[Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"

Fri Jun 15 14:33:50 PDT 2012

Hi John, Randy, George, Bill, Jim et al,

I have appreciated this exchange, and especially thank Jim W. for calling
my attention to the fine statement from the delegation from our New
England Conference.

Over the years voices from the northeast have often been "outliers" among
those of other Conferences (including the General Conference.) I thank
Bishop Jim Mathews (who served us in NE well back in the 1960s and was
long respected as an exemplar of wise pastoral leadership and just
administrative practices) for his legacy, echoed in the statement Jim
referenced.

Let's keep listening....

Grace and peace,

Marilyn

PS  Wonder if M. George or Maynard have insights to add?

On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 03:29:06 -0700 (PDT) R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com>
writes:
Bill,

Christianity was a movement for about 300 years before it became
institutionalized, so I would have to say that in most cases movements
give birth to institutions, not the other way around.  True, many of us
came to the spirit movement from the local church, but for me at least,
it was because the movement seemed a legitimate alternative to what
wasn't working in the institution.  I agree with George about the value
of the symbolic life, the wisdom literature and the historic traditions,
but what I see going on in within the institution of the church today is
what we called "institutionalism" in the RS-1 church lecture.  The church
abdicates its mission of serving the world and decides to make building
and preserving the institution its priority, and that's a perversion. 
Current examples of that for me--the UMC and the decisions of the General
Conference regarding LGBT inclusiveness, and the Catholic Church with (1)
the law suit filed by the Catholic bishops in the U.S. against the
government regarding the health care law and contraception, and (2) the
harassment of nuns in this country by the Vatican.  I know there are
obvious exceptions to what I am saying, but I fear my examples are
indicative of the dominant trend.

Whether a movement or an institution, religious or secular, its purpose
must be to serve something greater than itself.  If it can appease the
powers that be, keep its constituents happy and balance the budget while
doing that, fine.  But it's when those institutional chores become more
important than the mission to serve, that it becomes perverse.  Even with
corporations a lot of insightful business people are saying that the
purpose of business is not to make a profit but to serve its stakeholders
(not just its shareholders), and that profit is the way it keeps score. 
Like saying that breathing is necessary to sustain a human life but
breathing is not the reason for that life to exist.  Where the mission to
serve gets lost or dumbed down, whether in the religious or secular
movement or the religious or secular institution, the entity becomes at
best irrelevant and at worst destructive.

Randy

"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the
world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it
desires."
-Martin Buber (adapted)

From: Bill Parker <bparker175 at cox.net>
To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net> 
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the
"council of a lifetime"

George,

I think your statement about the institutional church is an important
insight that is easily overlooked in the midst of our frustration with
the church. We make a mistake when we expect the institutional church to
fulfill the criteria of the movemental church. That is not who or what
they are. They have powers to contend with, budgets to meet, programs to
conduct to keep their constituencies happy with the church as an
institution. They are stationary in scope, intent, and form plus they
often appear to be shallow, misguided and self serving. Yet, it is the
source, the birthplace of the movemental religious. 

When you think about it, it is like a lot of us expect insurance
companies to take responsibility for our healthcare system. That is not
their job. That is the job of the society who wants to make sure people
have access to healthcare. We can't expect that from a corporation, that
is not what a corporation is.

Anyway.....just thinking,

Thanks,
Bill 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: George Holcombe 
To: Colleague Dialogue 
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in,sounds like the
"council of a lifetime"

With Joe being a Methodist and Slicker a Presbyterian, we can look at
ourselves as a movement that sprang from the institutional church, and
there are others, even now.  I think Joe was right when he said that the
institutional church was dead some years ago.  However, there is lots of
life within the movemental church dynamic, and that includes all the
religions, that springs from institutional religion.  What's interesting
about the institutional expressions of religion is that they hold on to
the symbols and scriptures, the history, etc. even when they misinterpret
and misrepresent them. 
George Holcombe14900 Yellowleaf Tr.Austin, TX 78728Mobile
512/252-2756geowanda at earthlink.net

Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hope—you do not have anything to do
with it. It just appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an alien—it just
appeareth! You do not even know why you hope. How in the world could you
hope when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope?    ~Joseph W.
Mathews

On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:52 PM, R Williams wrote:
In the midst of the turmoil the church is going through this is one of
the most hopeful pieces I've seen.  The primary question for me is, can a
church that has been so embedded in institutional structures for so long
realistically be expected to reverse course and again become a movemental
presence?

Randy 

"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the
world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it
desires."-Martin Buber (adapted)

From: James Wiegel <jfwiegel at yahoo.com>
To: "oe at lists.wedgeblade.net" <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>; Colleague
Dialogue <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net> 
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the
"council of a lifetime"

http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-del
egation-no-common-identity-for-umc/

Jim Wiegel

If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means
paint, and that voice will be silenced. Vincent Van Gogh

401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel
jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com

Upcoming public course opportunities:
ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012
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The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012
Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation
program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16,
2012 
See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and
website for further details.

--- On Mon, 6/11/12, Timothy Wegner <twegner at swbell.net> wrote:

From: Timothy Wegner <twegner at swbell.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] wedgeblade.net is back up.
To: "oe at lists.wedgeblade.net" <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>,
"dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net" <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:24 AM

Wedgeblade.net has actually been up since yesterday, but I just received
a message from our host that their backup restore is complete. All is
good. In fact, all is good even when the website is down! Tim ----------
Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email
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