October 2012 - Dialogue - lists.wedgeblade.net

Carol Pierce's death
by David M Dunn 07 Oct '12

07 Oct '12

Mary Laura asked that her note about Carol's death be sent again to ensure the most inclusive outreach: Carol Pierce passed away a little before noon [Thursday, September 20, 2012] of cardio-pulmonary complications. Aimee Hilliard and Mary Laura Jones were with Carol the entire morning. Carol enjoyed the Accelerate 77 event on Saturday and loved keeping in touch with many of you and keeping track of your lives and activities. There will be a Memorial Service at the ICA GreenRise Center building on a weekend in September or October. I will post the time and date as soon as the family decides the date. Carol will be deeply missed. She was a wise and courageous mentor to many of us. I will miss her wisdom, her humor, her gracious attitude and her demonstration of living a great life in the midst of physical adversity. Mary Laura -- Mary Laura Jones Grants Resource Development Consultant 1454 W. Fargo Avenue Chicago, IL 60626 cell: 773 636-2022 mljones2022(a)gmail.com via David Dunn

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Re: [Dialogue] Carol Pierce's death
by Del Morril 06 Oct '12

06 Oct '12

Please give our very best to everyone. We're so sorry we're unable to join you in this most important celebration of a wonderful woman. Del and Justin Morrill _____ From: dialogue-bounces(a)lists.wedgeblade.net [mailto:dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Mary Laura Jones Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 2:14 PM To: Colleague Dialogue; cpiercenet(a)netscape.net; JUNE42946(a)aol.com; jpathunt(a)hughes.net; Aimee Hilliard; Mary Moffett; Lauri Shaw; Mark Bushman; justin bushman; Mark Pierce; Pam Sall; Margaret Gergen; Beret Griffith Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Carol Pierce's death The Memorial Service for Carol Pierce will be held on October 20 at 2:00pm at the ICA GreenRise Building located at 4750 N. Sheridan Road. Charles Hahn will lead the service. Please plan to stay for refreshments and a facilitated conversation following the service. Mary Laura Jones For the Pierce and Hunt families -- Mary Laura Jones Grants Resource Development Consultant 1454 W. Fargo Avenue Chicago, IL 60626 cell: 773 636-2022 <tel:773%20636-2022> mljones2022(a)gmail.com via David Dunn _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net -- Mary Laura Jones Grants Resource Development Consultant 1454 W. Fargo Avenue Chicago, IL 60626 cell: 773 636-2022 mljones2022(a)gmail.com

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Fw: Leadership call with Robertson Work OCT 8
by Janet Sanders 06 Oct '12

06 Oct '12

Dear Colleagues, The Leadership Theme group for the ICAI conference will have its second exploration this Monday at 9am Eastern time. Below is the announcement. Please join if possible. If you would also like to be part of the virtual conference from Oct 29-Nov 2 please let me know. We look forward to hearing about any of your leadership reflections. The Syllabus that Rob uses and a second paper on leadership for Sustainable Human Development have been attached. Warmest greetings, Jan Leadership Theme Meeting Summary: Robertson Work will lead an exploration of the course "Innovative Leadership for Sustainable Human Development" which he designed and teaches at New York University Wagner Graduate School of Public Service in NYC. The leadership approach in the course is primarily a blend of UNDP's Sustainable Human Development paradigm, Ken Wilber's Integral Quadrants, Jean Houston's Social Artistry and ICA's Technology of Participation We will use the sound in the Adobe Connect meeting room. If you have not used the Adobe Connect sound before, please join the call one half hour before the time below so that we can help you set up your sound system. Please use a headset for this meeting. Computer speakers disrupt the sound for everyone else. Start Time: 10/08/2012 9:00 AM New York/Toronto Daylight time Duration: 01:00 URL: http://top.adobeconnect.com/ldrtheme2012/ Cut and paste this address into your browser if it does not take you there automatically.

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Carol Pierce's 70th pictures
by LAURELCG＠aol.com 05 Oct '12

05 Oct '12

Somehow I'd missed these until Paul's e-mail. Thanks so much, whoever sent them. So wonderful to see beloved faces I still recognized, some that were still familiar but I couldn't label with names, and some I didn't have a clue about. What a beautiful gathering for the beautiful being, Carol Pierce. In the Love that holds us all in being, Jann McGuire In a message dated 10/5/2012 12:26:31 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, PSchrijnen(a)aol.com writes: Dear Colleagues, These delightful photographs from 2006 matter now in a different way. I suspect it was Mary Laura who put that together on the occassion of Carol's 70th birthday. Thank you Mary Laura... best wishes, Paul

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Carol Pierce's death
by PSchrijnen＠aol.com 05 Oct '12

05 Oct '12

Dear Colleagues, These delightful photographs from 2006 matter now in a different way. I suspect it was Mary Laura who put that together on the occassion of Carol's 70th birthday. Thank you Mary Laura... best wishes, Paul In a message dated 02/10/2012 01:42:03 GMT Daylight Time, marykdsouza(a)gmail.com writes: Over the last week I have been reflecting on the lives of Margynell Knutson, Ellery Ellizondo and Carol Pierce. They represent the hundreds of other women in the order. . I first met Margynell at the ITI in Mumbai where she was on the faculty of the program in 1972. Carol Pierce met me at the airport in Hong Kong on my way to Chicago for the first time in 1972. Ellery was always available for consultation and support while I brought up our son in Chicago. Their lives and their decisions were important for my life. The choices and the solidity of their decisions made it possible for me to have the courage to move out from the ordinary. The extra ordinary opened up for me. Metaphorically, one could say, I have learned to walk on water. Thank you one and all. Mary Thank you one and all. On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Dharmalingam Vinasithamby <_dvinasithamby(a)yahoo.com_ (mailto:dvinasithamby@yahoo.com) > wrote: I too was hoping to see and talk with Carol and regret that I did not manage to get to Chicago in time. Gracious, cool headed and a master of indirection - that was Carol. It has been moving to read all these emails about her. We will all miss her. Dharma --- On Sun, 9/23/12, DOUGLAS DRUCKENMILLER <_dpat23(a)msn.com_ (mailto:dpat23@msn.com) > wrote: From: DOUGLAS DRUCKENMILLER <_dpat23(a)msn.com_ (mailto:dpat23@msn.com) > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Carol Pierce's death To: "_dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net_ (mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net) " <_dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net_ (mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net) >, _dialogue(a)wedgeblade.net_ (mailto:dialogue@wedgeblade.net) Cc: _carol.walters(a)yahoo.com_ (mailto:carol.walters@yahoo.com) Date: Sunday, September 23, 2012, 4:44 AM This is sad and a bit shocking to me. I saw her at Accelerate 77 and she was her usual funny self. So glad to have known her. Pat and Doug ____________________________________ From: _m.george.walters(a)verizon.net_ (mailto:m.george.walters@verizon.net) To: _dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net_ (mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net) ; _dialogue(a)wedgeblade.net_ (mailto:dialogue@wedgeblade.net) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 11:45:46 -0400 CC: _Carol.walters(a)yahoo.com_ (mailto:Carol.walters@yahoo.com) Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Carol Pierce's death Colleagues and Family; Carol’s decades of constant care for all of us both structural and individual is a legacy that is embedded in our lives, even when memory may forget the details. What a blessing she continues to be as we live from that gift she is to us. Grace and Peace George and Carol From: _dialogue-bounces(a)lists.wedgeblade.net_ (mailto:dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net) [mailto:_dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net_ (mailto:dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net) ] On Behalf Of David M Dunn Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:39 PM To: Dialogue' Listserv Subject: [Dialogue] Carol Pierce's death Mary Laura asked that her note about Carol's death be sent again to ensure the most inclusive outreach: Carol Pierce passed away a little before noon [Thursday, September 20, 2012] of cardio-pulmonary complications. Aimee Hilliard and Mary Laura Jones were with Carol the entire morning. Carol enjoyed the Accelerate 77 event on Saturday and loved keeping in touch with many of you and keeping track of your lives and activities. There will be a Memorial Service at the ICA GreenRise Center building on a weekend in September or October. I will post the time and date as soon as the family decides the date. Carol will be deeply missed. She was a wise and courageous mentor to many of us. I will miss her wisdom, her humor, her gracious attitude and her demonstration of living a great life in the midst of physical adversity. Mary Laura -- Mary Laura Jones Grants Resource Development Consultant 1454 W. Fargo Avenue Chicago, IL 60626 cell: 773 636-2022 _mljones2022(a)gmail.com_ (http://us.mc1101.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mljones2022@gmail.com) via David Dunn _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list _Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net_ (mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net) _http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net_ (http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net) -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list _Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net_ (http://us.mc1101.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net) _http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net_ (http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net) _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list _Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net_ (mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net) _http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net_ (http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net) _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

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Re: [Dialogue] exemplary 3rd grade educating
by KarenBueno＠aol.com 05 Oct '12

05 Oct '12

Wow! These teachers really have the right stuff! Karen Bueno In a message dated 10/5/2012 6:56:01 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jpc2025(a)triad.rr.com writes: Granddaughter Lyndon's weekly report to parents from teachers of her 3rd grade class in Davidson, NC. _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

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exemplary 3rd grade educating
by John Cock 05 Oct '12

05 Oct '12

Granddaughter Lyndon's weekly report to parents from teachers of her 3rd grade class in Davidson, NC.

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10/04/12, Spong: "Think Different–Accept Uncertainty" Part XVIII: The Resurrection of Jesus
by Ellie Stock 04 Oct '12

04 Oct '12

HOMEPAGE MY PROFILE ESSAY ARCHIVE MESSAGE BOARDS CALENDAR "Think Different–Accept Uncertainty" Part XVIII: The Resurrection of Jesus The literal details are familiar: the third day, the empty tomb, the experience of seeing the risen Christ. These details stand at the heart of the Christian story, forming its essential climax if you will. It is celebrated annually in Easter services, normally with packed congregations. Its secular observances involve Easter parades, Easter egg hunts and the prolific Easter Bunny. It comes, at least in the northern hemisphere where Christianity was born, in the spring of the year when the doldrums of winter have been pushed aside by new shoots of green and new flowers to brighten the countryside. It captures and speaks to the deepest human anxiety, the experience of mortality and finitude. Death is a reality for every living thing, but only human beings are self-consciously aware that this destiny awaits us all. Only human beings anticipate death, plan for it, fear and dread it and seek to avoid it. Is it possible that the story of Jesus’ resurrection is an expression of human wish fulfillment? Or is there something about the story of the resurrection that is real, that is trustworthy and that is measurable inside the flow of history? The whole of Christianity seems to rest on the answer being “yes” to each of these questions. We start our examination of the resurrection of Jesus by examining the biblical texts that purport to tell us about it. The reality of resurrection is assumed in almost every verse of the New Testament, but the details that purport to describe the resurrection are consistently both confused and in many cases actually contradictory. There are five separate sources consisting of only six chapters in the entire New Testament that purport to tell us about what happened at the time of the first Easter. The first and earliest of these five sources is Paul and his account is found in I Corinthians 15. That epistle was written in the mid-fifties, or some twenty-five years after the crucifixion and about two decades before the first gospel, Mark, ever saw the light of day. Paul is, however, quite sparse in details. He gives us the first specific time reference. It happened, whatever “it” was, he says, “on the third day,” presumably following the crucifixion. When Paul talks about the resurrection of Jesus he always uses a passive verb form. Jesus did not rise in Paul’s writing, he “was raised,” presumably by God, and it was done, he says, “in accordance with the scriptures.” There being no New Testament in existence when Paul was writing, this reference was clearly to the Jewish Scriptures, which Paul, as a rabbi, knew quite well. To what particular biblical texts he was referring, however, he failed to say, leaving us only to speculate. The primary Old Testament reference, to which most scholars now believe he was alluding, seems to be II Isaiah (40-55), but there is nothing in that segment of the book of Isaiah that hints at what we now call resurrection. It does, however, talk about the indestructibility of the “servant” figure who gives his life away. Then Paul proceeds to give us a list of those to whom this raised Christ had appeared, i.e., those who have been enabled to see and thus to be called “witnesses.” To this list, however, he provides not a single narrative detail. The list includes three individuals: Peter, James and Paul and three groups of people: “the twelve,” “500 brethren at once” and “the apostles.” Note that “the twelve” and “the apostles” appear to be two different groups, which many find surprising. The “500 brethren at once” is a reference not corroborated by any other note found anywhere in the written Christian tradition. The most fascinating of these witnesses, however, is Paul himself. Most scholars, following the lead of the early 20th century church historian Adolf Harnack, date the conversion of Paul somewhere between one and six years following Jesus’ crucifixion. If whatever it was that Paul saw up to six years after the crucifixion, was, as he claims, identical with what others saw, it could hardly have been a resuscitated body that walked out of a tomb three days after being crucified. Literalists are thus confounded. Paul, the first figure in the New Testament to write about what came to be called “resurrection,” could not possibly have been referring to a physical body; yet whatever Paul’s experience was, he believed it was real and it was certainly life changing. So we have in this our earliest source in the New Testament the elements that constitute an ultimate mystery. Whatever the resurrection of Jesus was, it was real, but it was not physical. Paul gives us a hint as to what it was to which he was referring when he writes later in his letter to the Romans that “Christ being raised from the dead will never die again. Death no longer has dominion over him” (Rom. 6:9). If Paul was referring to a physically resuscitated body that returned to the life of the flesh, then presumably at some point this Jesus would have had to die again. That is the nature of all things that are living and physical. So, whatever it was that this epistle was trying to communicate, it is not about a body resuscitated and restored to the physical realm of human history. This Romans text goes on to say that “he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God.” The clear implication in these words is that Paul’s concept of the raising of Jesus was that he was raised into the life of God from which he “appeared to certain chosen witnesses,” among whom Paul included himself. It also means that whatever that appearance to Paul was, it would have had to have occurred somewhere between one and six years after Jesus’ death. Studying the biblical accounts of the resurrection is not quite as simple as literal-minded Christians want to make it. The interpretive task became even more complicated when the first gospel was written. The resurrected Jesus is never seen in Mark’s narrative. All Mark gives us in his Easter morning story is an announcement made to the women at the tomb in which it is stated: “He is not here, he has been raised.” This announcement was made by a messenger, Mark says, who is not yet regarded or pictured as an angel. So what do these words mean? Was Jesus raised back into the physical life of this world or was he raised into the life of God? That is a question that Mark does not answer. The messenger goes on to direct the women to go tell “Peter and the disciples” that the raised Christ will go before them into Galilee and there they will see him. If the disciples are still in Jerusalem when this announcement was first made, as this text suggests, we need to know that Galilee was a seven to ten day journey, so the promised “appearance” in Galilee of the raised Jesus would fall outside the three day time measure. So in this earliest gospel the promise of a future appearance is made, but in fact in this account the raised Christ appears to no one after the crucifixion. That is to many a startling reality, but it is also a biblical fact. When Matthew writes the second gospel a decade or so after Mark, he has Mark in front of him and he incorporates most of Mark directly into his account. He also changes, heightens and adds to Mark’s text from time to time and this happens in his account of the first Easter. First the messenger in Mark has become in Matthew a clearly identified, supernatural angel. Second the raised Christ actually does appear to the women in the garden in Matthew and in a form physical enough for them to “grasp his feet.” Matthew then adds a second appearance story designed to give content to the messenger’s promise in Mark that the disciples would see the raised Christ in Galilee. It occurred, said Matthew, on top of a mountain. The disciples presumably trudged up the mountain, but the raised Jesus came mysteriously out of the sky. Does this imply that he has come out of heaven or out of God? He is transformed and clothed in the garments of the Son of Man, who, in Jewish mythology, was to come at the end of the age. For the first time in the Bible, this resurrected figure is given words to speak. They constitute a charge: “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel,” followed by a promise: “For I am with you always, even to the end of the world.” The resurrection story is clearly growing as the years roll by. When Luke, the author of the third gospel, written about a decade after Matthew, pens his version of the story, the angelic messenger in Mark, who became an angel in Matthew, has now become two angels and the physicality of the raised Jesus has been enhanced to the place where we are told that he walks, talks, eats, offers his flesh to be felt and interprets scripture. Luke also says that all of the resurrection appearances occurred in the Jerusalem area, dropping all references to a return to Galilee. Then Luke introduces the story of Jesus’ ascension. Having made the resurrection into the physical resuscitation of a deceased body, he has to provide a way to get this physical body out of the world without dying again. The ascension was his answer. Finally, when the Fourth Gospel is written near the end of the first century (95-100), its author offers new and sometimes contradictory material. There are four apparently separate vignettes that the Fourth Gospel has woven together, sometimes rather awkwardly. The first one stars Mary Magdalene alone at the tomb and the focus of this story is that one cannot cling to the idea of Jesus as a physical body. The second vignette focuses on Peter and the “beloved disciple” coming to an empty tomb and we are told that the “beloved disciple” believes without ever seeing a physical body. The third focuses on the disciples in a secured upper room on the evening of the first day of the week and that is the time for this gospel when the disciples receive the Holy Spirit; that is, Easter is viewed in this final gospel as the Pentecost transformational experience for the disciples. The fourth episode stars Thomas and its message is “Blessed are those who do not see (a resuscitated body) and yet who still believe.” That is a brief summary of all the specific resurrection material in the New Testament. It remains now to weave this material together into a coherent form. That I will do in the next episode, which will conclude this series entitled, “Think Different–Accept Uncertainty.” ~John Shelby Spong Read the essay online here. Question & Answer Pastor Dan Sire, via the Internet, writes: Question: Your theology is intriguing but I have many questions. Two are: If Jesus Christ is not the incarnate divine one then who or what is he? If Jesus Christ is not the incarnate divine one then what is the significance of naming yourself a Christian? Answer: Dear Pastor Dan, Thank you for your questions. I fear, however, that the categories of theological understanding in which you frame your two questions are far too rigid and even dated for you to be able to hear the responses that I need to make to them. You are using the language of Greek dualism in which the creeds were hammered out in the fourth century when Christianity was in the process of being incorporated into a Greek thinking world. Incarnation is a Greek term not a biblical term. Fourth Century concepts have frozen Christianity into something neither Paul nor the gospel writers would ever have recognized. I spent over 300 pages trying to separate the Jesus experience from this creedal language in my book entitled Jesus for the Non-Religious: Discovering the Divine in the Heart of the Human. It is not an easy or simplistic task, but it means that in the way you frame your questions it is all but impossible for me to respond in a meaningful way. We Christians have made many claims for Jesus. There is general agreement even in the Bible that “God was in this Christ.” What that means and how God and Jesus came to be viewed as related to each other in a deep and even total way is not nearly as clear as the affirmation we make about him. If you go to the New Testament, you will discover that the earliest affirmation about Jesus that we have in that book is that in his humanity the presence of God has been experienced as real. “God was in Christ” was the way Paul described that experience. Since the only way first century people could understand God was in the common definition as a supernatural being who lived above the sky, the only way the debate was framed was about how this distant God could have gotten into the human Jesus. The debate is easy to follow. Paul, writing to the Romans about 58 CE, said that God lifted Jesus into the meaning of God at the Resurrection (Rom. 1:1-4). Mark, writing 12-14 years later, says that God entered the fully human Jesus at the time of his baptism. Matthew, writing somewhere between 82-85, and Luke, writing between 88-93, say that God entered Jesus at the moment of his conception. That was when the Virgin Birth stories entered the tradition. The Fourth Gospel, written between 95-100, agreed that Jesus was part of who God is, but argued that it had been so from the dawn of creation. Jesus was for him was the enfleshment of the word or logos of God that came out of God when God said: “Let there be light.” All of these explanations, conflicting as they are, are written into pages of the New Testament. It is not the explanation of how God became human that I regard as important, it is the reality of the human experience that the explanations seek to explain. In the mystical tradition, the union of the human with the divine is said to be the goal of life. Humanity is not destroyed by the presence of God, it is expanded. Divinity is not the opposite of humanity it is an expression of humanity’s fullness. Divinity does not take over our humanity or even Jesus’ humanity; it becomes the depth expression of who we are. Incarnation language is the language of the Greek world. It served the church well in the past, but it cannot be the language of the 21st century. Our task is to find a way to express the same truth that the concept of “incarnation” sought to convey, but in the language of our world. That is my goal in ministry and it is the reality of that goal that makes me a Christian. My best to you in your ministry. ~John Shelby Spong Announcements Any questions or concerns, please contact us at support(a)johnshelbyspong.com or 503-236-3545. Copyright © 2012 ProgressiveChristianity.org, All rights reserved. You are receiving this email because you have a membership at our website. Our mailing address is: ProgressiveChristianity.org 3530 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Unit 1 Portland, OR 97214 Add us to your address book

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Did you listen to JWM's Talk at the Global Archives?
by steve har 03 Oct '12

03 Oct '12

Not everyone has found the Global Archives Fall Sojourn web page: see fallsojourn.posterous.com There are several new posts there about the work of the Fall Sojourn. You can also find an audio clip of a Joe Mathews talk from 1964 and listen to it or down load it. if you -want tArchive email updates or -want to offer a question or comment please send an email to: fallsojourn(a)gmail.com and include your own name and email address. Steve

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Re: [Dialogue] Group Facilitation - Online
by Sunwalker 03 Oct '12

03 Oct '12

Wow! We'll have to make you a "sister" yet! From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network. -------- Original message -------- Subject: [Dialogue] Group Facilitation - Online From: Wayne Nelson <wnelson(a)ica-associates.ca> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> CC: Just a wee update. We are teaching our very first Group Facilitation course in a totally online environment. We're teaching the straight-up GFM course, but not trying to teach them to facilitate online at all. There are a total of 6 two hour sessions. 3 for the Focused Conversation method and 3 for the Consensus Workshop method. Monday - Wednesday and Friday. They have homework assignments between sessions including practicing the method in a real setting. We have people from across Canada as well as one in Barbados and one who is, for this week, located in Hawaii. We're using Blackboard Collaborate - a shared whiteboard - small group rooms - very good audio and a bunch of group work tools. We can share our own computer screen, go to a website, play videos. It uses PowerPoint for contextual material, instructions and pages for group work. For example, we upload the Focused Conversation worksheet and they can type directly on it. A small group works together to help someone design a conversation. The person can download it, refine it and use it. At least one of the participants will be using the conversation in his church group this evening. They seemed to grasp the basics of the method and they can see themselves using it in their life and workplaces. It's our first time and there are a few clumsy spots, but we are very excited about the possibilities. \\/ - - - - - - - - - - Wayne Nelson wnelson(a)ica-associates.ca O - 416-691-2316 M - 647-229-6910 _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

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