[Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"
jlepps at pc.jaring.my
jlepps at pc.jaring.my
Fri Jun 15 09:52:21 PDT 2012
Randy, Bill, George, and others who are interested:
I think you cannot easily separate the
institutional and the movemental dynamics. Seems
like Peter and Paul argued over institutional
matters -- the extent to which Gentiles could be
included, etc.Both dynamics are present all the
time in a tensional relationship that keeps
things interesting. Perversions happen when
either one dominates. As George says, the
legitimate function of the institution is to
preserve the history, rituals, and symbols that
awaken people to the movement. The role of the
movement is to bring creativity, vitality, and
relevance to the mission. We certainly had both
dynamics operative in OE. IMHO we tended to
neglect the institutional dynamics when we
abandoned the Daily Office, moved to Primary
Units, and ignored the Panchayat Document.
Clearly we intended to be the Movemental dynamic,
and we carried that along very well for awhile.
It would be interesting to speculate on the type
of Institution that is appropriate these days for
carrying the mission forward. That's why Gordon's
interest in the "organization" of the Occupy
Movement as a possible model for the future strikes me as very relevant.
John
At 04:29 AM 6/14/2012, you wrote:
>Bill,
>
>Christianity was a movement for about 300 years
>before it became institutionalized, so I would
>have to say that in most cases movements give
>birth to institutions, not the other way
>around. True, many of us came to the spirit
>movement from the local church, but for me at
>least, it was because the movement seemed a
>legitimate alternative to what wasn't working in
>the institution. I agree with George about the
>value of the symbolic life, the wisdom
>literature and the historic traditions, but what
>I see going on in within the institution of the
>church today is what we called
>"institutionalism" in the RS-1 church
>lecture. The church abdicates its mission of
>serving the world and decides to make building
>and preserving the institution its priority, and
>that's a perversion. Current examples of that
>for me--the UMC and the decisions of the General
>Conference regarding LGBT inclusiveness, and the
>Catholic Church with (1) the law suit filed by
>the Catholic bishops in the U.S. against the
>government regarding the health care law and
>contraception, and (2) the harassment of nuns in
>this country by the Vatican. I know there are
>obvious exceptions to what I am saying, but I
>fear my examples are indicative of the dominant trend.
>
>Whether a movement or an institution, religious
>or secular, its purpose must be to serve
>something greater than itself. If it can
>appease the powers that be, keep its
>constituents happy and balance the budget while
>doing that, fine. But it's when those
>institutional chores become more important than
>the mission to serve, that it becomes
>perverse. Even with corporations a lot of
>insightful business people are saying that the
>purpose of business is not to make a profit but
>to serve its stakeholders (not just its
>shareholders), and that profit is the way it
>keeps score. Like saying that breathing is
>necessary to sustain a human life but breathing
>is not the reason for that life to exist. Where
>the mission to serve gets lost or dumbed down,
>whether in the religious or secular movement or
>the religious or secular institution, the entity
>becomes at best irrelevant and at worst destructive.
>
>Randy
>
>
>
>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the
>course of being in the world; not to be
>supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires."
>-Martin Buber (adapted)
>From: Bill Parker <bparker175 at cox.net>
>To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:53 PM
>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists
>weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"
>George,
>
>I think your statement about the institutional
>church is an important insight that is easily
>overlooked in the midst of our frustration with
>the church. We make a mistake when we expect the
>institutional church to fulfill the criteria of
>the movemental church. That is not who or what
>they are. They have powers to contend with,
>budgets to meet, programs to conduct to keep
>their constituencies happy with the church as an
>institution. They are stationary in scope,
>intent, and form plus they often appear to be
>shallow, misguided and self serving. Yet, it is
>the source, the birthplace of the movemental religious.
>
>When you think about it, it is like a lot of us
>expect insurance companies to take
>responsibility for our healthcare system. That
>is not their job. That is the job of the society
>who wants to make sure people have access to
>healthcare. We can't expect that from a
>corporation, that is not what a corporation is.
>
>Anyway.....just thinking,
>
>Thanks,
>Bill
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:geowanda at earthlink.net>George Holcombe
>To: <mailto:dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>Colleague Dialogue
>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:31 AM
>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists
>weigh in,sounds like the "council of a lifetime"
>
>With Joe being a Methodist and Slicker a
>Presbyterian, we can look at ourselves as a
>movement that sprang from the institutional
>church, and there are others, even now. I think
>Joe was right when he said that the
>institutional church was dead some years
>ago. However, there is lots of life within the
>movemental church dynamic, and that includes all
>the religions, that springs from institutional
>religion. What's interesting about the
>institutional expressions of religion is that
>they hold on to the symbols and scriptures, the
>history, etc. even when they misinterpret and misrepresent them.
>George Holcombe14900 Yellowleaf Tr.Austin, TX
>78728Mobile 512/252-2756<mailto:geowanda at earthlink.net>geowanda at earthlink.net
>
>Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hope—you do
>not have anything to do with it. It just
>appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an
>alien—it just appeareth! You do not even know
>why you hope. How in the world could you hope
>when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews
>
>
>On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:52 PM, R Williams wrote:
>>In the midst of the turmoil the church is going
>>through this is one of the most hopeful pieces
>>I've seen. The primary question for me is, can
>>a church that has been so embedded in
>>institutional structures for so long
>>realistically be expected to reverse course and
>>again become a movemental presence?
>>
>>Randy
>>
>>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to
>>the course of being in the world; not to be
>>supported by it, but to bring it to reality as
>>it desires."-Martin Buber (adapted)
>>From: James Wiegel <<mailto:jfwiegel at yahoo.com>jfwiegel at yahoo.com>
>>To:
>>"<mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>oe at lists.wedgeblade.net"
>><<mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>;
>>Colleague Dialogue
>><<mailto:dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:42 PM
>>Subject: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh
>>in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"
>>http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-delegation-no-common-identity-for-umc/
>>
>>Jim Wiegel
>>
>>If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot
>>paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice
>>will be silenced. Vincent Van Gogh
>>
>>401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
>>+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel
>>jfwiegel at yahoo.com
>><http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/>www.partnersinparticipation.com
>>
>>Upcoming public course opportunities:
>>ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012
>>ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012
>>The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012
>>Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the
>>Technology of Participation program is
>>available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012
>>See short video
>>http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details.
>>
>>--- On Mon, 6/11/12, Timothy Wegner <twegner at swbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>From: Timothy Wegner <twegner at swbell.net>
>>Subject: [Dialogue] <http://wedgeblade.net/>wedgeblade.net is back up.
>>To: "oe at lists.wedgeblade.net"
>><oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>,
>>"dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net" <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>>Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:24 AM
>>
>>Wedgeblade.net has actually been up since
>>yesterday, but I just received a message from
>>our host that their backup restore is complete.
>>All is good. In fact, all is good even when the
>>website is down! Tim ---------- Sent from
>>AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email
>>_______________________________________________
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