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Re: [Dialogue] re Grand Design and Ontology
by David Walters 27 May '12

27 May '12

I fell asleep after reading Wayne's latest discourse. Then I had a dream where Wayne had died and gone to hell. After he had been there a few months he summoned to Satan's office. I hear that you where some kind of fancy pant s facilitator. That's correct, Wayne replied. Well..... Satan mused and asked Can up help me with all these Americans that have been showing down here lately. What the problem with them? Wayne inquired. They all seem to be disaffected republicans, Satan said. That is certainly a major contradiction, Wayne said. Satan responded, What would you suggest. Wayne thought a bit and said, I could lead an O-R-I-D? Satan replied, What would your topic be? Wayne immediately answered, ICEWATER! Wayne. I don't know if this sufficiently grounds this thread for you ontologically or not, but this is the best I can do. -David Walters --- wnelson(a)ica-associates.ca wrote: From: Wayne Nelson <wnelson(a)ica-associates.ca> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re Grand Design and Ontology Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 12:42:52 -0400 OK, I'll say it. The emperor has no clothes on! (There are earthier and profane ways to convey this sentiment and I am pretty fluent in those linguistic forms should the necessity arise.) I have never said anything in this forum about knowing and the modalities of knowledge. My only brief interest in epistimology (my first and likely only use of that word in this forum are in this paragraph) came when I encountered groups who seem to process ideas and move to decision making in unique ways. I was kind of flummoxed; as many of us have been, in encountering the perplexing and intriguing variations in the ways humanness configures itself on the planet. I determined that the uniquenesses I encountered were more related to culturally based operating patterns of relationship in high context cultures and adaptations to the detrimental impact of colonialization than they were to actual ways of knowing things. The differences were, substantially, sociological and led to variations in practice, but not in foundational methodology. I never mentioned all that on this forum because there were no electronic forums at the time and I had never even touched a computer when all that happened. I haven't thought about epistimology in any depth for donkey's years. It is, in the context we're discussing, about beings - our "throwness" or our "showed-up-ness, but it is not about being. I am interested in the nature of being - being profoundly human. My dictionaries call that ontology. "Job # 1" is enabling human authenticity. So is job # 2, 3, 4 and all the rest of them. I have never seen the ways we have used our basic phenomonological approach as a matter of contrasting or materially different methodologies. I have never said that and I do not believe it to be true. If a conversation does not enable people to take an authentic relation to their given situation, it is neither a proper O-R-I-D conversation not a proper art form conversation. The only meaningful difference between an O-R-I-D conversation and an artform conversation is the name and only the name. We're using the term "Focused Conversation" these days. It's the same dude with different clothes on. You calling me George or Sue won't change who I am. We kind of confused ourselves in the 80's in our efforts to make this phenomonal phenomonological methodology more accessible and useful in a wider range of applications. Different people, different contexts, different cares and concerns, different histories led us to different terminology and differences in application. If the methodology is different, something different is happening that is not either aspect of that false dichotomy. The tragedy is not being aware of it. Those who were hoodwinked into thinking we created something substantially different or even intended to do so are living a very strangely disconnected world. The substance of the difference is in the group involved, their unique context and concerns and what will enable that specific group to make common sense, form a common will and assume an authentic relationship to their situation. Please stop putting your words in my mouth and twisting up the things I say It is deeply irritating to be disrespected in this way. This practice is edging closer to abuse than healthy provocation of genuine dialogue. Wayne just about one click away from asking to be removed from this community - - - - - - - - - - Wayne Nelson wnelson(a)ica-associates.ca O - 416-691-2316 M - 647-229-6910 On 2012-05-27, at 9:41 AM, steve har wrote: > Applause and admiration to really ANYONE who provokes thought or humor > around the notion of "Grand Design & Ontology. > > More please John Epps and David Scott! > > More pushy rejoinders please from Wayne Nelson and Facilitators and : > maybe with a provocative proposition like "There is no Ontology just > Epistemology; or no Art Form Conversation just ORID Procedures". > > More San Antonio style model building from Wiegel: > http://2012gatheringminds.pbworks.com/ > > More strange questions like the one from my Zen teacher Dosho Port's > blog this morning: “Although you understand that the nature of the > wind is permanent,” Mayu replied, “you do not understand the meaning > of its reaching everywhere.” > http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfoxzen/2012/05/what-is-zen-he-asked.html > > What about you? What's provocative for the future for you? > > -- > Steve Harrington > _______________________________________________ > Dialogue mailing list > Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net > _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

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Judith Update May 27th
by Jayandem2＠aol.com 27 May '12

27 May '12

Dear friends and colleagues: First off, let me thank you for all the wonderful emails and cards you have sent since hearing of Judith's fall and subsequent hospitalization. I can't stress more strongly how much they have meant to her and to me. to hear from so many folks from all eras of our life. I wish I could have a more encouraging note to send, but Judith is back in the hospital as of last Wednesday. She had been in Surrey Place Rehab Center since April 17th. they attempted to do as much occupational and physical therapy as possible, but she continued to have severe pains in the left leg that was broken just below the top of the femur. That really limited what they could accomplish, and she didn't make much progress. A bunch of other complications set in, particularly a urine infection, bad dehydration and undernourishment due to her total lack of appetite. Anyway, she was readmitted to the hospital for more medical care than was possible at the rehab facility. She is quite disabled, and certainly needs all the good vibes and prayers that can come her way. Meg and I are doing well, and we have wonderful caregivers that take good care of both of us, (even though we hire them to only take care of Meg.) As I have mentioned previously, our wonderful church community also cares so well for us. I will keep you updated. Grace, Peace, and Love, Mike

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re Grand Design and Ontology
by steve har 27 May '12

27 May '12

Applause and admiration to really ANYONE who provokes thought or humor around the notion of "Grand Design & Ontology. More please John Epps and David Scott! More pushy rejoinders please from Wayne Nelson and Facilitators and : maybe with a provocative proposition like "There is no Ontology just Epistemology; or no Art Form Conversation just ORID Procedures". More San Antonio style model building from Wiegel: http://2012gatheringminds.pbworks.com/ More strange questions like the one from my Zen teacher Dosho Port's blog this morning: “Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent,” Mayu replied, “you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere.” http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfoxzen/2012/05/what-is-zen-he-asked.html What about you? What's provocative for the future for you? -- Steve Harrington

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Summary Report: ICA 50th Anniversary Event: Awaken the Dreamer
by Ellie Stock 27 May '12

27 May '12

Dear Colleagues, Greetings from St. Louis. Below is our summary report of our ICA 50th Anniversary event "Awakening the Dreamer" symposium held Saturday, May 19 in Ferguson, MO. Relative to common features for these anniversary events, we did introduce the ICA and the 50th anniversary, created the art form strips, and feel that the symposium, from an ecological perspective, lays out the challenges of our times and some creative responses to them. As the report says, a smaller follow-up group will meet in two weeks to follow-up on how to enable the Ferguson community to make the transition from dependency on fossil fuels to renewable energy sources. This is an excellent symposium construct for raising consciousness about what we are doing to the earth and what we and others can do about it. Glad it could be included in the 50! Also below are the lyrics for the song "Let the Earth Breathe", written for the event and used for the closing. Attached is a draft of the music notation (if the attachment is allowed to go through--can't be put in the text of the email). Carleton and Ellie Stock SUMMARY OF50TH ANNIVERSARY EVENT IN ST. LOUIS, MO ON MAY 19, 2012 One of theevents marking the 50th anniversary of the Institute of CulturalAffairs took place on Saturday, May 19, 2012 in Ferguson, MO, a first-ringsuburb of the City of St. Louis. It wasan “Awakening the Dreamer, Changing the Dream” symposium, an experience ofinspiring exploration into the links between the three facets of a “new dream”for humanity and planet earth: environmental sustainability, social justice,and spiritual fulfillment. The idea ofthe symposium grew out of the Pachamama Alliance formed ten years ago amongindigenous peoples in Ecuador, Latin America and their concerns about what theindustrial nations were doing to their land and their way of life. It combines leading edge information, livepresentation, excellent video clips, and group interaction. The Ferguson symposium was held from 8:15 to12:15 p.m. in the parish hall of the St. Stephen’s Episcopal Church and washosted by Carleton and Ellie Stock, long-time members of the ICA, living in thecommunity the last 14 years. There were27 participants, two hosts, and two facilitators from the Rockhaven EcozoicCenter about an hour from the site. 22were female, 5 male, ranging in age from late 40’s to 80. Two thirds were from the greater Fergusonarea via residency, job or organization. Thirteen were newcomers and unlike the others had not attended any ofthe monthly environmental video nights leading up to the symposium. Highlightsof the event: · Goodattention, participation, sharing and spirit · Excellenttrained and experienced facilitators from the Pachamama Alliance network · Tearsof pain because of what we are doing to the earth, our mother and tears of joyand hope because of what is already being done by others and can be done by us. · Theweaving together of the personal, the spiritual, and social justice · Displaytable with books, videos, local organizations, and ICA video and newsletter · Peoplewere introduced to the world-wide Transition Community movement · Focusedparticipation in the ICA art form project of writing promises, hopes and visionfor the next 50 years on pieces of fabric to be incorporated into one large artform in Chicago. · EllieStock sang a song she had recently written for the occasion, “Let the EarthBreathe” · Sevensigned up for the Ferguson Transition Team, meeting in two weeks to follow upon what all this means for the Ferguson area. The twobiggest challenges coming out of the symposium were the need to recruit moremales and more younger participants to the event and figuring out what theagenda for the Ferguson Transition Team will be. For moreinformation about the symposium contact Ellie and Carleton Stock at carletonstock(a)aol.com or (314) 941-9378. LET THE EARTH BREATHE Letthe Earth breathe! Letits heart beat, pulsing and firing the fruit of itsseed. Letfour winds tease, air bright and clean. converging and swirling throughlife’s mystery. Letwaters wreathe. Letrivers be, pristine and free from deep valleysto seas. Letsinging streams stir slumbering leagues, awakening the dreamer and changingthe dream. Let mountains rise! Let forests thrive— primal communitiesbirthed to survive. Let kindred be wise, not compromise their courage and carefor greed’s beckoning lies. Letoceans race! Letnew waves chase ancient tides washing ashore cosmicgrace. Letrhythms of peace, each land embrace, all creatures together in Earth’ssacred space, creation now honored in Earth’s sacredspace, all creatures together in Earth’s sacredspace. ejhs 5/12 Also below are the lyrics for the song "Let the Earth Breathe", written for the event and used for the closing. Attached is a draft of the music notation (if the attachment is allowed to go through--can't be put in the text of the email). Carleton and Ellie Stock SUMMARY OF50TH ANNIVERSARY EVENT IN ST. LOUIS, MO ON MAY 19, 2012 One of theevents marking the 50th anniversary of the Institute of CulturalAffairs took place on Saturday, May 19, 2012 in Ferguson, MO, a first-ringsuburb of the City of St. Louis. It wasan “Awakening the Dreamer, Changing the Dream” symposium, an experience ofinspiring exploration into the links between the three facets of a “new dream”for humanity and planet earth: environmental sustainability, social justice,and spiritual fulfillment. The idea ofthe symposium grew out of the Pachamama Alliance formed ten years ago amongindigenous peoples in Ecuador, Latin America and their concerns about what theindustrial nations were doing to their land and their way of life. It combines leading edge information, livepresentation, excellent video clips, and group interaction. The Ferguson symposium was held from 8:15 to12:15 p.m. in the parish hall of the St. Stephen’s Episcopal Church and washosted by Carleton and Ellie Stock, long-time members of the ICA, living in thecommunity the last 14 years. There were27 participants, two hosts, and two facilitators from the Rockhaven EcozoicCenter about an hour from the site. 22were female, 5 male, ranging in age from late 40’s to 80. Two thirds were from the greater Fergusonarea via residency, job or organization. Thirteen were newcomers and unlike the others had not attended any ofthe monthly environmental video nights leading up to the symposium. Highlightsof the event: · Goodattention, participation, sharing and spirit · Excellenttrained and experienced facilitators from the Pachamama Alliance network · Tearsof pain because of what we are doing to the earth, our mother and tears of joyand hope because of what is already being done by others and can be done by us. · Theweaving together of the personal, the spiritual, and social justice · Displaytable with books, videos, local organizations, and ICA video and newsletter · Peoplewere introduced to the world-wide Transition Community movement · Focusedparticipation in the ICA art form project of writing promises, hopes and visionfor the next 50 years on pieces of fabric to be incorporated into one large artform in Chicago. · EllieStock sang a song she had recently written for the occasion, “Let the EarthBreathe” · Sevensigned up for the Ferguson Transition Team, meeting in two weeks to follow upon what all this means for the Ferguson area. The twobiggest challenges coming out of the symposium were the need to recruit moremales and more younger participants to the event and figuring out what theagenda for the Ferguson Transition Team will be. For moreinformation about the symposium contact Ellie and Carleton Stock at carletonstock(a)aol.com or (314) 941-9378. LET THE EARTH BREATHE Letthe Earth breathe! Letits heart beat, pulsing and firing the fruit of itsseed. Letfour winds tease, air bright and clean. converging and swirling throughlife’s mystery. Letwaters wreathe. Letrivers be, pristine and free from deep valleysto seas. Letsinging streams stir slumbering leagues, awakening the dreamer and changingthe dream. Let mountains rise! Let forests thrive— primal communitiesbirthed to survive. Let kindred be wise, not compromise their courage and carefor greed’s beckoning lies. Letoceans race! Letnew waves chase ancient tides washing ashore cosmicgrace. Letrhythms of peace, each land embrace, all creatures together in Earth’ssacred space, creation now honored in Earth’s sacredspace, all creatures together in Earth’s sacredspace. ejhs 5/12

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Best Video Clip Scenes from a Movie?
by steve har 25 May '12

25 May '12

Watching movies is so 20th C Why watch the whole movie anyway? Best Scene >From Julia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgrDlEk0MsM These actors remind you of anyone? Like any previous gigs? -CS1 -RS1 -OW-IW -- Steve

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Re: [Dialogue] The best movie line ever?
by David Walters 24 May '12

24 May '12

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The best movie line ever?
by Lee Early 24 May '12

24 May '12

"Everything is going to be all right in the end. If everything is not all right - - it's not the end." The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel Lee Lee and Leah Early 19230 Forest Park Drive Northeast #A102 Lake Forest Park, WA 98155 HOME PHONE: (206) 922-3182 LEAH'S MOBILE: (425) 922-4252 LEE'S MOBILE: (425) 212-7997 Lee's Email: lees.mail(a)comcast.net Leah's Email: leahearly(a)comcast.net

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5/24/12, Spong: "Think Different - Accept Uncertainty" Part X: The Christ - He Is Not the Savior of the Fallen
by Ellie Stock 24 May '12

24 May '12

HOMEPAGE MY PROFILE ESSAY ARCHIVE MESSAGE BOARDS CALENDAR "Think Different - Accept Uncertainty" Part X: The Christ - He Is Not the Savior of the Fallen In my studies of the origins of life and its evolution, I have become convinced that the traditional and primitive claim that involves the concept of “original sin” has got to go! This mythological misunderstanding was based on the assumption that human life began perfect, but that we had our perfection destroyed by our disobedience, which left us separated from God. This was our “original sin” and no human life escapes its effects. In the light of all we know about the origins of life “original sin” has first become quaint, then bankrupt and finally harmful and destructive of our humanity. The Christianity of the future must jettison this outdated idea if it intends to live and to participate in the world that is emerging in the 21st century. This will not be an easy transition for the Christian Church or for individual Christians to make. The concept of “original sin” has been so deeply instilled into the heart of the way that Christianity has defined itself, that for many people abandoning “original sin” feels like abandoning Christianity itself. The task before Christian leaders is therefore the task of developing a compelling new understanding of Christianity that can provide an alternative to this former understanding. This alternative will have to be far more radical and far more extensive than most people in the church can now even imagine. It will also have to be positive and in touch with what we know of the origins of life. One aspect of this alternative Christianity will be that we must see that the word “savior” is no longer a title that we can use for Jesus. Think of what that title assumes. One cannot be the “savior” unless there is something or someone who is in need of salvation. One cannot see Jesus as the “savior” unless one believes oneself to have fallen from an original perfection into the mire of “original sin.” Since that is not the way we now understand human life, what content is left in the title “savior?” What do evangelists mean when they ask: “Have you accepted Jesus as your personal savior?” What is the meaning of either the Protestant mantra: “Jesus died to save me from my sins” or the Catholic mantra which describes the Eucharist is the “Sacrifice of the Mass,” that is, a liturgical reenactment of the cross on which Jesus died for our sins? So extensively has the title “savior” permeated the Christian story that it is the primary way that Jesus is described in most Christian liturgies. Other forms of the word “savior” are the words “redeemer” and “rescuer.” We Christians even name some of our churches “The Church of the Redeemer.” We speak of redemption in Christ Jesus. This word means to restore full value to that which has been compromised, to make whole that which was broken. One redeems one’s valuables from a pawn shop by paying a premium. “Rescuer” is the word that lies behind many Protestant hymns like “Throw out the lifeline,” “Love lifted me” (when I was sinking deep in sin) and a variety of others. We are told in thousands of ways that Jesus’ act of saving us had to do with his death and with the shedding of his blood on the cross. The images are somewhat gory as we sing words such as “Washed in the blood,” “Saved by the blood” and “There’s a fountain filled with blood,” all of which imply that we are “dirty,” that we are sinful and that the blood of Jesus is endowed with cleansing power. For many people there is no other way to understand either Jesus or the Cross. It might, therefore, surprise us to know that Paul, the earliest writer of material that came to be included in the New Testament, never used the word “savior” to describe Jesus. Paul wrote between 51 and 64 C.E. If Paul is representative of the thinking about Jesus in those years before any gospel was written, we get the hint that to think of Jesus primarily as “savior” was not present among the followers of Jesus in the early years of Christian history. Neither Mark, who wrote the first gospel in the early years of the 8th decade, nor Matthew, who wrote the second gospel in the middle years of the 9th decade used the title “savior” for Jesus. So, we can surmise, that “savior” was still not the title of choice for Jesus when the 9th decade of Christian history arrived. The word “savior” makes its first appearance in Christian writing in the Gospel of Luke, a work written in the late 9th to early 10th decade of Christian history, somewhere between the years 88-93. Luke uses the word “savior” twice. The first time is in the song sung by Mary called “The Magnificat.” There she says “My spirit rejoices in God my savior.” Note that the first biblical use of the word “savior” is not a reference to Jesus, but to God! The second Lucan use of the word “savior” does apply to Jesus and is found in the song of the angel in Luke’s version of the birth of Jesus: “for to you is born this day in the city of David a savior, who is Christ the Lord” (Luke 2:11). The only other use of the word “savior” as a name for Jesus in the gospels comes in John’s story about the Samaritan woman by the well who, after her conversation with Jesus, returned to her village and announced that “This is the savior of the world” (John 4:42). Both of these gospel uses of the word “savior” could better be translated “messiah,” for they are references to the messianic function of bringing about the “Kingdom of God” on earth in which the Jewish people would be rescued from such perils of history as slavery, defeat, exile and oppression. In the Hebrew Scriptures to ask God to save meant to save the Jewish people from the clutches of an enemy, a natural disaster or a personal tragedy. It was never a reference to being saved from one’s sinfulness or one’s fall from an original perfection. It is not until one gets to the Pastoral Epistles (I & II Timothy and Titus) and the General Epistles (I & II Peter, I, II & III John and Jude), all of which are dated from about 90 to about 135 C.E., that the word “savior” comes to be applied regularly to Jesus. These are the biblical data that cause me to question just how this title “savior” comes to be the one by which Jesus is primarily known today. It clearly was not the original way the disciples thought about him. To see human life as distorted, fallen and in need of a “savior” is an idea that does not get attached to Jesus until the 4th century and was, I submit, the contribution of a man named Augustine, who was the Bishop of Hippo in North Africa, and whose writings shaped Christian thinking for about a thousand years. It is his view of the origins of human life and the birth of sin that still infect the Christian message in 2012. Augustine collapsed the two competing creation stories in the book of Genesis into a single narrative to form the background for telling the Christ story. From the first story (Gen. 1:1-2:3) he got his sense of the original perfection of the world and all that is within it. That story says that God created the world in six days and when God had finished, God looked out on all that God had made and pronounced it not only good, but complete. Human life, this story says, shared in this perfection for in the “image of God,” the man and the woman were fashioned. From the second creation story (Gen. 2:4 -3: 24) Augustine got his understanding of human rebellion, disobedience and the fall into sinfulness. Eve, tempted by the serpent, ate the “forbidden fruit” then fed it to Adam and “their eyes were opened.” God’s creation was ruined by this act of disobedience. Their sinfulness resulted, according to this primitive story, in the banishment of the original human family from God’s presence in the Garden of Eden. It caused human distress from the woman’s pain in childbirth to the man’s need to gain his daily bread from the soil of the earth. The ultimate punishment for this act of disobedience was death. The fact that everyone died meant two things to Augustine. First, it meant that everyone shared in the fall and, second, that sin was universal and original. It could not be escaped. It was part of the “being” of human life into which we were born. We needed to be saved from it, redeemed from it, rescued from it. That was the human condition. In order to free the world from its sinfulness the “savior” had to be external to the world, which of course meant that the savior had to be sent from the God who lived above the sky. In time, it became clear that the savior had to be, in some special sense, of the very nature of God. That became Augustine’s frame of reference and into that frame, he told the story of Jesus. Messiah no longer meant the one who would usher in the Kingdom of God on earth but the one who would save human life from the fall and from the power of original sin. That is thus the context in which the Jesus story has traditionally been told and it is obviously dependent on that understanding of human life’s origins. You and I, however, live in a post-Darwinian world in which this story is nonsensical. There was no original perfection from which one could fall; there was rather the emergence of life out of an evolutionary process in which survival became the driving principle and the highest value. Our ancient forebears interpreted this basic survival drive, present in all living things but self-conscious in human life, to be a manifestation of a self-centeredness that resulted from the fall, thus viewing self-centeredness moralistically when they should have viewed it biologically. Our survival-driven self-centeredness is, however, not sinful, it is in the DNA of life itself. Being saved, therefore, does not mean that someone has to pay the price of our evil in order to satisfy the judging God and to restore human life to a status it has never before possessed. It cannot mean that “Jesus died for my sins.” It cannot mean that baptism is the liturgical act to wash away the stain of the fall. It cannot mean that the Eucharist is the liturgical reenactment of the divine rescue operation accomplished on the cross. When one pulls out this central plank of the Christian story, then the whole superstructure of doctrine, dogma, creeds and liturgy collapses. That is when we know that we must “think different” and “accept uncertainty.” The future of our Christian Church depends on our doing just that. So we will continue to develop these new themes as this series continues. ~John Shelby Spong Read the essay online here. Bishop Spong's Summer Session at the Pacific School of Religion! Re-Claiming the Bible in a Post-Christian World Instructor: John Shelby Spong Dates and Times: One week: July 16-20, 9am - 1pm Description: Can the Bible, written 2000-3000 years ago, speak in any meaningful way to the 21st century? If it cannot, then is Christianity at an end? If it can, will Christianity look anything like what we have known in the past? Since creeds and doctrines are all constructed on the basis of what was believed to be "Biblical Truth," can any of the current formularies stand? Since liturgy is based on biblical definitions of sin, salvation and God, none of which make much sense to 21st century people, can Christianity tolerate the revolution that it faces? This class will be taught by one who has been a priest and bishop for 56 years with one foot in the institutional church and the other in the academic world of new insights. It is specifically designed for clergy and questing lay people. Course Credits & Cost: 1.5 credits - $990; audit - $495; 2.0 CEUs - $350 Course Number: BS-2117 (credit); BS-0003 (CEUs) Required Text: John Shelby Spong, Re-Claiming the Bible for a Non-Religious World, 2011 HarperCollins, San Francisco. Purchase here. Syllabus: Re-Claiming the Bible in a Post-Christian World Register Question & Answer Tia at the Center for Divine Love asks: Question: How do I respond to people who fear that I am going to hell because I don't believe in hell? Answer: Dear Tia, Sometimes hell seems to me to be preferable as a place in which to spend eternity, if the only other option is to spend eternity with people who think like the ones you refer to in your question! In the first place, the only place where judgment literally resides is in God. Those who presume to play the role of God and speak about another person's eternal destiny are presuming that they can speak for God and are guilty of the sin of blasphemy. Second, the Devil is now and always has been a mythological figure, who comes into the Judeo-Christian story very late in history after the exile. It reflects the dualism of Zoroastrianism, which the Jews met when the Persians conquered the Babylonians who were at that time holding the Jews in captivity. When Satan first appears in the scriptures he is an angel and is in the employ of God testing Job on God’s behalf. Only later does he become a fallen angel who rules the world and into whose hands we dare not fall. Third, the convenient ability to blame an external being for any moral lapse is little more than uninformed piety. It sees God as a punishing parent and seeks to escape the divine wrath by saying, “It was not my fault, God, the devil made me do it.” That is a perfect formula for personal irresponsibility. This kind of religious talk is pitifully immature and significantly uninformed, not only about God but about life itself. So, to answer your question, I would ignore people who think you are hell-bound because you do not share their particular mental illness and I would not seek their company. The last thing I would do is to try to engage these people in conversation. Love them! That is our duty as Christians, but don’t engage them as that is a tactic that is guaranteed to be ineffective. ~John Shelby Spong Announcements Read what Bishop Spong has to say about A Joyful Path Progressive Christian Spiritual Curriculum for Young Hearts and Minds: "The great need in the Christian church is for a Sunday school curriculum for children that does not equate faith with having a pre-modern mind. The Center for Progressive Christianity has produced just that. Teachers can now teach children in Sunday school without crossing their fingers. I endorse it wholeheartedly." Subscribers, please remember that your subscription is automatically renewed. You can unsubscribe at any time. Simply login to access your profile page and cancel your account. Login to be able to comment directly on the website. Join in the discussion! Interested in staying informed of the latest updates to ProgressiveChristianity.org? Click here to sign up for our free monthly e-Bulletin, which has articles, reviews, books, events, and more. Look for Bishop Spong on Facebook and LIKE the Facebook page for ProgressiveChristianity.org! You can also follow Bishop Spong on Twitter. Thank you for taking this journey with us! Any questions or concerns, please contact us at support(a)johnshelbyspong.com or 503-236-3545. forward to a friend Copyright © 2012 ProgressiveChristianity.org, All rights reserved. You are receiving this email because you have a membership at our website. Our mailing address is: ProgressiveChristianity.org 4916 Pt Fosdick Dr, NW #148 Gig Harbor, WA 98335 Add us to your address book

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Cleveland Region Celebrates 50 for 50
by Norm and Judy Lindblad 23 May '12

23 May '12

Sixteen amazing folks - six in the flesh and ten through letters and videos - became a Wall of Wonder on behalf of the Cleveland Region on Saturday, May 19, 2012, in Hamilton, OH celebrating EI/ICA's 50th Anniversary. * Those present included: Emma Melton, Cleveland; Ann Antenen our host at her Berkeley Square Community in Hamilton; and Myra Griffin, Brady Melton , Jr., Norm and Judy Lindblad, Cincinnati. In spirit and by YouTube: Mark, Jenelle and Tim Dove, Columbus; Jim and Joan Armour, Cincinnati; Michael May, Bloomington, IN; John Gibson, Indianapolis, IN; Nancy Lanphear, Bothel, WA; Frank Knutson, Redlands, CA; Gordon Harper, Seattle, WA, via e-mail and video; Doris Jane Conway, Granville, OH; and Suzanne Wason, San Antonio, TX, via Brady's cell phone! All are "Alumni" or current residents of this "Region". An *In Memorium* table bore the pictures of deceased colleagues Jay Antenen, Anita Gibson, and Barbara Barkony. As we sang "Believe - That The Time Has Come" we marvelled at how contemporary the words felt in our mouths. Our song sheet is available if you're interested or curious. Memories were shared from EG (Emerging Generation) adventures to Global Odysseys, and amazing, urgent requests for funds and faithful responses. Myra Griffin said that she finds herself reflecting, "now where did I learn this?" and so often it is ICA. Then she remembers the person who taught or said it and the memories just flow...it"s like her Meditative Council. Emma and Brady Melton shared a "Recipe" for Second and Third Generation involvement in "The Movement" that bridged the past, present, and future. It will be posted soon on the ICA-USA website. Videos of Ohio Teacher of the Year for 2011, Tim Dove, and the Phoenix Middle School in Worthington, OH and Gordon Harper's ToP Trainers Crowd Meeting the Occupy Crowd also seeded our images of the future. We discerned a few other local building blocks for the future: the Sustainable Indiana 2016 initiative that John Gibson is working on; an Art therapy program for persons with Alzheimer's that Ann Antenen has sponsored in her retirement community; Brady Melton's "Yes I Am" program for youth drawing on Imaginal Education; and Emma Melton's "Breakthrough Schools" and "Greater Cleveland Congregations" collaborative. The day concluded with Celebrations...Ann's 87th Birthday and Norm and Judy's 50th Wedding Anniversary... 21 Challenges, and Hopes for the Future "Strips" were created for the Anniversary Fabric Artform. In closing we again affirmed that* "These Are The Times and We Are The People"!* * * **Pictures will follow in separate e-mail.*

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Cleveland Region Celebration Pictures
by Norm and Judy Lindblad 23 May '12

23 May '12

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Norm and Judy Lindblad <nj.lindblad(a)gmail.com> Date: Wed, May 23, 2012 at 4:36 PM Subject: 7 great iPhotos To: Norm and Judy Lindblad <nj.lindblad(a)gmail.com> In Memorium Table Lots of Memories Emma Melton, Ann Antenen, Myra Griffin, Brady Melton and Norm Lindblad enjoy food and conversation. Ann leading Strip creations. Myra deciding which color to use next. Emma claiming promises. Sharing strips with granddaughter Ashley...she was impressed. Our heartfelt strips.

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