November 2012 - Dialogue - lists.wedgeblade.net

11/15/12, Spong: The Birth of Jesus, Part II: Paul and the Virgin Birth
by Ellie Stock 17 Nov '12

17 Nov '12

HOMEPAGE MY PROFILE ESSAY ARCHIVE MESSAGE BOARDS CALENDAR The Birth of Jesus, Part II: Paul and the Virgin Birth In the writings of Paul, there is not a single reference to a supernatural birth tradition, regarding Jesus of Nazareth. That is a fact easily established. Determining what that fact means is a bit more complicated. Does this omission mean that Paul was unaware of this part of the Christian tradition? Is it possible that a story as dramatic as the one that appeared 20-30 years later in the gospels of Matthew and Luke could have been ignored by Paul, if it had been known? Paul was an educated man. The idea of a great person being born in a supernatural way that presaged his greatness was not unknown. There were birth legends surrounding the nativity of such icons as Alexander the great, Romulus and Remus and the deity called Mithra, for example, all of which were almost certainly known by Paul. So the evidence suggests that Paul did not include any reference to this tradition in regard to Jesus’ birth because he had never heard of it. If Paul had never heard of this tradition, the overwhelmingly probable explanation of this fact would be that the miraculous stories of Jesus’ birth had not yet been written, which means that they were not an original part of the Christian story. That is, however, an argument from silence and as such is not regarded as particularly definitive. So we turn to Paul’s writings to see what might be possible for us to conclude as the reality that Paul knew on this subject. Paul gives us some biographical details in one of his earliest epistles, the Epistle to the Galatians. Here he argues that the gospel he proclaims “is not man’s (nor according to man) gospel.” He goes on to say, “I did not receive it from man nor was I taught it but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ” (Gal. 1:10-12). Then he recites his history as a persecutor of the Christian Church. Obviously that was well known, but we need to be aware that the details of his conversion on the road to Damascus will not be written until Luke produced the Book of Acts in the tenth decade of the Common Era, some 30 plus years after the death of Paul. Paul then describes his life in Judaism in which he asserts that he was “extremely zealous” for “the tradition of my fathers” (Gal. 1:14). Then he described his conversion saying that God had “set me apart” and was “pleased to reveal his son to me in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles.” To back up this claim, Paul says that after his conversion, which scholars place between one and six years following the crucifixion, he went to Arabia for three years and only then went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephus, that is Peter, and stayed with him for 15 days. He says he saw no other apostle “except for James, the Lord’s brother.” So somewhere no earlier than four years and no later than nine years after the crucifixion, Paul was in the presence of Peter and James, the brother of Jesus. In the first epistle to the Corinthians in chapter 11 and in chapter 15, Paul uses the phrase, “For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you.” In chapter 11 that phrase introduces Paul’s understanding of the institution of the “Lord’s Supper” and in chapter 15 he relates the final events in Jesus’ life: the crucifixion, the burial and the Easter experience of resurrection. From putting these things together we know that Paul learned many of the details of the Jesus story from his association with the disciples, though Paul insists that he got to know Jesus directly, by way of a revelatory experience. He also knows that Jesus had a brother. If the miraculous birth of Jesus had been a fact of history instead of a later developing legend, it seems obvious that an event of this presumed degree of importance would have been communicated to Paul. It wasn’t. In none of Paul’s writings is there any mention of the mother of Jesus, the father of Jesus or the birth of Jesus. This still remains, however, an argument from silence and as such continues to be weak and inconclusive. So, back to the Epistle to the Galatians we go in search of more data. Here we discover that Paul actually discusses the origins of Jesus. Interpreting the differences in being a child in a family as opposed to being a slave in a family, he argues that children are heirs and that even though they are placed under the authority of guardians, teachers and trustees until they come of age, they are nonetheless destined for freedom and their inheritance. Paul uses this analogy to explain the role of the law given to the people of Israel. The law is to them what guardians, teachers and trustees are to children who are not yet of age. They are obedient to them while they wait for their promised inheritance. In Paul’s mind, the role of Jesus was to give to all human life, Jews and Gentiles alike, the inheritance of full humanity, “sonship” he called it in the patriarchal world. Then in a wonderfully clear affirmation, Paul asserts this: “When the time had fully come, God sent forth his son, born of a woman, born under the law, so that we might receive adoption as “sons” (Gal. 4:8). For Paul, Jesus was “born of a woman.” That is, he was born just like any other person. It is not possible, he was suggesting, to be born in any other way. Could the word that is translated “woman” have in it any connotation of virgin? Not a chance! The Greek word used here is a form of the word “gunos” from which we get the word gynecology. It is not the word “parthenos” from which we get the word “parthenogenesis,” that is to give birth by a single sex and which does include the connotation of virgin. Jesus came from God the way every life comes from God, he was born of a woman. Paul also says that like every Jew he was also born under the law. Paul could not be clearer. The idea of a miraculous or virgin birth is never hinted at by this early Christian writer because he had never heard of it. The story of Jesus’ supernatural birth had not yet been written or developed. When these birth stories were written, one of their purposes was to assert that from the moment of his birth, Jesus was uniquely related to God. It is also clear that this idea was not one even entertained by Paul. To make this case we turn to the opening verses of the Epistle to the Romans. Paul certainly gives expression to his conviction that somehow and through some means, the reality of God they thought of as transcendent had been experienced as present in Jesus of Nazareth. In his early epistles he was content simply to proclaim the reality of this experience not to explain it. So he wrote that “God was in Christ” and the content that made this claim real was the experience of “reconciliation.” In the Christ experience, those people who had once been separated are brought together. Again, in Galatians, the apostle proclaims that inside the Christ experience, human differences and human barriers simply fade away. In Christ, there is no such thing as tribal identity, that is, there is no Jew or Greek, no Jew or Gentile, but one humanity. In Christ, there is no gender identity, no male or female, but a single humanity. In Christ, value is not established by economic or social standards, there is no bond or free, no slave or master, but a new creation, a new oneness. That was the God experience that Paul found in Jesus. It was a theme resonating throughout the New Testament. We see it in the Pentecost story of Acts 2 where spirit-filled people are said to be able to communicate in the same language of human oneness. We see it in the divine commission in Matthew 28 where the followers of Jesus are instructed in the name of Jesus to go to those whom they have previously described as unclean and unworthy and to proclaim to them the limitless love of God. We see it in the Fourth Gospel in which Jesus defines his purpose as giving abundant life to all. That is the God experience that his followers believed they had met in Jesus. When did this God presence enter into Jesus? Paul says it was at the time of the resurrection. This was the moment in which God and Jesus became one in the mind of Paul. So to the Romans he writes that Jesus was descended from King David “according to the flesh,” but was “designated Son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead” (Romans 1:3-4). As the tradition developed, that moment when God and Jesus became part of each other would get earlier and earlier. In Mark it was when he was baptized. In Matthew and Luke, it was when he was conceived. In John it was at the dawn of creation. The story of the origins of Jesus’ power would develop significantly between Paul and the later gospels. In that later development, the story of the Virgin Birth would be born and it would begin to grow. Paul, however, knew nothing of this tradition, since it was not developed until well after his death. The witness of Paul is clear. He never heard of the Virgin Birth. This fact begins to relativize the power of this claim as “revealed truth.” The Virgin Birth is not an essential ingredient in the Christian story. Why? Because one can hardly say that Paul, who had never heard of the Virgin Birth tradition, was not a Christian. ~John Shelby Spong Read the essay online here. Question & Answer Cynthia A. MoriczdeTecso via the internet writes: Question: You may not remember me but I grew up attending St. John's Boonton with Father Jack Thorn. Back then I was known as Cindy and the daughter of Ian and Allie Moricz. Ian was the "Lay Person" who helped Father Thorn. I know you always meet so many people, but I did have a question and thought you would be the best person to ask. As a child I knew that there were things we could and could not see around us. I am not just talking about the Holy Spirit or God, but ghosts, angels and demons. As an adult, I been involved with paranormal investigations. I have had some incredible experiences and began a blog site to share my personal stories as well as evidence I have captured (www.originalcynpi.com) I always had an inclining that I wanted to write a book on the subject but there are so many out there that I wanted to be different. This past year, I have been praying to find a topic for a book that I could use to educate people on the paranormal - the good and the bad. The answer came to me that it should be about Religion and how it perceives the paranormal world. My issue is I don't know where to start. Other than angels and demons, I haven't found any mention of ghosts. I am not really sure where to begin looking to find this information. I know that you are truly busy but wondered if you could push me to a starting point as you are a publishing author. PS - Thank you for being who God intended you to be. Your ability to question, allowed me to question and get some answers. Although, I know I have a long way to go before all my questions are answered. Thank you for your consideration. Best regards, Cynthia A. MoriczdeTecso Answer: Dear Cynthia: Yes, I do remember you and your family and I am pleased to her from you once more. You have chosen a complex area to study. It is a legitimate field of inquiry. You do need to be aware that this field attracts lots of people to venture into it, who are on the border of mental stability. this means you need to make clear the boundaries of your study, so as not to be identified with these fringes. Do not waste your time reading on the fringes. The whole subject does not lend itself to verifiable study. There are some resources that can guide you. A generation ago a professor at Duke University, Dr. J.B. Rhine devoted his life to the study of parapsychology and the near death the out of body experiences. If you can find any of his work, it is worth reading. It should be in libraries. A second source is a theologian named John Hick, a citizen of the U.K., now in his nineties, who taught for years at Claremont in California. He did a massive study in this area in a book entitled: "Death and Eternal Life." That book is also probably available in a good library and his bibliography would open many more doors for your study. I hope this will get you started. The closest I came to the subject in my career was in my book Eternal Life: A New Vision -- Beyond Religion, Beyond Theism, Beyond Heaven and Hell. Your topic was not germane to mine in this book, but I did allude to it. I remain a sceptic about its reality, but I am an open sceptic. My regards to you and any members of your family that might remember me. ~John Shelby Spong Announcements Any questions or concerns, please contact us at support(a)johnshelbyspong.com or 503-236-3545. Copyright © 2012 ProgressiveChristianity.org, All rights reserved. You are receiving this email because you have a membership at our website. Our mailing address is: ProgressiveChristianity.org 3530 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Unit 1 Portland, OR 97214 Add us to your address book If you are a paying subscriber, you may login and cancel your account. Sent to elliestock(a)aol.com — why did I get this? unsubscribe from this list | update subscription preferences ProgressiveChristianity.org · 3530 SE Hawthorne Blvd. · Unit 1 · Portland, OR 97214

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Thanks for you interest and care from Steve
by steve har 17 Nov '12

17 Nov '12

Steve Harrington here; thanks for asking about my well being. Here's the what's what: -I'm mending nicely from my surgical biopsy several weeks ago -I got the biopsy results last Tuesday but no new information -the biopsy found nothing to aid diagnosis/treatment; they are simply unable to discern what is causing the lung scaring -it isn't clear if the condition will remain the same, get worse rapidly or slowly, it will never get better -I will need to wear an oxygen bottle when I exercise now, and I'm restarting my exercise program today -I'm going back to Mayo Clinic for a detailed review of the tissue samples on Friday -I'm headed back to Costa Rica after American Thanksgiving to enjoy Summer in Winter. Like they say in Brooklyn where I used to live: "it is what it is" or like they say in Costa Rican Spanish with a little more poetry: "Pura Vida" ["pure life" in English lingo, which doesn't express much in current American culture. I intend to return to San Jose, exercise on Christmas day at the beach and do my best to support the Archives Team long distance help the formation of new easy access online collections so people can see the the future of our past and pay it forward. Thanks again for your interest and expression of care. Steve St. Paul, MN --- PS: If you want to know how to get involved in,, rrecommend or participate in new collections please -ask for Ccollection Updates at fallsojourn(a)gmail.com or -subscribe to the Archive blog atfallsojourn.posterous.com. -- Steve Harrington

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by Norm and Judy Lindblad 16 Nov '12

16 Nov '12

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(no subject)
by Norm and Judy Lindblad 16 Nov '12

16 Nov '12

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Re: [Dialogue] Thanks for you interest and care from Steve
by LAURELCG＠aol.com 15 Nov '12

15 Nov '12

Thanks for the report, Steve. I admire your attitude, and that you're getting back to exercise, which does so much to help the immune system. Regarding "it will never get better": I'd love you to read the book Remarkable Recovery. One of the authors is Hirschberg. its many stories illustrate that "all is possible." Blessings on your journey. Pura vida de verdad. Jann McGuire In a message dated 11/15/2012 8:29:43 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, stevehar11201(a)gmail.com writes: Steve Harrington here; thanks for asking about my well being. Here's the what's what: -I'm mending nicely from my surgical biopsy several weeks ago -I got the biopsy results last Tuesday but no new information -the biopsy found nothing to aid diagnosis/treatment; they are simply unable to discern what is causing the lung scaring -it isn't clear if the condition will remain the same, get worse rapidly or slowly, it will never get better -I will need to wear an oxygen bottle when I exercise now, and I'm restarting my exercise program today -I'm going back to Mayo Clinic for a detailed review of the tissue samples on Friday -I'm headed back to Costa Rica after American Thanksgiving to enjoy Summer in Winter. Like they say in Brooklyn where I used to live: "it is what it is" or like they say in Costa Rican Spanish with a little more poetry: "Pura Vida" ["pure life" in English lingo, which doesn't express much in current American culture. I intend to return to San Jose, exercise on Christmas day at the beach and do my best to support the Archives Team long distance help the formation of new easy access online collections so people can see the the future of our past and pay it forward. Thanks again for your interest and expression of care. Steve St. Paul, MN --- PS: If you want to know how to get involved in,, rrecommend or participate in new collections please -ask for Ccollection Updates at _fallsojourn(a)gmail.com_ (mailto:fallsojourn@gmail.com) or -subscribe to the Archive blog at_fallsojourn.posterous.com_ (http://fallsojourn.posterous.com/) . -- Steve Harrington _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue(a)lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net

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Steve Harrington' Health
by Jack Gilles 15 Nov '12

15 Nov '12

Dear Colleagues, On behalf of the crew working on the archives, we'd like you to be aware of the current health challenges of Steve Harrington, one of the stalwarts of our work. Steve has a chronic lung condition, tentatively named ideopathic pulmonary fibrosis, which is scaring in the lung tissue with no known cause. With no clear cause, there is no treatment. There are several possible causes two are treatable one isn't, except with a lung transplant. Thoratic surgery will be next Wednesday afternoon in Regions Hospital They are going to cut into his chest and lungs to take some tissue samples for a biopsy. There are 3 people doing the diagnosis of the biopsy one at Regions and 2 at Mayo Clinic. The surgery take about 40 minutes and will involve a 4 day hospital stay and 2 weeks recovery with chest tubes. He is on the list for, perhaps, a lung replacement, if there is no treatment. Steve will be recovering at his sister's for about 2 weeks and he hope to return to Costa Rica in November with a new treatment regimen and a really fast internet connection. Our prayers are offered for his quick recovery and return to full service. Those of us working on the archives are so grateful for his passion and creativity for our work. Jack Gilles

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by E B 14 Nov '12

14 Nov '12

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by Colleen Smith 13 Nov '12

13 Nov '12

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Re: [Dialogue] dialogue Hey
by Colleen Smith 13 Nov '12

13 Nov '12

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Re: [Dialogue] Question about the social process triangles . . .
by Clarence Mann 12 Nov '12

12 Nov '12

RE: Question about the social process triangles . . . The chapter on "Corporate Social Responsibility" in* Transforming the Legacy *, Vol. II (2009) provides a four-step methodology (via juxtaposing the social process and corporate process triangles) for* performing a CSR** corporate** audit*, which any company could use to align its operations more effectively with country social needs/issues. Working with a representative group of company personnel via a once-a-week workshop over a 2-3 month period, I think anyone trained in ICA workshop methods could design and facilitate a company CSR audit and assist thecompany to better align the dynamics of its operations, so as to generate positive effects on the immediate community and society-at-large without substantial costs. For instance, employing and training local talent and helping to organize and work with local organizations on various issues can be of great value to a community and its environment. Clancy -----Original Message----- From: jlepps(a)pc.jaring.my [mailto:jlepps@pc.jaring.my <jlepps(a)pc.jaring.my>] Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 1:54 AM To: James Wiegel; Jack Gilles (Google Drive); Colleague Dialogue; OE list serve Cc: jeanwatts(a)cox.net; synergi(a)yahoo.com; david(a)mirrorcommunication.com; cmann(a)umuc.edu; markdove543(a)gmail.com; jgmarshall(a)cableone.net; thefishels(a)earthlink.net; billgrow(a)verizon.net; larrydloeppke(a)mchsi.com; icalarry(a)ms69.hinet.net; rcwmbw(a)yahoo.com; InaRja(a)comcast.net; vinodkamalaparekh(a)gmail.com; bailey03132(a)charter.net; janetasanders(a)hotmail.com; marilyncrocker(a)juno.com; cfhahn30(a)gmail.com; stovern(a)bellsouth.net; jimandjo(a)sbcglobal.net; clingojr(a)aol.com; m.george.walters(a)verizon.net; gharper1(a)mindspring.com; stevehar11201(a)gmail.com; bparker175(a)cox.net; LenH(a)efn.org; wnelson(a)ica-associates.ca; geowanda(a)earthlink.net; george.packard1(a)rcn.com; Larry(a)thelotusinstitute.org; hfgreene(a)mindspring.com; lees.mail(a)comcast.net; jpatterson(a)abbeynorth.ca; lelajahn(a)hotmail.com; bergdall(a)gmail.com; joseph.slicker(a)gmail.com Subject: Re: Question about the social process triangles . . . Hello Jim. Have this friend look for Clancy Mann's book, Borderless Business: Managing the Far-Flung Enterprise (Mann & Goetz, Westport, Conn., Praeger Publishing, 2006) chapter 7 in which he lays out the Social Process Triangle as a basis for Managing Country Risk. Clancy's chapter in Bending History II is also a good "promotion of its use." I currently teach a graduate business course through University of Maryland University College in which the SPT is presented and used as a basic method for analyzing a country. You could say that I use it at least weekly, and have for the past 10 years. Roughly 350 students have taken the course and they generally love it as a comprehensive tool for analyzing a country's business environment. It's far better than Porter's Diamond, which is the standard business method for the purpose. John At 08:10 PM 11/3/2012, James Wiegel wrote: >I got this question from a fellow I know who is intrigued with the >Social Process triangles. Any responses?? > >He said: I think there are very few people who currently care about >the Social Process Triangle as a tool to be used for social >transformation. Can you point me to someone is promotes it's use, >trains others on at least an biannual basis using it, or has tried to >implement it in a recognizable or tangible manner other than the >Jenkins? Short mentions in books on other topics is, for my purposes, >great, but is there anyone you know using it daily, weekly, or monthly >to train or manage something or anything? > >Jim Wiegel > >"Life has got a habit of not standing hitched. You got to ride it like >you find it.. You got to change with it." Woody Guthrie > > >401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401 >+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel >jfwiegel(a)yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com > >Upcoming public course opportunities: >ToP Facilitation Methods Coming in February. Ask about an inhouse >course ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012 The AZ Community of >Practice meets the 1st Friday of every month Facilitation Mastery : Our >Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in >Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video >http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further >details.

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