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Randy, Bill, Marilyn, George, and others:<br><br>
I don't think you can separate the Institutional dynamic from the
Movemental dynamic so completely. The Christian movement has
institutional dimensions from the first -- remember the dispute between
Peter and Paul about inclusiveness relative to Gentiles? each dynamic has
authentic roles -- the institution embodies and preserves wisdom,
symbols, rituals, and creeds which express that which activates the
movement. The Movement adds dynamism, relevance, creativity and vitality
to the understanding that is expressed. Whenever each becomes dominant,
perversions occur. <br><br>
As the Order, we certainly had institutional dynamics -- structures,
understandings, rituals -- aimed at preserving our vitality. IMHO,
sometime in the late 80's we thought it would increase relevance to
change some of the classic elements to further the movemental dynamic. We
changed the daily office into something "more inclusive," for
example. It worked for awhile. And that's the point: institutions
preserve things longer than "for awhile," even though the forms
of expression aren't immediatly clear.<br><br>
Anyway, it's clear that the movemental dynamic is where we are/were
focused,and what's badly needed now. But let's not throw out the baby
with the bath.<br><br>
John <br><br>
At 04:29 AM 6/14/2012, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Bill,<br>
<br>
Christianity was a movement for about 300 years before it became
institutionalized, so I would have to say that in most cases movements
give birth to institutions, not the other way around. True, many of
us came to the spirit movement from the local church, but for me at
least, it was because the movement seemed a legitimate alternative to
what wasn't working in the institution. I agree with George about
the value of the symbolic life, the wisdom literature and the historic
traditions, but what I see going on in within the institution of the
church today is what we called "institutionalism" in the RS-1
church lecture. The church abdicates its mission of serving the
world and decides to make building and preserving the institution its
priority, and that's a perversion. Current examples of that for
me--the UMC and the decisions of the General Conference regarding LGBT
inclusiveness, and the Catholic Church with (1) the law suit filed by the
Catholic bishops in the U.S. against the government regarding the health
care law and contraception, and (2) the harassment of nuns in this
country by the Vatican. I know there are obvious exceptions to what
I am saying, but I fear my examples are indicative of the dominant
trend.<br>
<br>
Whether a movement or an institution, religious or secular, its purpose
must be to serve something greater than itself. If it can appease
the powers that be, keep its constituents happy and balance the budget
while doing that, fine. But it's when those institutional chores
become more important than the mission to serve, that it becomes
perverse. Even with corporations a lot of insightful business
people are saying that the purpose of business is not to make a profit
but to serve its stakeholders (not just its shareholders), and that
profit is the way it keeps score. Like saying that breathing is
necessary to sustain a human life but breathing is not the reason for
that life to exist. Where the mission to serve gets lost or dumbed
down, whether in the religious or secular movement or the religious or
secular institution, the entity becomes at best irrelevant and at worst
destructive.<br>
<br>
Randy<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in
the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it
desires."<br>
-Martin Buber (adapted)<br>
<font size=2><b>From:</b> Bill Parker <bparker175@cox.net><br>
<b>To:</b> Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:53 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like
the "council of a lifetime"<br>
George,<br>
</font> <br>
<font size=2>I think your statement about the institutional church is an
important insight that is easily overlooked in the midst of our
frustration with the church. We make a mistake when we expect the
institutional church to fulfill the criteria of the movemental church.
That is not who or what they are. They have powers to contend with,
budgets to meet, programs to conduct to keep their constituencies happy
with the church as an institution. They are stationary in scope, intent,
and form plus they often appear to be shallow, misguided and self
serving. Yet, it is the source, the birthplace of the movemental
religious. <br>
</font> <br>
<font size=2>When you think about it, it is like a lot of us expect
insurance companies to take responsibility for our healthcare system.
That is not their job. That is the job of the society who wants to make
sure people have access to healthcare. We can't expect that from a
corporation, that is not what a corporation is.<br>
</font> <br>
<font size=2>Anyway.....just thinking,<br>
</font> <br>
<font size=2>Thanks,<br>
Bill</font> <br>
<dl>
<dd>----- Original Message ----- <br>
<dd>From:</b> <a href="mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net">George Holcombe</a>
<br>
<dd>To:</b> <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">Colleague
Dialogue</a> <br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:31 AM<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in,sounds like
the "council of a lifetime"<br><br>
<dd>With Joe being a Methodist and Slicker a Presbyterian, we can look at
ourselves as a movement that sprang from the institutional church, and
there are others, even now. I think Joe was right when he said that
the institutional church was dead some years ago. However, there is
lots of life within the movemental church dynamic, and that includes all
the religions, that springs from institutional religion. What's
interesting about the institutional expressions of religion is that they
hold on to the symbols and scriptures, the history, etc. even when they
misinterpret and misrepresent them. <br>
<dd>George Holcombe14900 Yellowleaf Tr.Austin, TX 78728Mobile
512/252-2756<a href="mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net">
geowanda@earthlink.net</a><br><br>
<dd>Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hope—you do not have anything to
do with it. It just appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an alien—it
just appeareth! You do not even know why you hope. How in the world could
you hope when there is absolutely nothing to justify any
hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews<br><br>
<br>
<dd>On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:52 PM, R Williams wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dd>In the midst of the turmoil the church is going through this is one
of the most hopeful pieces I've seen. The primary question for me
is, can a church that has been so embedded in institutional structures
for so long realistically be expected to reverse course and again become
a movemental presence?<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Randy <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being
in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it
desires."-Martin Buber (adapted)<br>
<dd><font size=2>From:</b> James Wiegel
<<a href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<dd>To:</b>
"<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>
"
<<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>
>; Colleague Dialogue
<<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">
dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>> <br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Monday, June 11, 2012 9:42 PM<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the
"council of a lifetime"<br>
</font>
<dd>
<a href="http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-delegation-no-common-identity-for-umc/" eudora="autourl">
http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-delegation-no-common-identity-for-umc/</a>
<br><br>
<dd>Jim Wiegel<br><br>
<dd>If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all
means paint, and that voice will be silenced. Vincent Van Gogh<br><br>
<dd>401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401<br>
<dd>+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel<br>
<dd>jfwiegel@yahoo.com
<a href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/">
www.partnersinparticipation.com</a><br><br>
<dd>Upcoming public course opportunities:<br>
<dd>ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012<br>
<dd>ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012<br>
<dd>The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012<br>
<dd>Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation
program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16,
2012 <br>
<dd>See short video
<a href="http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55" eudora="autourl">
http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55</a> and website for
further details.<br><br>
<dd>--- On Mon, 6/11/12, Timothy Wegner
<twegner@swbell.net></i></b> wrote:<br>
<dl><br>
<dd>From: Timothy Wegner <twegner@swbell.net><br>
<dd>Subject: [Dialogue]
<a href="http://wedgeblade.net/">wedgeblade.net</a> is back up.<br>
<dd>To: "oe@lists.wedgeblade.net"
<oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>,
"dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net"
<dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net><br>
<dd>Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:24 AM<br><br>
<dd>Wedgeblade.net has actually been up since yesterday, but I just
received a message from our host that their backup restore is complete.
All is good. In fact, all is good even when the website is down! Tim
---------- Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email
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