May 2012 - Dialogue - lists.wedgeblade.net

Re: [Dialogue] Grand Design
by steve har 23 May '12

23 May '12

Jack I went to the zen center last night with your "provocative proposition" in the arena of scientific distinctions vs having a getalt, perhaps a mostly christian gestalt that holds heaven and earth more or less in the same unifying framework. [my take on your view, might not be your take on your view] The words I carried with me from your last dialogue post were: ..."You (John Epps) are very kind to Dawkins with your last statement "The two can co-exist......" because, although there is a general acceptance of evolution by most theologians (but not necessarily to the degree of mindlessness that Dawkins advocates), their side (Dawkins) does not recognize the other side at all. All of the wonder and mystery will some day be understood as simply brain signals that trigger these feelings etc. etc. So the whole "game" is played on the left brain rules of the game; logic, science and language. I'm not going to again make the case for an intelligence implicit in all things, but the ability to have a purpose to all this requires some direction, some purpose behind all the science activity. The capacity to integrate experience and thus evolve into better survival capacity requires intelligence. Jack." For those not acquainted with Soto zen... the ceremonial & study group I attended is a tradition of a 100 days study group that became a because of the rainy season hundreds of years ago which continues today. There wasn't much for the monks to do except get out of the rain and gather together and among other tasks study something. The usual routine is -listen for the signal of the "Han" -a wooden hammer striking a wooden announcement board inscribed with "the important matter of life and death -silent siting meditation -a 1on1 short private, sometimes public conversation between teacher and student often around a -a study of some text in sort of a bible study mode or maybe a literary seminar group at a college. I was startled to hear Dosho Port -the seminar leader" take up a 1300 Century paragraph for Dogen who was the founder of Soto Zen and the 1st person to write holy literature in Japanese instead of Chinese; sort of like Luther publishing 99 paragraphs in German instead of Latin [the real blasphemy' The paragraph from Dogen was YOUR theme: "Even if there is a hair-breath of difference, you ar as far away as heaven from earth. This being so, the ultimate way is not difficult, it is just that selection is necessary" [talking about Awareness/Enlightenment] The Rochester Zen Center took up this paragraph which is often treated as a zen koan and with poetry like: "Zin Zin Ming" -- often translated as Faith or Affirming Faith in Mind [written by one of the oldest Chinese Buddhist teachers a kind of Joe Mathews character] The Poem talks about the advantages/disadvantages of having distinctions or having a unified view and reads in part: The Great Way is not diﬃcult for those who do not pick and choose. When preferences are cast aside, the Way stands clear and undisguised. But even slight distinctions made set earth and heaven far apart. If you would clearly see the truth, discard opinions pro and con. To founder in dislike and like is nothing but the mind’s disease. And not to see the Way’s deep truth disturbs the mind’s essential peace. You can read the whole thing at: http://www.rzc.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/RZC-chant-book-cropped.pdf The Rochester Zen Center has spent some years trying to get the Chinese and Japanese into suitable English so it can be made into a proper Soto-style chant, which is a little like learning how write and perform current hip-hop. You can hear the Rochester Zen Center changing this poem here: http://www.rzc.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Affirming-Faith-in-Mind.mp3 What's my point: 1. Dawkin's view may be a little scientific provincial, like his christian debaters are a little christian provincial. It is a big world out there. There are a lot of people trying to find what it means to try to find a space to stand in that hyphenated space between This world -- The other world. 2 And it is the reason I like your provocative propositions...and also -Joe Mathews talk on the Other World about 1972 -John Epps 1996+ work on Other World in contemporary language not the coded jargon of 1972 Other World Charts -the Jenkins translations of the New Religious Mode Chartes into 21C language. -- Steve Harrington

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Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design
by PSchrijnen＠aol.com 22 May '12

22 May '12

Indeed John, You say that well. I think that was the point of the debate: To point out that these two academics operate in two parallel universes. Dawkins was surprisingly open and charming. he is usually more righteous. In this debate he behaved. The surroundings of the Sheldonian may have helped. Williams is retiring at the end of the year to become the master of a Cambridge college. He is a fine theologian, and has played a positive role as archbishop in civil life here. I am sure he will be glad to get out of that job though. I have enjoyed his book Silence and Honey Cakes frequently. A fine little book about the wisdom of the desert monastics. Paul In a message dated 21/05/2012 22:52:36 GMT Daylight Time, jlepps(a)pc.jaring.my writes: Thanks Paul for this fascinating dialogue. It was far more civil than some of the exchanges of ideas that often occur on this side of the Atlantic. IMHO, Dr. Dawkins was quite modest in his claims to certainty about things, and Archbishop Williams was quite articulate in defining what he did and did not mean by "God." It seemed, though, that Dr. Dawkins was objecting to a notion of God that Archbishop Rowan did not advocate, and that is an example of what I find objectionable about Steven Hawking's book. Of course it would be silly to expect physicists to be experts in theology, as it would be for theologians to claim expertise in physics. The two can co-exist quite harmoniously with one dealing with value and meaning (why) and the other dealing with the nature of reality and its operations (what and how). John At 12:40 PM 5/20/2012, you wrote: I enjoyed the debate between Richard Dawkins and Rowan Williams on some of these questions: _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfQk4NfW7g0_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfQk4NfW7g0) Maybe it adds another dimension...? Paul In a message dated 20/05/2012 19:18:12 GMT Daylight Time, LAURELCG(a)aol.com writes: Jack, The Ground of Being that WAS before the big bang, and the Evolutionary Impulse (Becoming) that started the big bang, is what we've called God. (This I've gleaned from Andrew Cohen.) I agree it is all intelligent, but our tiny brains cannot begin to understand it. IT is the All, in the phrases, "All that is, is good." and "I am One with All That Is." Science is about grappling to understand it. Good scientists are usually in awe of what they're discovering. What else would keep someone looking in a microscope all day every day for years, or whatever laborious process is required in their discipline? Scientists like Bryan Swimme and men of faith like Thomas Berry sometimes collaborate to come up with inspired works, like The Universe Story. This is all just my humble opinion, as is the belief that the church, the cutting edge today, is the evolutionary spirituality movement. Jean Houston is a recognized leader of it and almost invariably ends her internet sessions with "These are the times, we are the people." >From the great central valley of California, the center of the Universe, Jann In a message dated 5/20/2012 10:57:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, icabombay(a)igc.org writes: As to the "Grand Design", it is the contention of some that the creative process, that which underlies all, is inherently intelligent and that intelligence can be understood. _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net _http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net_ (http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net) _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net _http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net_ (http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net) _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

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Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design
by David Walters 22 May '12

22 May '12

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Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design
by PSchrijnen＠aol.com 22 May '12

22 May '12

I enjoyed the debate between Richard Dawkins and Rowan Williams on some of these questions: _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfQk4NfW7g0_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfQk4NfW7g0) Maybe it adds another dimension...? Paul In a message dated 20/05/2012 19:18:12 GMT Daylight Time, LAURELCG(a)aol.com writes: Jack, The Ground of Being that WAS before the big bang, and the Evolutionary Impulse (Becoming) that started the big bang, is what we've called God. (This I've gleaned from Andrew Cohen.) I agree it is all intelligent, but our tiny brains cannot begin to understand it. IT is the All, in the phrases, "All that is, is good." and "I am One with All That Is." Science is about grappling to understand it. Good scientists are usually in awe of what they're discovering. What else would keep someone looking in a microscope all day every day for years, or whatever laborious process is required in their discipline? Scientists like Bryan Swimme and men of faith like Thomas Berry sometimes collaborate to come up with inspired works, like The Universe Story. This is all just my humble opinion, as is the belief that the church, the cutting edge today, is the evolutionary spirituality movement. Jean Houston is a recognized leader of it and almost invariably ends her internet sessions with "These are the times, we are the people." >From the great central valley of California, the center of the Universe, Jann In a message dated 5/20/2012 10:57:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, icabombay(a)igc.org writes: As to the "Grand Design", it is the contention of some that the creative process, that which underlies all, is inherently intelligent and that intelligence can be understood. _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

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Re: [Dialogue] Grand Design Challenge Round: a pop quiz
by steve har 21 May '12

21 May '12

re: Grand Design Challenge Round pop quiz: --- The innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and luke warm defenders of those who may do well under the new. One Sentence Challenge: Q1 famous author of this famous quote is: Q2 what was the old grand design again: Q2: the new grand design same question: Q3 what might have been asked or said about the new grand design [choose 1] -JP Sartre -Harriet Tubman -JWM -Gene Marshall -Ken Wilbur -Jerry Falwell -the Buddha -Karl Rove - Q4 who did well under the old design? Q5 who might do well under the new design? -- Steve

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Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design
by LAURELCG＠aol.com 21 May '12

21 May '12

Love it, Jim. Thanks. Jann In a message dated 5/21/2012 11:10:50 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com writes: Found this poem in the waiting area at the Episcopal Diocese office here in Arizona. Somehow it relates to this topic. To My Medial Prefrontal Cortex Isabel Galbraith People who have positive illusions are less likely to be depressed. . . . There are risks, however, in maintaining illusions that are too out of whack. – Timothy D, Wilson When I first heard of you, my scout, Spinning, glossing, scrubbing out Harsh facts about myself—the grout And plaque of melancholy— I welcomed you, my little sprout Of green and glossy holly. Within your songs, you troubadour, I'm Mark Twain, not James Fennimore, Kristin Wig, not Drew Barrymore, Marley, not Cheech or Chong; I’m touchable waves, not pompadour, Bikini, not sarong. But now I know you’re there I’m scared. What buried thoughts have not been bared? What temporary awarenesses aired Then were shut up in their towers? I don’t want to be unprepared For life’s cold thundershowers. So don’t puff me up to astronaut, Or Guinevere of Camelot, Or world’s best boss, Sir Michael Scott— The let-down’s suicidal As Dangle and his banjo not Making American Idol. And so, tonight, I try to view Myself as all outsiders do. I shut you off; now I’m see-through As a window in the dark, And in the mirror I’m 32 And what is soft is stark: Dumb jokes my friends indulge me in, New wrinkles in my oily skin, The joie de vivre that I trade in For grouchiness at home, Lost time that I could have spent Working on a poem, Dumb poems about the slightest things, A pen that’s lost and long-lost flings – They hurt, but what really stings Is when I add it up: No roommates and no wedding ring, No money, book, or cup. . . . I’m definitely glad you’re there, Protecting me from this despair, The bruises my ego would otherwise wear, Believing it deserved them. You help me function, help me dare, Steel nerves when life unnerves them. The trouble is, we must – like flowers – Receive the right amount of showers And sun to pull new blooms from bowers. To help us be us The inner eye’s more sweet than sour: Ourselves as loved ones see us

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Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design
by LAURELCG＠aol.com 20 May '12

20 May '12

Actually, I did participate, as follows, on May 17. I've assumed that the great creation stories of the world WERE the scientific world view at the time they were formulated and that science and religion only split around the time of Galileo. Guess it wasn't wordy enough to get a response. Blessings to all, Jann In a message, John Epps wrote: So far all of us participants have been, as one participant called our demographic, "pale, stale, and male." Do you suppose the subject is just not that interesting, or are there other reasons?

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Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design
by LAURELCG＠aol.com 20 May '12

20 May '12

Jack, The Ground of Being that WAS before the big bang, and the Evolutionary Impulse (Becoming) that started the big bang, is what we've called God. (This I've gleaned from Andrew Cohen.) I agree it is all intelligent, but our tiny brains cannot begin to understand it. IT is the All, in the phrases, "All that is, is good." and "I am One with All That Is." Science is about grappling to understand it. Good scientists are usually in awe of what they're discovering. What else would keep someone looking in a microscope all day every day for years, or whatever laborious process is required in their discipline? Scientists like Bryan Swimme and men of faith like Thomas Berry sometimes collaborate to come up with inspired works, like The Universe Story. This is all just my humble opinion, as is the belief that the church, the cutting edge today, is the evolutionary spirituality movement. Jean Houston is a recognized leader of it and almost invariably ends her internet sessions with "These are the times, we are the people." >From the great central valley of California, the center of the Universe, Jann In a message dated 5/20/2012 10:57:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, icabombay(a)igc.org writes: As to the "Grand Design", it is the contention of some that the creative process, that which underlies all, is inherently intelligent and that intelligence can be understood.

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Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design
by KarenBueno＠aol.com 20 May '12

20 May '12

Ummm. I have read Hawking's book, and followed this discussion. I guess the topic just doesn't seem particularly relevant to me just now. Karen Bueno In a message dated 5/18/2012 1:37:49 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jlepps(a)pc.jaring.my writes: Colleagues: Have any of you noticed the absence of diversity in this conversation? So far all of us participants have been, as one participant called our demographic, "pale, stale, and male." Do you suppose the subject is just not that interesting, or are there other reasons? John E _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

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FYI - Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber
by Beret Griffith 20 May '12

20 May '12

For anyone interested in Andrew Cohen/Ken Wilber conversations. >From the site: Uniting Cohen's pragmatic experience as a teacher of enlightenment with Wilber's extensive theoretical knowledge, the Guru & Pandit series offers a unique synthesis of theory and practice. A FREE Audio Webcast Series Featuring Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber June 2nd . August 4th . October 6th . December 21st http://webprod.evolutionaryenlightenment.com/calls/static/guru-pandit.html Beret Griffith

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