Thank you Bill. This seems like a useful tool, as you described. Actually, I agree that Scripture would be first, and that where experience comes in, for me, is in validating at a personal level what I know from the Word. Tradition, for me, is the joy found in sharing hymns and prayers and Scripture with people who are living today and people who lived long ago-the exquisite ritual of speaking the same words that may be spoken in real time on the other side of the world or in a warp of time across centuries; tradition is the delight in the poetry of the Bible, the religious art of the ages, the sound of voices raised in songs of worship. And reason is what tells me that there is far too much historical evidence for my way of thinking about Christ than to abandon Him to being only a symbol for how to live life. That's not to say I don't appreciate and use the symbolic meaning of things He did and said (ref "Pick up your pallet and walk.") but neither does it negate the concept that actual, physical healing occurred. There are things way beyond our understanding that I am content to trust, and that faith has been shown to me to be reliable over and over again (my experience). It is not necessary to my belief that there are many brilliant minds who believe as I do, but it is nice that there are. It does not diminish my belief to know there are many brilliant minds who do not believe as I do. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account) And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders' E-Mail addresses when forwarding. NOTE: I won't be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails. From: William Salmon [mailto:wsalmon@cox.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 10:54 AM To: Susan Fertig <sfertig@blueskytech.us>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; Isobel and Jim Bishop <isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> Subject: Salmon: prayer reflection Susan, et al, Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one. This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants. The following paragraph will explain this process: The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service. (Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.) I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes. Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures. Thanks for sharing. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Fertig via OE<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Isobel and Jim Bishop<mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> ; Order EcumenicalCommunity<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. If we're operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I'm not likely to change anybody's mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe. Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of "shallowness" and "superstition." Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you'd all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith. My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account) And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders' E-Mail addresses when forwarding. NOTE: I won't be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails. From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM To: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com<mailto:jackcgilles@gmail.com>>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au<mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> Dear Folks, especially Jack, I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer....? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom....Just my observation from down here in Oz. Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories. I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful. Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it. ... and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation.... A word about prayer... Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation. Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney. Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc., Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint. All the best to y'all, and with grace, peace, and love, from Isobel. On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a 'download' arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn't open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well. Jack On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in? Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net ________________________________ _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net ________________________________ No virus found in this message. 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