Prescient Thoughts from John Epps in 2004
Hi, all, I have been cleaning up many files from ICA Associates as a prelude to scanning important insights to scan and getting rid of all the paper files. I found this printed post that John Epps sent in 2004 and I think it is really prescient about our times in 2025. Much of what he says here about the “00’s” is even more stronger and evident now. Certainly it seems blatantly obvious to me now. I think this is worth reading and may catalyze our creative thinking. I also found a draft paper of Wayne’s thoughts that I think were catalyzed by John’s post. Two versions of it were next to John’s post in the file folder. I could also send it later if there is interest. Subject: [DIALOGUE] some thoughts on the spirit mood and questions Date:Thursday, March 11, 2004 9: 29 PM Colleagues: Here are some thoughts on what may be going on: The Spirit of the 00s We once analyzed the spirit mood of the times through these categories: An External Situation creates and Internal Crisis which raises an Existential Question from which we try to Escape. For me in the 80s the External Situation was the collapse of boundaries which created the Internal Crisis of inescapable diversity which raised the Existential Question of Where do I stand? We escaped through mindless relativism. It seems to me the 90s were a time in which the External Situation featured an emphasis on the intangibles, which raised the Internal Crisis of meaning which raised the Existential Question of "What is my worth? We escaped through spiritualism. Now we're into the 00s. The External Situation is a collapse of stabilizing structures (economic, political and cultural - perhaps 9-11 is a symbol of a much wider collapse). The economic structures collapsed when the dot-com bubble burst, the recession hit, jobs were lost, and the Enron/Dot-Com scandal occurred. That has even hit Martha Stewart. Economic structures clearly showed their vulnerability. The political collapse came with the elections of 2000 and was confirmed with the pull-out from global treaties, and the unilateral invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Political structures, including the UN, just don't seem to work very well. And the cultural - perhaps the RCC disclosure of pedophilia in the priesthood can symbolize that, but you can also find collapse in even the Superbowl's halftime show! And baseball, the national sport, is being portrayed as fraught with drug-enhanced players. Cultural structures, even the "pop" ones, just don't seem to hold values any more. What's happening is not that the structures collapse literally, but rather that their trustworthiness has been radically called into question. They're still around, but not providing us any stability or security. Our Internal Crisis in all this is security. All the structures that provided a measure of stability and predictability are coming un-glued. We don't have anything reliable to count on as a shield against chaos. So we hawk security, as though a new cabinet post or new airport inspections could protect us from - what? And this raises the Existential Question of "What can I trust?" We escape that question through belligerence. I'm quite amazed at the level of anger that has come into the political scene in the USA. But you see it in other realms as well - the hatred thinly disguised as religious fundamentalism and the malevolence of virus-creators and spam mongers. This doesn't even mention the explicitly belligerent views of the "hawks" in the international scene who are not simply limited to the present administration. While these illustrations are heavily Western, I believe you can find the same dynamics operating elsewhere. Take the Palestinians, for example. Obviously their economy has collapsed. Their political structure, as soon as it's set up, is taken apart again, either because of internal struggles or by the Israelis. Their culture seems devoid of significating power. So with the crisis of security and no answer to "What can I trust?" there is a turn to suicide bombings. Which, of course, work only to exaggerate the conditions that caused them in the first place. I'd be willing to content that terrorism is a manifestation of this spirit mood in its escape mode. You can probably find these dynamics at work in cultures throughout the world. What would it mean to trust that which takes out of being all those structures that provide some measure of security against the lurking chaos in which we live? That's the question of God. Your additions, corrections, suggestions and recommendations would be most welcome as we try to keep tabs on what is going on in the world these days. Take care, Jo Jo Nelson jo.r.nelson@gmail.com
Thanks for sending John's post--yes, still very relevant. And yes, please send Nelson's responses. Ellie elliestock@aol.com On Saturday, March 15, 2025 at 02:30:42 PM EDT, Jo Nelson via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Hi, all, I have been cleaning up many files from ICA Associates as a prelude to scanning important insights to scan and getting rid of all the paper files. I found this printed post that John Epps sent in 2004 and I think it is really prescient about our times in 2025. Much of what he says here about the “00’s” is even more stronger and evident now. Certainly it seems blatantly obvious to me now. I think this is worth reading and may catalyze our creative thinking. I also found a draft paper of Wayne’s thoughts that I think were catalyzed by John’s post. Two versions of it were next to John’s post in the file folder. I could also send it later if there is interest. Subject: [DIALOGUE] some thoughts on the spirit mood and questions Date:Thursday, March 11, 2004 9: 29 PM Colleagues: Here are some thoughts on what may be going on: The Spirit of the 00s We once analyzed the spirit mood of the times through these categories: An External Situation creates and Internal Crisis which raises an Existential Question from which we try to Escape. For me in the 80s the External Situation was the collapse of boundaries which created the Internal Crisis of inescapable diversity which raised the Existential Question of Where do I stand? We escaped through mindless relativism. It seems to me the 90s were a time in which the External Situation featured an emphasis on the intangibles, which raised the Internal Crisis of meaning which raised the Existential Question of "What is my worth? We escaped through spiritualism. Now we're into the 00s. The External Situation is a collapse of stabilizing structures (economic, political and cultural - perhaps 9-11 is a symbol of a much wider collapse). The economic structures collapsed when the dot-com bubble burst, the recession hit, jobs were lost, and the Enron/Dot-Com scandal occurred. That has even hit Martha Stewart. Economic structures clearly showed their vulnerability. The political collapse came with the elections of 2000 and was confirmed with the pull-out from global treaties, and the unilateral invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Political structures, including the UN, just don't seem to work very well. And the cultural - perhaps the RCC disclosure of pedophilia in the priesthood can symbolize that, but you can also find collapse in even the Superbowl's halftime show! And baseball, the national sport, is being portrayed as fraught with drug-enhanced players. Cultural structures, even the "pop" ones, just don't seem to hold values any more. What's happening is not that the structures collapse literally, but rather that their trustworthiness has been radically called into question. They're still around, but not providing us any stability or security. Our Internal Crisis in all this is security. All the structures that provided a measure of stability and predictability are coming un-glued. We don't have anything reliable to count on as a shield against chaos. So we hawk security, as though a new cabinet post or new airport inspections could protect us from - what? And this raises the Existential Question of "What can I trust?" We escape that question through belligerence. I'm quite amazed at the level of anger that has come into the political scene in the USA. But you see it in other realms as well - the hatred thinly disguised as religious fundamentalism and the malevolence of virus-creators and spam mongers. This doesn't even mention the explicitly belligerent views of the "hawks" in the international scene who are not simply limited to the present administration. While these illustrations are heavily Western, I believe you can find the same dynamics operating elsewhere. Take the Palestinians, for example. Obviously their economy has collapsed. Their political structure, as soon as it's set up, is taken apart again, either because of internal struggles or by the Israelis. Their culture seems devoid of significating power. So with the crisis of security and no answer to "What can I trust?" there is a turn to suicide bombings. Which, of course, work only to exaggerate the conditions that caused them in the first place. I'd be willing to content that terrorism is a manifestation of this spirit mood in its escape mode. You can probably find these dynamics at work in cultures throughout the world. What would it mean to trust that which takes out of being all those structures that provide some measure of security against the lurking chaos in which we live? That's the question of God. Your additions, corrections, suggestions and recommendations would be most welcome as we try to keep tabs on what is going on in the world these days. Take care, Jo Jo Nelsonjo.r.nelson@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Thanks Jo. Yes very relevant. What can we trust now???? Could it be that mysterious "Power that posits us"?????
On Mar 15, 2025, at 2:23 PM, Jo Nelson via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Hi, all, I have been cleaning up many files from ICA Associates as a prelude to scanning important insights to scan and getting rid of all the paper files. I found this printed post that John Epps sent in 2004 and I think it is really prescient about our times in 2025. Much of what he says here about the “00’s” is even more stronger and evident now. Certainly it seems blatantly obvious to me now. I think this is worth reading and may catalyze our creative thinking. I also found a draft paper of Wayne’s thoughts that I think were catalyzed by John’s post. Two versions of it were next to John’s post in the file folder. I could also send it later if there is interest.
Subject: [DIALOGUE] some thoughts on the spirit mood and questions Date:Thursday, March 11, 2004 9: 29 PM
Colleagues: Here are some thoughts on what may be going on: The Spirit of the 00s We once analyzed the spirit mood of the times through these categories: An External Situation creates and Internal Crisis which raises an Existential Question from which we try to Escape. For me in the 80s the External Situation was the collapse of boundaries which created the Internal Crisis of inescapable diversity which raised the Existential Question of Where do I stand? We escaped through mindless relativism. It seems to me the 90s were a time in which the External Situation featured an emphasis on the intangibles, which raised the Internal Crisis of meaning which raised the Existential Question of "What is my worth? We escaped through spiritualism. Now we're into the 00s. The External Situation is a collapse of stabilizing structures (economic, political and cultural - perhaps 9-11 is a symbol of a much wider collapse). The economic structures collapsed when the dot-com bubble burst, the recession hit, jobs were lost, and the Enron/Dot-Com scandal occurred. That has even hit Martha Stewart. Economic structures clearly showed their vulnerability. The political collapse came with the elections of 2000 and was confirmed with the pull-out from global treaties, and the unilateral invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Political structures, including the UN, just don't seem to work very well. And the cultural - perhaps the RCC disclosure of pedophilia in the priesthood can symbolize that, but you can also find collapse in even the Superbowl's halftime show! And baseball, the national sport, is being portrayed as fraught with drug-enhanced players. Cultural structures, even the "pop" ones, just don't seem to hold values any more. What's happening is not that the structures collapse literally, but rather that their trustworthiness has been radically called into question. They're still around, but not providing us any stability or security. Our Internal Crisis in all this is security. All the structures that provided a measure of stability and predictability are coming un-glued. We don't have anything reliable to count on as a shield against chaos. So we hawk security, as though a new cabinet post or new airport inspections could protect us from - what? And this raises the Existential Question of "What can I trust?" We escape that question through belligerence. I'm quite amazed at the level of anger that has come into the political scene in the USA. But you see it
in other realms as well - the hatred thinly disguised as religious fundamentalism and the malevolence of virus-creators and spam mongers. This doesn't even mention the explicitly belligerent views of the "hawks" in the international scene who are not simply limited to the present administration. While these illustrations are heavily Western, I believe you can find the same dynamics operating elsewhere. Take the Palestinians, for example. Obviously their economy has collapsed. Their political structure, as soon as it's set up, is taken apart again, either because of internal struggles or by the Israelis. Their culture seems devoid of significating power. So with the crisis of security and no answer to "What can I trust?" there is a turn to suicide bombings. Which, of course, work only to exaggerate the conditions that caused them in the first place. I'd be willing to content that terrorism is a manifestation of this spirit mood in its escape mode. You can probably find these dynamics at work in cultures throughout the world. What would it mean to trust that which takes out of being all those structures that provide some measure of security against the lurking chaos in which we live? That's the question of God. Your additions, corrections, suggestions and recommendations would be most welcome as we try to keep tabs on what is going on in the world these days.
Take care, Jo
Jo Nelson jo.r.nelson@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
I would love to see Wayne's reflections. (And you are still amazing and going and going and going). Did that beach walk with Jeanette give you focus? Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking
On Mar 15, 2025, at 8:14 PM, Jo Nelson via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Hi, all, I have been cleaning up many files from ICA Associates as a prelude to scanning important insights to scan and getting rid of all the paper files. I found this printed post that John Epps sent in 2004 and I think it is really prescient about our times in 2025. Much of what he says here about the “00’s” is even more stronger and evident now. Certainly it seems blatantly obvious to me now. I think this is worth reading and may catalyze our creative thinking. I also found a draft paper of Wayne’s thoughts that I think were catalyzed by John’s post. Two versions of it were next to John’s post in the file folder. I could also send it later if there is interest.
Subject: [DIALOGUE] some thoughts on the spirit mood and questions Date:Thursday, March 11, 2004 9: 29 PM
Colleagues: Here are some thoughts on what may be going on: The Spirit of the 00s We once analyzed the spirit mood of the times through these categories: An External Situation creates and Internal Crisis which raises an Existential Question from which we try to Escape. For me in the 80s the External Situation was the collapse of boundaries which created the Internal Crisis of inescapable diversity which raised the Existential Question of Where do I stand? We escaped through mindless relativism. It seems to me the 90s were a time in which the External Situation featured an emphasis on the intangibles, which raised the Internal Crisis of meaning which raised the Existential Question of "What is my worth? We escaped through spiritualism. Now we're into the 00s. The External Situation is a collapse of stabilizing structures (economic, political and cultural - perhaps 9-11 is a symbol of a much wider collapse). The economic structures collapsed when the dot-com bubble burst, the recession hit, jobs were lost, and the Enron/Dot-Com scandal occurred. That has even hit Martha Stewart. Economic structures clearly showed their vulnerability. The political collapse came with the elections of 2000 and was confirmed with the pull-out from global treaties, and the unilateral invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Political structures, including the UN, just don't seem to work very well. And the cultural - perhaps the RCC disclosure of pedophilia in the priesthood can symbolize that, but you can also find collapse in even the Superbowl's halftime show! And baseball, the national sport, is being portrayed as fraught with drug-enhanced players. Cultural structures, even the "pop" ones, just don't seem to hold values any more. What's happening is not that the structures collapse literally, but rather that their trustworthiness has been radically called into question. They're still around, but not providing us any stability or security. Our Internal Crisis in all this is security. All the structures that provided a measure of stability and predictability are coming un-glued. We don't have anything reliable to count on as a shield against chaos. So we hawk security, as though a new cabinet post or new airport inspections could protect us from - what? And this raises the Existential Question of "What can I trust?" We escape that question through belligerence. I'm quite amazed at the level of anger that has come into the political scene in the USA. But you see it
in other realms as well - the hatred thinly disguised as religious fundamentalism and the malevolence of virus-creators and spam mongers. This doesn't even mention the explicitly belligerent views of the "hawks" in the international scene who are not simply limited to the present administration. While these illustrations are heavily Western, I believe you can find the same dynamics operating elsewhere. Take the Palestinians, for example. Obviously their economy has collapsed. Their political structure, as soon as it's set up, is taken apart again, either because of internal struggles or by the Israelis. Their culture seems devoid of significating power. So with the crisis of security and no answer to "What can I trust?" there is a turn to suicide bombings. Which, of course, work only to exaggerate the conditions that caused them in the first place. I'd be willing to content that terrorism is a manifestation of this spirit mood in its escape mode. You can probably find these dynamics at work in cultures throughout the world. What would it mean to trust that which takes out of being all those structures that provide some measure of security against the lurking chaos in which we live? That's the question of God. Your additions, corrections, suggestions and recommendations would be most welcome as we try to keep tabs on what is going on in the world these days.
Take care, Jo
Jo Nelson jo.r.nelson@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Thanks, Jo, for posting this "Trends of the Times" article by John. While I'm not a member of this Dialogue listserve, I check into John's account from time to time. Thinking through the trends of each decade was a regular practice of John's. In fact the last public presentation he did was at the January 2019 USA ToP annual gathering in California where he gave a brief reflection on the trends as part of a reflection on the evolution of the ToP methods. Affectionately, Ann On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 12:24 PM Jo Nelson via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Hi, all,
I have been cleaning up many files from ICA Associates as a prelude to scanning important insights to scan and getting rid of all the paper files. I found this printed post that John Epps sent in 2004 and I think it is really prescient about our times in 2025. Much of what he says here about the “00’s” is even more stronger and evident now. Certainly it seems blatantly obvious to me now.
I think this is worth reading and may catalyze our creative thinking.
I also found a draft paper of Wayne’s thoughts that I think were catalyzed by John’s post. Two versions of it were next to John’s post in the file folder. I could also send it later if there is interest.
*Subject: [DIALOGUE] some thoughts on the spirit mood and questions *
*Date:*Thursday, March 11, 2004 9: 29 PM
Colleagues:
Here are some thoughts on what may be going on:
The Spirit of the 00s
We once analyzed the spirit mood of the times through these categories: An External Situation creates and Internal Crisis which raises an Existential Question from which we try to Escape.
For me in the 80s the External Situation was the collapse of boundaries which created the Internal Crisis of inescapable diversity which raised the Existential Question of Where do I stand? We escaped through mindless relativism.
It seems to me the 90s were a time in which the External Situation featured an emphasis on the intangibles, which raised the Internal Crisis of meaning which raised the Existential Question of "What is my worth? We escaped through spiritualism.
Now we're into the 00s. The External Situation is a collapse of stabilizing structures (economic, political and cultural - perhaps 9-11 is a symbol of
a much wider collapse). The economic structures collapsed when the dot-com bubble burst, the recession hit, jobs were lost, and the Enron/Dot-Com scandal occurred. That has even hit Martha Stewart. Economic structures clearly showed their vulnerability. The political collapse came with the elections of 2000 and was confirmed with the pull-out from global treaties, and the unilateral invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Political structures, including the UN, just don't seem to work very well. And the cultural - perhaps the RCC disclosure of pedophilia in the priesthood can symbolize that, but you can also find collapse in even the Superbowl's halftime show!
And baseball, the national sport, is being portrayed as fraught with
drug-enhanced players. Cultural structures, even the "pop" ones, just don't seem to hold values any more. What's happening is not that the structures collapse literally, but rather that their trustworthiness has been
radically called into question. They're still around, but not providing us any stability or security.
Our Internal Crisis in all this is security. All the structures that
provided a measure of stability and predictability are coming un-glued. We don't have anything reliable to count on as a shield against chaos. So we hawk security, as though a new cabinet post or new airport inspections could protect us from - what?
And this raises the Existential Question of "What can I trust?"
We escape that question through belligerence. I'm quite amazed at the level of anger that has come into the political scene in the USA. But you see it
in other realms as well - the hatred thinly disguised as religious fundamentalism and the malevolence of virus-creators and spam mongers. This doesn't even mention the explicitly belligerent views of the "hawks" in the international scene who are not simply limited to the present administration.
While these illustrations are heavily Western, I believe you can find the same dynamics operating elsewhere. Take the Palestinians, for example. Obviously their economy has collapsed. Their political structure, as soon as it's set up, is taken apart again, either because of internal struggles
or by the Israelis. Their culture seems devoid of significating power. So with the crisis of security and no answer to "What can I trust?" there is a turn to suicide bombings. Which, of course, work only to exaggerate the conditions that caused them in the first place. I'd be willing to content that terrorism is a manifestation of this spirit mood in its escape mode.
You can probably find these dynamics at work in cultures throughout the world.
What would it mean to trust that which takes out of being all those structures that provide some measure of security against the lurking chaos in which we live? That's the question of God.
Your additions, corrections, suggestions and recommendations would be most welcome as we try to keep tabs on what is going on in the world these days.
Take care,
Jo
Jo Nelson jo.r.nelson@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
participants (6)
-
Ann Epps -
Ellie Stock -
James Wiegel -
Jean Watts -
Jo Nelson -
Wesson Gaige