headline (not the whole story). (take brief notes) Reflective Level: Which of these news events are you most familiar with? Which of these raise the strongest emotion for you? Which of these are you least interested in? Interpretive Level: Let’s pick one to explore more deeply. There are several more questions here to weigh the events up before we decide: Which of these events seems like it has the most resonance with this group? Which seems like it needs the most exploration to understand what’s really going on? Which one of these do we feel we might potentially meaningfully address through our actions?” Decisional Level: Which of these shall we pick for this conversation today? (We can talk about others at another time if we like.) 2b. Second Conversation: Focusing on the event the group has picked to explore: Objective Level: What is some of the background data we know about this event (name it)? What is the source of that background data? Reflective Level: What part of this is the most confusing or obscure? What part of this is the most fascinating to you? What part is the most frightening? Where have you experienced something like this in the past, or observed it happening? Interpretive Level: What might have been some of the root issues that made this event happen? What are similar events that have happened recently? What are some of the trends that this event might be pointing to? What are the possible impacts of this event – either positive or negative, or both? Let’s capture this in notes. We can add plus (for positive) or minus (for negative) or both for our reactions to any impact. Decisional Level: What can we do at the local level to influence the impact of this event and those similar to it, to mitigate potential negative impacts and strengthen potential positive impacts? What practical recommendations do we want to make to decision-makers in our community, country, or world? Closing: I have found it helpful to have this conversation and find out your concerns. I have learned a lot from everyone, and I hope you have, too. Would you like to come another time to explore another topic? Who would like another cup of tea or coffee? 3. Optional: Feel free to have a quick evaluation of the conversation itself with the group if appropriate: O. What are some words or phrases that caught your attention during our conversation? R. What was the most engaging part of the conversation? At what part did you find yourself uneasy, or uncomfortable? I. What is something new that you are considering now? (“I never thought about it like that!”) What is something that confirms something you were already thinking about? D. If we were going to have another similar conversation, what changes would you make? (Take notes on the recommended changes.) Jo Nelson jo.r.nelson(a)gmail.com

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A Path Forward Conversation on the Ides of March
by Don Bushman 15 Mar '25

15 Mar '25

A Path Forward Conversation Saturday 15 March 4 pm Eastern 1 pm Pacific This Saturday Sunny Walker will be facilitating a conversation addressing the question "What role do shared narratives and cultural continuity play in engagement?" as it becomes clearer that collapse i.e. withdrawal, does not answer the call to engage in doing the necessary deed of addressing the innocent suffering in our moment. Please join us in the zoom room found at the zoom is of 630 013 695 and the password is 352922. Don Bushman 828-292-9696

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Fw: From Canadian citizen
by Ellie Stock 15 Mar '25

15 Mar '25

Following up on Ken Fisher's email re Canada... Ellieelliestock(a)aol.com Brian Joseph March 12 at 10:36 AM · This was deleted from Facebook after being downloaded. Mugsy Margarit was the original author.**Updated to reflect threats made by Trump the morning of March 11th.**One thing I've learned over the past few weeks, and it's been a bit of a sobering lesson, is that a lot of Americans I know don't actually know what's going on between the US and Canada right now, and just how seriously Canadians are taking this. So, against my better judgement, here's a timeline to explain why we're here, and why we're angry.Nov 30th, 2018 - The United States, Canada and Mexico finalize a trade agreement. Trump personally negotiates the terms and signs the document, celebrating it as 'the greatest trade agreement in history". (This is important.)Nov 29th, 2024 - In a face to face meeting, Trump threatens the Canadian Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, that he will be imposing 25% tariffs and that if Canada wants to avoid that, it should join the US as a state.Nov 30th, 2024 - Trump publicly calls our Prime Minister 'Governor Trudeau' and instructs his staff to only address him as Governor going forward. He again suggests Canada should join the USA.Dec 3rd, 2024 - Trump remarks that he would split Canada into two states once annexed.Dec 10th, 2024 - Trump posts that the majority of Canadians support annexation, despite public polling that only 13% of Canadians would consider the idea. Dec 18th, 2024 - Trump again falsely states that the majority of Canadians support annexation and that one of his lapdogs, Wayne Gretzky, should have a leadership role in that new scenario. Jan 7th, 2025 - At a press conference, Trump says that he would use economic force to destroy the Canadian economy to annex it. Jan 14, 2025 - Trump again claims that most Canadians want to be American, despite new polls showing only 10% of us are open to the idea. Jan 20th, 2025 - During his inaugural address, Trump says that the U.S. will 'expand its territory' during his second term.Jan 23rd, 2025 - At the World Economic Forum, Trump says that Canada can avoid tariffs and economic collapse if it joins the US. He says this in front of representatives from most countries in the world.Jan 24th, 2025 - Trump states publicly that Canada 'will' become a stateJan 31st, 2025 - Trump announces a 25% tariff on all Canadian imports to begin the next day.Feb 2nd, 2025 - Trump refers to Canada as its 'Cherished 51st state' and that it should join the US to avoid tariffs. Feb 3rd, 2025 - A one month delay is agreed upon. Trump, in a conversation with Trudeau states that he doesn't think existing border treaties with Canada are valid, and need to be revised. Feb 7th, 2025 - In a closed door meeting with his cabinet, Prime Minister Trudeau is recorded, without his knowledge, telling everyone that he believes very strongly that Trump is serious and that he stated his reason for annexation as Canadian resources. Feb 9th, 2025 - In a Super Bowl pre-game interview, Trump says that he's serious about his threats, calling it a 'viable consideration for expanding US territory'Feb 10th, 2025 - Trump announces an additional 25% tariffs on steel and aluminum imports from Canada to come into effect March 12th.Feb 24th, 2025 - Trump publicly remarks that whoever signed the USMCA agreement is an idiot. He was the one that signed it. Feb 27th, 2025 - Reports of American spy planes and reconnaissance aircraft flying over southern Alberta and Saskatchewan.March 4th, 5th, and 6th 2025 - Tariffs come into effect. Canada retaliates with it's own tariffs. Tariffs are again postponed until April 1st after a huge market backlash. March 4th, 2025 - In an address to a joint session of congress, Trump states that the US will own Greenland 'one way or the other'. March 5th, 2025 - US Secretary of Commerce Howard Lutnick told Canadian finance minister Dominic LeBlanc that Trump "had come to realize that the relationship between the United States and Canada was governed by a slew of agreements and treaties that were easy to abandon."March 7th, 2025 - Unconfirmed Memorandum and maps leaked on twitter reveal Trump is allegedly planning to annex the entirety of the great lakes and Southern Ontario, home to 13,491,332 Canadians. This amounts to 35.25% of Canada's total population and includes its largest city, Toronto. This region accounts for 38% of the Canadian economy, and its loss would make Canada's independence functionally impossible. March 8th, 2025 - Canada's foreign minister warns European allies that their government considers Canada to be under existential threat. March 9th, 2025 - Mark Carney, the new Canadian Prime Minister, in his acceptance speech, states that Trump is seeking to destroy Canada, and its way of life. March 11, 2025 - President Trump threatens to “permanently shut down the automobile manufacturing business in Canada” if Canada does not drop a 250% to 390% tariff on U.S. dairy products, which he doesn’t state only kicks in after a certain quantity of tariff-free U.S. dairy enters Canada, a quantity that was originally negotiated and agreed to by Trump during the USMCA in 2018. In Trump's own words, "The only thing that makes sense is for Canada to become our cherished Fifty First State. This would make all Tariffs, and everything else, totally disappear. Canadians’ taxes will be very substantially reduced, they will be more secure, militarily and otherwise, than ever before, there would no longer be a Northern Border problem, and the greatest and most powerful nation in the World will be bigger, better and stronger than ever — And Canada will be a big part of that. The artificial line of separation drawn many years ago will finally disappear, and we will have the safest and most beautiful Nation anywhere in the World — And your brilliant anthem, “O Canada,” will continue to play, but now representing a GREAT and POWERFUL STATE within the greatest Nation that the World has ever seen!"To my American friends, I know most of you are amazing and generous people. You didn't ask for this, and I understand that. I hold no ill will towards you, whatsoever. But I must stress, with as much seriousness as I can, the amount of damage this has done. We have viewed you as our closest friend and ally for a century. We thought of you as brothers and sisters. We answered the call, again and again, for any support you needed from us. Most of Canadians visit the USA so much that we've seen more of the US than we have the rest of Canada. American products have been taken off our shelves. Canadians are cancelling travel plans to the US. Photo after photo has been shared on social media of empty flights from Canada to the USA. This isn't a joke to us. We're not overreacting. We don't think he's just saying this shit to cause chaos or negotiate a deal. We wholeheartedly believe that our closest ally and friend is about to bring violence across our border, economically destroy us, and eliminate our way of life. The main driver for Canada's creation in 1867 was SPECIFICALLY to not be part of America, and to end America's very public threats and plans to annex our territory. We're angry. We're really, really fucking angry. Open your eyes to what's happening because we're tired of trying to make you understand why and asking you why it seems like none of you care. **I still hope that there is time to repair this. I still believe that this is the result of one man's plan to burn it all down. But time is running out, and fast.**Note** The hundreds of positive comments and messages I've received from Americans today have restored my faith in you, and humanity. You do care, and I was wrong in assuming you didn't.

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What if? ... Some thoughts on what we could do in the current political climate
by Jo Nelson 07 Mar '25

07 Mar '25

Context: Selected quotes taken from a post by Rosemary Cairns of an article in The Atlantic. "What Would a Liberal Tea Party Look Like? Democrats might have a chance to replicate the energy of the 2009 grassroots movement—if they actually want to." “Republicans aren’t the only ones taking flak. Democratic voters’ frustration with their party’s leaders, who are widely seen as either flat-footed or acquiescent, is growing. ... To recover their mojo, Democrats need some sort of organizing principle, real or purported. ... One challenge of creating a liberal version of the Tea Party is that what liberals want right now is so basic. The opposite of what Trump has done in his first month in office is good governance—careful, measured administration. But that doesn’t make a good bumper sticker, and it doesn’t inspire crowds. ... Representative Jake Auchincloss, a Massachusetts Democrat, has warned against Democrats trying to offer voters a “Diet Coke” version of Trumpian populism. “Voters who ordered a Coca-Cola don’t want a Diet Coke,” he told the New York Times columnist Ezra Klein recently. “There are two different parties. We have to start by understanding who our voters are not and then understanding who our voters could be—and go and try to win them over. ... Ultimately, Democrats will return to viability only if they’re able to learn from and absorb grassroots energy. ... Democrats could certainly use an infusion of fresh ideas—and new leadership." My response: Maybe a shift is needed to what the Iowa caucuses looked like when I was a child in the 1950’s — not about candidates for President, but grassroots meetings to create planks for the party platform. The ideas from the precinct caucuses were taken to a county convention, which then took the consensus to the state convention, and the consensus from the state was taken to the national convention to create the national party platform. (I remember one of these precinct caucuses happening in our family front room when I was 10. I was serving hot coffee to the participants and spilled it on me, which literally burned the meeting into my memory.) This is what my father loved about politics – the way that ordinary people coming together and sharing their ideas created the foundation for grounded choices and decision-making all the way up to the national level. Facilitators know how to design these from the grassroots up. And ICA did community town meetings across the US in 1976. I personally have facilitated consultations for governments that started at the local level and brought those ideas together at a higher level, looking for the common patterns that included all the perspectives. What if we locally took action to bring our neighbours together to discuss what is important to them, and then shared these concerns with others doing the same thing? Jo Nelson jo.r.nelson(a)gmail.com

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Re: [Dialogue] [Oe List ...] Please join us for the second meeting on "A PATH FORWARD" this afternoon at 3:00 pm central time. See you there.
by Karen Snyder 01 Mar '25

01 Mar '25

3:00 central time Saturday, March 1 > On Mar 1, 2025, at 11:33 AM, Ellie Stock via OE <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: > > WHEN?? > > Ellie Stock > elliestock(a)aol.com > > On Saturday, March 1, 2025 at 12:30:01 PM EST, Bill Parker via OE <oe(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: > > > Join Zoom Meeting > https://us02web.zoom.us/j/630013695?pwd=VEh6U21rZTk1YWZ2M3ZIUkF2eVcvQT09 > > Meeting ID: 630 013 695 > Passcode: 352922 > > --- > > One tap mobile > +16694449171,,630013695#,,,,*352922# US > +16699006833,,630013695#,,,,*352922# US (San Jose) > > --- > > Dial by your location > • +1 669 444 9171 US > • +1 669 900 6833 US (San Jose) > • +1 719 359 4580 US > • +1 253 205 0468 US > • +1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma) > • +1 346 248 7799 US (Houston) > • +1 646 931 3860 US > • +1 689 278 1000 US > • +1 929 205 6099 US (New York) > • +1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC) > • +1 305 224 1968 US > • +1 309 205 3325 US > • +1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago) > • +1 360 209 5623 US > • +1 386 347 5053 US > • +1 507 473 4847 US > • +1 564 217 2000 US > > Meeting ID: 630 013 695 > Passcode: 352922 > > Find your local number: https://us02web.zoom.us/u/kdy522AjRM > > > > _______________________________________________ > OE mailing list > OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net > _______________________________________________ > OE mailing list > OE(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

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