[Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"
jlepps at pc.jaring.my
jlepps at pc.jaring.my
Sat Jun 16 13:07:42 PDT 2012
Randy, Bill, Marilyn, George, and others:
I don't think you can separate the Institutional
dynamic from the Movemental dynamic so
completely. The Christian movement has
institutional dimensions from the first --
remember the dispute between Peter and Paul about
inclusiveness relative to Gentiles? each dynamic
has authentic roles -- the institution embodies
and preserves wisdom, symbols, rituals, and
creeds which express that which activates the
movement. The Movement adds dynamism, relevance,
creativity and vitality to the understanding that
is expressed. Whenever each becomes dominant, perversions occur.
As the Order, we certainly had institutional
dynamics -- structures, understandings, rituals
-- aimed at preserving our vitality. IMHO,
sometime in the late 80's we thought it would
increase relevance to change some of the classic
elements to further the movemental dynamic. We
changed the daily office into something "more
inclusive," for example. It worked for awhile.
And that's the point: institutions preserve
things longer than "for awhile," even though the
forms of expression aren't immediatly clear.
Anyway, it's clear that the movemental dynamic is
where we are/were focused,and what's badly needed
now. But let's not throw out the baby with the bath.
John
At 04:29 AM 6/14/2012, you wrote:
>Bill,
>
>Christianity was a movement for about 300 years
>before it became institutionalized, so I would
>have to say that in most cases movements give
>birth to institutions, not the other way
>around. True, many of us came to the spirit
>movement from the local church, but for me at
>least, it was because the movement seemed a
>legitimate alternative to what wasn't working in
>the institution. I agree with George about the
>value of the symbolic life, the wisdom
>literature and the historic traditions, but what
>I see going on in within the institution of the
>church today is what we called
>"institutionalism" in the RS-1 church
>lecture. The church abdicates its mission of
>serving the world and decides to make building
>and preserving the institution its priority, and
>that's a perversion. Current examples of that
>for me--the UMC and the decisions of the General
>Conference regarding LGBT inclusiveness, and the
>Catholic Church with (1) the law suit filed by
>the Catholic bishops in the U.S. against the
>government regarding the health care law and
>contraception, and (2) the harassment of nuns in
>this country by the Vatican. I know there are
>obvious exceptions to what I am saying, but I
>fear my examples are indicative of the dominant trend.
>
>Whether a movement or an institution, religious
>or secular, its purpose must be to serve
>something greater than itself. If it can
>appease the powers that be, keep its
>constituents happy and balance the budget while
>doing that, fine. But it's when those
>institutional chores become more important than
>the mission to serve, that it becomes
>perverse. Even with corporations a lot of
>insightful business people are saying that the
>purpose of business is not to make a profit but
>to serve its stakeholders (not just its
>shareholders), and that profit is the way it
>keeps score. Like saying that breathing is
>necessary to sustain a human life but breathing
>is not the reason for that life to exist. Where
>the mission to serve gets lost or dumbed down,
>whether in the religious or secular movement or
>the religious or secular institution, the entity
>becomes at best irrelevant and at worst destructive.
>
>Randy
>
>
>
>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the
>course of being in the world; not to be
>supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires."
>-Martin Buber (adapted)
>From: Bill Parker <bparker175 at cox.net>
>To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:53 PM
>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists
>weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"
>George,
>
>I think your statement about the institutional
>church is an important insight that is easily
>overlooked in the midst of our frustration with
>the church. We make a mistake when we expect the
>institutional church to fulfill the criteria of
>the movemental church. That is not who or what
>they are. They have powers to contend with,
>budgets to meet, programs to conduct to keep
>their constituencies happy with the church as an
>institution. They are stationary in scope,
>intent, and form plus they often appear to be
>shallow, misguided and self serving. Yet, it is
>the source, the birthplace of the movemental religious.
>
>When you think about it, it is like a lot of us
>expect insurance companies to take
>responsibility for our healthcare system. That
>is not their job. That is the job of the society
>who wants to make sure people have access to
>healthcare. We can't expect that from a
>corporation, that is not what a corporation is.
>
>Anyway.....just thinking,
>
>Thanks,
>Bill
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:geowanda at earthlink.net>George Holcombe
>To: <mailto:dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>Colleague Dialogue
>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:31 AM
>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists
>weigh in,sounds like the "council of a lifetime"
>
>With Joe being a Methodist and Slicker a
>Presbyterian, we can look at ourselves as a
>movement that sprang from the institutional
>church, and there are others, even now. I think
>Joe was right when he said that the
>institutional church was dead some years
>ago. However, there is lots of life within the
>movemental church dynamic, and that includes all
>the religions, that springs from institutional
>religion. What's interesting about the
>institutional expressions of religion is that
>they hold on to the symbols and scriptures, the
>history, etc. even when they misinterpret and misrepresent them.
>George Holcombe14900 Yellowleaf Tr.Austin, TX
>78728Mobile 512/252-2756<mailto:geowanda at earthlink.net>geowanda at earthlink.net
>
>Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hope—you do
>not have anything to do with it. It just
>appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an
>alien—it just appeareth! You do not even know
>why you hope. How in the world could you hope
>when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews
>
>
>On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:52 PM, R Williams wrote:
>>In the midst of the turmoil the church is going
>>through this is one of the most hopeful pieces
>>I've seen. The primary question for me is, can
>>a church that has been so embedded in
>>institutional structures for so long
>>realistically be expected to reverse course and
>>again become a movemental presence?
>>
>>Randy
>>
>>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to
>>the course of being in the world; not to be
>>supported by it, but to bring it to reality as
>>it desires."-Martin Buber (adapted)
>>From: James Wiegel <<mailto:jfwiegel at yahoo.com>jfwiegel at yahoo.com>
>>To:
>>"<mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>oe at lists.wedgeblade.net"
>><<mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>;
>>Colleague Dialogue
>><<mailto:dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:42 PM
>>Subject: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh
>>in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"
>>http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-delegation-no-common-identity-for-umc/
>>
>>Jim Wiegel
>>
>>If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot
>>paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice
>>will be silenced. Vincent Van Gogh
>>
>>401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
>>+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel
>>jfwiegel at yahoo.com
>><http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/>www.partnersinparticipation.com
>>
>>Upcoming public course opportunities:
>>ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012
>>ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012
>>The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012
>>Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the
>>Technology of Participation program is
>>available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012
>>See short video
>>http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details.
>>
>>--- On Mon, 6/11/12, Timothy Wegner <twegner at swbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>From: Timothy Wegner <twegner at swbell.net>
>>Subject: [Dialogue] <http://wedgeblade.net/>wedgeblade.net is back up.
>>To: "oe at lists.wedgeblade.net"
>><oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>,
>>"dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net" <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>>Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:24 AM
>>
>>Wedgeblade.net has actually been up since
>>yesterday, but I just received a message from
>>our host that their backup restore is complete.
>>All is good. In fact, all is good even when the
>>website is down! Tim ---------- Sent from
>>AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email
>>_______________________________________________
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