Salmon: prayer reflection
Susan, et al, Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one. This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants. The following paragraph will explain this process: The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service. (Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.) I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes. Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures. Thanks for sharing. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Fertig via OE To: Isobel and Jim Bishop ; Order EcumenicalCommunity Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. If we're operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I'm not likely to change anybody's mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe. Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of "shallowness" and "superstition." Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you'd all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith. My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account) And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders' E-Mail addresses when forwarding. NOTE: I won't be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails. From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM To: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au Dear Folks, especially Jack, I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer..? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom..Just my observation from down here in Oz. Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories. I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful. Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it. . and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation.. A word about prayer. Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation. Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney. Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc., Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint. All the best to y'all, and with grace, peace, and love, from Isobel. On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a 'download' arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn't open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well. Jack On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in? Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13050 - Release Date: 09/20/16
Bill I also like the quadrilateral. I also contend the Experience is central- though everyone disagrees with me. After all, the Scripture records the experience of the biblical writers and the Tradition records the experience of the church. Bud
On Sep 20, 2016, at 3:54 PM, William Salmon via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Susan, et al, Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one. This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants. The following paragraph will explain this process: The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service. (Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.) I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes. Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures. Thanks for sharing. Bill
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Fertig via OE <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Isobel and Jim Bishop <mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> ; Order EcumenicalCommunity <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc.
If we’re operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I’m not likely to change anybody’s mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe.
Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of “shallowness” and “superstition.” Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you’d all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith. My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face.
Susan
Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account)
And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11
Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders’ E-Mail addresses when forwarding.
NOTE: I won’t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails.
From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net>] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM To: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com <mailto:jackcgilles@gmail.com>>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc.
Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au <mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au>
Dear Folks, especially Jack,
I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself
that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer….? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom….Just my observation from down here in Oz.
Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories.
I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful.
Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it.
… and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation….
A word about prayer… Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these
words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation.
Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney.
Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc.,
Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint.
All the best to y'all,
and with grace, peace, and love,
from Isobel.
On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a ‘download’ arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn’t open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well.
Jack
On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in?
Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net>
OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net>
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net>
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P.s. The church is not a building. The church is the body of people who gather to worship and who live to serve their neighbor. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account) And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders’ E-Mail addresses when forwarding. NOTE: I won’t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails. From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of H. A. Tillinghast via OE Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 11:25 AM To: William Salmon <wsalmon@cox.net>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Salmon: prayer reflection Bill I also like the quadrilateral. I also contend the Experience is central- though everyone disagrees with me. After all, the Scripture records the experience of the biblical writers and the Tradition records the experience of the church. Bud On Sep 20, 2016, at 3:54 PM, William Salmon via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Susan, et al, Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one. This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants. The following paragraph will explain this process: The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service. (Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.) I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes. Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures. Thanks for sharing. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Fertig via OE<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Isobel and Jim Bishop<mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> ; Order EcumenicalCommunity<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. If we’re operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I’m not likely to change anybody’s mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe. Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of “shallowness” and “superstition.” Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you’d all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith. My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account) And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders’ E-Mail addresses when forwarding. NOTE: I won’t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails. From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM To: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com<mailto:jackcgilles@gmail.com>>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au<mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> Dear Folks, especially Jack, I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer….? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom….Just my observation from down here in Oz. Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories. I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful. Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it. … and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation…. A word about prayer… Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation. Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney. Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc., Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint. All the best to y'all, and with grace, peace, and love, from Isobel. On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a ‘download’ arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn’t open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well. Jack On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in? Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net ________________________________ _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net ________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com/> Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13050 - Release Date: 09/20/16 _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
There was a time that Theology was regarded as the Queen of Science, but that lost ground when theologians began to look through telescopes and microscopes and the story of the universe began to change. Today theology and religion seem to be caught in a time warp trying to reinterpret the past for the “sake of the future.” Anyone know of where the science and theology community are exploring the present, and perhaps together? Rob Work posted a thought of his from several years back on his Facebook page today that may be a starting point. "What a stunning mystery! To be a conscious living being as part of a 13.8 billion year old universe with billions of more years to create, explore and experience! Who could ever have dreamed or made this up? And with only one thing to do – love it all, moment by moment, situation by situation, being by being. But how to do that with wisdom and skillful means, that is the question, the challenge, the calling." I wrote this on FB three years ago today. Still my experience. What do you think?” George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Sep 20, 2016, at 10:24 AM, H. A. Tillinghast via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Bill I also like the quadrilateral. I also contend the Experience is central- though everyone disagrees with me. After all, the Scripture records the experience of the biblical writers and the Tradition records the experience of the church.
Bud
On Sep 20, 2016, at 3:54 PM, William Salmon via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Susan, et al, Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one. This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants. The following paragraph will explain this process: The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service. (Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.) I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes. Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures. Thanks for sharing. Bill
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Fertig via OE <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Isobel and Jim Bishop <mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> ; Order EcumenicalCommunity <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc.
If we’re operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I’m not likely to change anybody’s mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe.
Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of “shallowness” and “superstition.” Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you’d all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith. My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face.
Susan
Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account)
And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11
Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders’ E-Mail addresses when forwarding.
NOTE: I won’t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails.
From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net>] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM To: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com <mailto:jackcgilles@gmail.com>>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc.
Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au <mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au>
Dear Folks, especially Jack,
I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself
that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer….? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom….Just my observation from down here in Oz.
Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories.
I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful.
Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it.
… and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation….
A word about prayer… Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these
words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation.
Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney.
Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc.,
Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint.
All the best to y'all,
and with grace, peace, and love,
from Isobel.
On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a ‘download’ arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn’t open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well.
Jack
On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in?
Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net>
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Dear George, Yes to: "And with only one thing to do – love it all, moment by moment, situation by situation, being by being. But how to do that with wisdom and skillful means, that is the question, the challenge, the calling.” For me, side be side with this imperative is the cultivation of the experience of ever being loved. Watching my new granddaughter nurse has convinced me that god is a women! Which is another metaphor to explore in the process of letting go a two-story patriarchal cosmos. For those self identified very progressive males who harp on Hillary, I simply ask them if their progressiveness includes ‘god is a woman’. Oh, not quite that progressive? Of course I am secure in my sense that the cosmic wonder is beneath and beyond gender. My own attention is drawn to my recurring experience of being loved by the ‘cosmic compassion’. Whether this comes in the form of a great affirmation or a great disillusionment, I am keenly aware of the sheer gift of being conscious of being given a life to live. Period. And ever grateful I am for that! Cradled in ‘this’ - this love - I choose how I will ‘love it all’ in this one brief, yet eternal moment. Ken Ken Fisher 1070 Elizabeth Street Box 75 Sharbot Lake ON K0H 2P0 613.279.1902 kenfisher1942@gmail.com Ken Fisher @KandPtrail On Sep 22, 2016, at 9:24 AM, George Holcombe via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: There was a time that Theology was regarded as the Queen of Science, but that lost ground when theologians began to look through telescopes and microscopes and the story of the universe began to change. Today theology and religion seem to be caught in a time warp trying to reinterpret the past for the “sake of the future.” Anyone know of where the science and theology community are exploring the present, and perhaps together? Rob Work posted a thought of his from several years back on his Facebook page today that may be a starting point. "What a stunning mystery! To be a conscious living being as part of a 13.8 billion year old universe with billions of more years to create, explore and experience! Who could ever have dreamed or made this up? And with only one thing to do – love it all, moment by moment, situation by situation, being by being. But how to do that with wisdom and skillful means, that is the question, the challenge, the calling." I wrote this on FB three years ago today. Still my experience. What do you think?” George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com <mailto:geowanda1@me.com> "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Sep 20, 2016, at 10:24 AM, H. A. Tillinghast via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Bill I also like the quadrilateral. I also contend the Experience is central- though everyone disagrees with me. After all, the Scripture records the experience of the biblical writers and the Tradition records the experience of the church.
Bud
On Sep 20, 2016, at 3:54 PM, William Salmon via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Susan, et al, Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one. This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants. The following paragraph will explain this process: The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service. (Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.) I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes. Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures. Thanks for sharing. Bill
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Fertig via OE <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Isobel and Jim Bishop <mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> ; Order EcumenicalCommunity <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc.
If we’re operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I’m not likely to change anybody’s mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe.
Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of “shallowness” and “superstition.” Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you’d all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith. My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face.
Susan
Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account)
And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11
Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders’ E-Mail addresses when forwarding.
NOTE: I won’t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails.
From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net>] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM To: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com <mailto:jackcgilles@gmail.com>>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc.
Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au <mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au>
Dear Folks, especially Jack,
I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself
that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer….? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom….Just my observation from down here in Oz.
Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories.
I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful.
Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it.
… and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation….
A word about prayer… Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these
words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation.
Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney.
Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc.,
Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint.
All the best to y'all,
and with grace, peace, and love,
from Isobel.
On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a ‘download’ arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn’t open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well.
Jack
On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in?
Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net>
OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net>
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<>No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/> Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13050 - Release Date: 09/20/16
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George, Sage advice. I tried to send this related article earlier, but not sure it made in onto the e-list. Colleagues, Here’s a great New York Magazine (long) article on faith and mindfulness in the digital age by Andrew Sullivan. Here’s a couple of quotes: “The reason we live in a culture increasingly without faith is not because science has somehow disproved the unprovable, but because the white noise of secularism has removed the very stillness in which it might endure or be reborn.” “If the churches came to understand that the greatest threat to faith today is not hedonism but distraction, perhaps they might begin to appeal anew to a frazzled digital generation.” http://nymag.com/selectall/2016/09/andrew-sullivan-technology-almost-killed-... After reading this, “Grace and Peace” seems less of a throw away ritual salutation and more like a fundamental grasp of what it means to be really alive. Grace and Peace, Stuart Hampton From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of George Holcombe via OE Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 8:25 AM To: ICA/OE List Serves; ICA/OE List Serves Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Salmon: prayer reflection There was a time that Theology was regarded as the Queen of Science, but that lost ground when theologians began to look through telescopes and microscopes and the story of the universe began to change. Today theology and religion seem to be caught in a time warp trying to reinterpret the past for the “sake of the future.” Anyone know of where the science and theology community are exploring the present, and perhaps together? Rob Work posted a thought of his from several years back on his Facebook page today that may be a starting point. "What a stunning mystery! To be a conscious living being as part of a 13.8 billion year old universe with billions of more years to create, explore and experience! Who could ever have dreamed or made this up? And with only one thing to do – love it all, moment by moment, situation by situation, being by being. But how to do that with wisdom and skillful means, that is the question, the challenge, the calling." I wrote this on FB three years ago today. Still my experience. What do you think?” George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com<mailto:geowanda1@me.com> "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley On Sep 20, 2016, at 10:24 AM, H. A. Tillinghast via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Bill I also like the quadrilateral. I also contend the Experience is central- though everyone disagrees with me. After all, the Scripture records the experience of the biblical writers and the Tradition records the experience of the church. Bud On Sep 20, 2016, at 3:54 PM, William Salmon via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Susan, et al, Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one. This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants. The following paragraph will explain this process: The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service. (Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.) I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes. Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures. Thanks for sharing. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Fertig via OE<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Isobel and Jim Bishop<mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> ; Order EcumenicalCommunity<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. If we’re operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I’m not likely to change anybody’s mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe. Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of “shallowness” and “superstition.” Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you’d all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith. My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account) And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders’ E-Mail addresses when forwarding. NOTE: I won’t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails. From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM To: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com<mailto:jackcgilles@gmail.com>>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au<mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> Dear Folks, especially Jack, I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer….? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom….Just my observation from down here in Oz. Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories. I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful. Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it. … and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation…. A word about prayer… Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation. Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney. Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc., Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint. All the best to y'all, and with grace, peace, and love, from Isobel. On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a ‘download’ arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn’t open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well. Jack On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in? Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net ________________________________ _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net ________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com/> Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13050 - Release Date: 09/20/16 _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
George Holcombe wrote: Anyone know of where the science and theology community are exploring the present, and perhaps together? I doubt this is what you meant, George, but here are some discussions about science and theology. I’ve never seen a conflict between science and religion, and many scientists just find that in the end, science does not have final answers. It is not unusual to find scientists who believe in God. Check out Caroline Crocker, Free to Think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiw3xhywkzM Or Denton’s Evolution: Still a Theory in Crisis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvxSpUhVfmM Or David Berlinski’s thoughts on Science and Religion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyxUwaq00Rc or his thoughts on Evolution. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6ElA0--JNg Or the irrepressible Ben Stein hosting a film with multiple speakers on the issue of academic freedom (or the suppression thereof). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgSP-VukJgg Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account) And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders’ E-Mail addresses when forwarding. NOTE: I won’t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails. From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Hampton, Stuart via OE Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 10:11 AM To: George Holcombe <geowanda1@me.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; ICA/OE List Serves <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Salmon: prayer reflection George, Sage advice. I tried to send this related article earlier, but not sure it made in onto the e-list. Colleagues, Here’s a great New York Magazine (long) article on faith and mindfulness in the digital age by Andrew Sullivan. Here’s a couple of quotes: “The reason we live in a culture increasingly without faith is not because science has somehow disproved the unprovable, but because the white noise of secularism has removed the very stillness in which it might endure or be reborn.” “If the churches came to understand that the greatest threat to faith today is not hedonism but distraction, perhaps they might begin to appeal anew to a frazzled digital generation.” http://nymag.com/selectall/2016/09/andrew-sullivan-technology-almost-killed-... After reading this, “Grace and Peace” seems less of a throw away ritual salutation and more like a fundamental grasp of what it means to be really alive. Grace and Peace, Stuart Hampton From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of George Holcombe via OE Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 8:25 AM To: ICA/OE List Serves; ICA/OE List Serves Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Salmon: prayer reflection There was a time that Theology was regarded as the Queen of Science, but that lost ground when theologians began to look through telescopes and microscopes and the story of the universe began to change. Today theology and religion seem to be caught in a time warp trying to reinterpret the past for the “sake of the future.” Anyone know of where the science and theology community are exploring the present, and perhaps together? Rob Work posted a thought of his from several years back on his Facebook page today that may be a starting point. "What a stunning mystery! To be a conscious living being as part of a 13.8 billion year old universe with billions of more years to create, explore and experience! Who could ever have dreamed or made this up? And with only one thing to do – love it all, moment by moment, situation by situation, being by being. But how to do that with wisdom and skillful means, that is the question, the challenge, the calling." I wrote this on FB three years ago today. Still my experience. What do you think?” George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com<mailto:geowanda1@me.com> "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley On Sep 20, 2016, at 10:24 AM, H. A. Tillinghast via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Bill I also like the quadrilateral. I also contend the Experience is central- though everyone disagrees with me. After all, the Scripture records the experience of the biblical writers and the Tradition records the experience of the church. Bud On Sep 20, 2016, at 3:54 PM, William Salmon via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Susan, et al, Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one. This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants. The following paragraph will explain this process: The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service. (Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.) I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes. Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures. Thanks for sharing. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Fertig via OE<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Isobel and Jim Bishop<mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> ; Order EcumenicalCommunity<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. If we’re operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I’m not likely to change anybody’s mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe. Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of “shallowness” and “superstition.” Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you’d all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith. My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account) And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders’ E-Mail addresses when forwarding. NOTE: I won’t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails. From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM To: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com<mailto:jackcgilles@gmail.com>>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au<mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> Dear Folks, especially Jack, I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer….? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom….Just my observation from down here in Oz. Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories. I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful. Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it. … and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation…. A word about prayer… Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation. Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney. Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc., Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint. All the best to y'all, and with grace, peace, and love, from Isobel. On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a ‘download’ arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn’t open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well. Jack On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in? Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net ________________________________ _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net ________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com/> Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13050 - Release Date: 09/20/16 _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Not sure what you are looking for, but might check out Living the Questions web site. They have a dvd based course called Painting the Stars: Science, Religion, and an Evolving Faith Troy Jarvis From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of George Holcombe via OE Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 8:25 AM To: ICA/OE List Serves; ICA/OE List Serves Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Salmon: prayer reflection There was a time that Theology was regarded as the Queen of Science, but that lost ground when theologians began to look through telescopes and microscopes and the story of the universe began to change. Today theology and religion seem to be caught in a time warp trying to reinterpret the past for the “sake of the future.” Anyone know of where the science and theology community are exploring the present, and perhaps together? Rob Work posted a thought of his from several years back on his Facebook page today that may be a starting point. "What a stunning mystery! To be a conscious living being as part of a 13.8 billion year old universe with billions of more years to create, explore and experience! Who could ever have dreamed or made this up? And with only one thing to do – love it all, moment by moment, situation by situation, being by being. But how to do that with wisdom and skillful means, that is the question, the challenge, the calling." I wrote this on FB three years ago today. Still my experience. What do you think?” George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley On Sep 20, 2016, at 10:24 AM, H. A. Tillinghast via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Bill I also like the quadrilateral. I also contend the Experience is central- though everyone disagrees with me. After all, the Scripture records the experience of the biblical writers and the Tradition records the experience of the church. Bud On Sep 20, 2016, at 3:54 PM, William Salmon via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Susan, et al, Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one. This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants. The following paragraph will explain this process: The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service. (Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.) I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes. Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures. Thanks for sharing. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Susan Fertig via OE To: <mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> Isobel and Jim Bishop ; <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Order EcumenicalCommunity Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. If we’re operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I’m not likely to change anybody’s mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe. Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of “shallowness” and “superstition.” Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you’d all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith. My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account) And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders’ E-Mail addresses when forwarding. NOTE: I won’t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails. From: OE [ <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM To: Jack Gilles < <mailto:jackcgilles@gmail.com> jackcgilles@gmail.com>; Order Ecumenical Community < <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. Isobel and Jim Bishop <mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au Dear Folks, especially Jack, I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer….? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom….Just my observation from down here in Oz. Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories. I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful. Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it. … and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation…. A word about prayer… Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation. Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney. Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc., Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint. All the best to y'all, and with grace, peace, and love, from Isobel. On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE < <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a ‘download’ arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn’t open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well. Jack On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE < <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in? Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _____ _______________________________________________ OE mailing list <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - <http://www.avg.com/> www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13050 - Release Date: 09/20/16 _______________________________________________ OE mailing list <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
This course is interesting. And worth checking out. But it is aimed at those who are new to a concept of an evolving creation / creator.
On Sep 23, 2016, at 12:13 PM, Troy Jarvis via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Not sure what you are looking for, but might check out Living the Questions web site. They have a dvd based course called Painting the Stars: Science, Religion, and an Evolving Faith
Troy Jarvis
Hi George, Many groups, in the footsteps of Teilhard de Chardin are exploring theology/science relationship in the context of our 13.8 year universe journey--Christian, interfaith. In the Presbyterian Church (USA), the group that has been doing this is the Presbyterian Association for Science, Technology and the Christian Faith (PASTCF). This group helped initiate a document called "Affirmation of Creation" which was passed at our last General Assembly. This document, as well as other resources, can be found at the PASTCF website: www.pastcf.org Thomas Berry's books. I just came across a review of a book The God Particle: God-Talk in a "Big Bang" World, by R. Kirby Godsey, Mercer University Press, Macon GA, 112 pp. Haven't read it, so I don't know particulars... The Evolution Dialogues--Science, Christianity, and the Quest for Understanding, American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS--Advancing Science, Serving Society), ed. by Dr. James B. Miller Darwin, Divinity, and the Dance of the Cosmos, an Ecological Christianity, by Bruce Sanguin Thank God for Evolution, by Michael Dowd Many others... Ellie Stock elliestock@aol.com -----Original Message----- From: George Holcombe via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: ICA/OE List Serves <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; ICA/OE List Serves <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Thu, Sep 22, 2016 8:25 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Oe List ...] Salmon: prayer reflection There was a time that Theology was regarded as the Queen of Science, but that lost ground when theologians began to look through telescopes and microscopes and the story of the universe began to change. Today theology and religion seem to be caught in a time warp trying to reinterpret the past for the “sake of the future.” Anyone know of where the science and theology community are exploring the present, and perhaps together? Rob Work posted a thought of his from several years back on his Facebook page today that may be a starting point. "What a stunning mystery! To be a conscious living being as part of a 13.8 billion year old universe with billions of more years to create, explore and experience! Who could ever have dreamed or made this up? And with only one thing to do – love it all, moment by moment, situation by situation, being by being. But how to do that with wisdom and skillful means, that is the question, the challenge, the calling." I wrote this on FB three years ago today. Still my experience. What do you think?” George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley On Sep 20, 2016, at 10:24 AM, H. A. Tillinghast via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Bill I also like the quadrilateral. I also contend the Experience is central- though everyone disagrees with me. After all, the Scripture records the experience of the biblical writers and the Tradition records the experience of the church. Bud On Sep 20, 2016, at 3:54 PM, William Salmon via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Susan, et al, Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one. This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants. The following paragraph will explain this process: The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service. (Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.) I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes. Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures. Thanks for sharing. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Fertig via OE To: Isobel and Jim Bishop ; Order EcumenicalCommunity Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. If we’re operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I’m not likely to change anybody’s mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe. Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of “shallowness” and “superstition.” Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you’d all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith. My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account) And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders’ E-Mail addresses when forwarding. NOTE: I won’t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails. From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM To: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au Dear Folks, especially Jack, I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer….? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom….Just my observation from down here in Oz. Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories. I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful. Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it. … and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation…. A word about prayer… Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation. Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney. Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc., Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint. All the best to y'all, and with grace, peace, and love, from Isobel. On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a ‘download’ arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn’t open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well. Jack On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in? Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13050 - Release Date: 09/20/16 _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Remember a video, I believe introduced at a 1986 /Chicago gathering, based on the book The Global Brain? (Lovelock?) It was probably my earliest introduction to the Gaia Theory and that evolution continues in all living things, including the living planet and , its brain, Humanity. As I recall, when humans' brains approached eleven billion cells, a leap of consciousness took place. The prediction was that as we approach eleven billion brains on the planet, another great leap of collective conscious will take place. I enjoyed Michael Dowd and Connie Barlow's online course, "Thank God for Evolution." He's a theologian; she's a scientist In 2014, I enjoyed reading a book called Paradoxology: Spirituality in a Quantum Universe by Miriam Therese Winter, a Medical Mission Sister and professor at Hartford Seminary, Hartford, Connecticut. I've enjoyed online courses of Craig Hamilton and Ken Wilbur, and their dialogue with Andrew Cohen, until he dropped out of public life and went silent. They are from from and eastern, not Christian, background, though. Thank you to all who have responded to these e-mails. Grace, peace, love, Jann McGuire -----Original Message----- From: Ellie Stock via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: geowanda1 <geowanda1@me.com>; dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>; oe <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Fri, Sep 23, 2016 2:28 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Oe List ...] Salmon: prayer reflection Hi George, Many groups, in the footsteps of Teilhard de Chardin are exploring theology/science relationship in the context of our 13.8 year universe journey--Christian, interfaith. In the Presbyterian Church (USA), the group that has been doing this is the Presbyterian Association for Science, Technology and the Christian Faith (PASTCF). This group helped initiate a document called "Affirmation of Creation" which was passed at our last General Assembly. This document, as well as other resources, can be found at the PASTCF website: www.pastcf.org Thomas Berry's books. I just came across a review of a book The God Particle: God-Talk in a "Big Bang" World, by R. Kirby Godsey, Mercer University Press, Macon GA, 112 pp. Haven't read it, so I don't know particulars... The Evolution Dialogues--Science, Christianity, and the Quest for Understanding, American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS--Advancing Science, Serving Society), ed. by Dr. James B. Miller Darwin, Divinity, and the Dance of the Cosmos, an Ecological Christianity, by Bruce Sanguin Thank God for Evolution, by Michael Dowd Many others... Ellie Stock elliestock@aol.com -----Original Message----- From: George Holcombe via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: ICA/OE List Serves <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; ICA/OE List Serves <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Thu, Sep 22, 2016 8:25 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Oe List ...] Salmon: prayer reflection There was a time that Theology was regarded as the Queen of Science, but that lost ground when theologians began to look through telescopes and microscopes and the story of the universe began to change. Today theology and religion seem to be caught in a time warp trying to reinterpret the past for the “sake of the future.” Anyone know of where the science and theology community are exploring the present, and perhaps together? Rob Work posted a thought of his from several years back on his Facebook page today that may be a starting point. "What a stunning mystery! To be a conscious living being as part of a 13.8 billion year old universe with billions of more years to create, explore and experience! Who could ever have dreamed or made this up? And with only one thing to do – love it all, moment by moment, situation by situation, being by being. But how to do that with wisdom and skillful means, that is the question, the challenge, the calling." I wrote this on FB three years ago today. Still my experience. What do you think?” George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley On Sep 20, 2016, at 10:24 AM, H. A. Tillinghast via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Bill I also like the quadrilateral. I also contend the Experience is central- though everyone disagrees with me. After all, the Scripture records the experience of the biblical writers and the Tradition records the experience of the church. Bud On Sep 20, 2016, at 3:54 PM, William Salmon via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Susan, et al, Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one. This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants. The following paragraph will explain this process: The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service. (Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.) I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes. Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures. Thanks for sharing. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Fertig via OE To: Isobel and Jim Bishop ; Order EcumenicalCommunity Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. If we’re operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I’m not likely to change anybody’s mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe. Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of “shallowness” and “superstition.” Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you’d all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith. My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account) And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders’ E-Mail addresses when forwarding. NOTE: I won’t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails. From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM To: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au Dear Folks, especially Jack, I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer….? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom….Just my observation from down here in Oz. Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories. I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful. Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it. … and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation…. A word about prayer… Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation. Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney. Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc., Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint. All the best to y'all, and with grace, peace, and love, from Isobel. On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a ‘download’ arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn’t open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well. Jack On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in? Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13050 - Release Date: 09/20/16 _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Hello folks, In our Church community we have viewed all the Living the questions series so far- and at the moment we are watching Painting The Stars- which I highly recommend. We also watched and discussed Thank God For Evolution with Michael Dowd and his wife Connie Dowd. I agree with those who have spoken of the real connection between religion and science - for many just a natural organic reality. I remember the story Joe used to share - how three old men - were looking down a well- one a Buddhist one a Hindu, one a Christian - and saying to each other - we come to the well as different traditions and yet we all drink the same water - as in we all receive our spiritual nurture from the one source.. Mayb this helps to connect science and religion- for me it does - I don't ask you to agree with me though. In peace and respectful love, Isobel Sent from my iPhone
On 24 Sep 2016, at 8:54 am, via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Remember a video, I believe introduced at a 1986 /Chicago gathering, based on the book The Global Brain? (Lovelock?) It was probably my earliest introduction to the Gaia Theory and that evolution continues in all living things, including the living planet and , its brain, Humanity. As I recall, when humans' brains approached eleven billion cells, a leap of consciousness took place. The prediction was that as we approach eleven billion brains on the planet, another great leap of collective conscious will take place.
I enjoyed Michael Dowd and Connie Barlow's online course, "Thank God for Evolution." He's a theologian; she's a scientist
In 2014, I enjoyed reading a book called Paradoxology: Spirituality in a Quantum Universe by Miriam Therese Winter, a Medical Mission Sister and professor at Hartford Seminary, Hartford, Connecticut.
I've enjoyed online courses of Craig Hamilton and Ken Wilbur, and their dialogue with Andrew Cohen, until he dropped out of public life and went silent. They are from from and eastern, not Christian, background, though.
Thank you to all who have responded to these e-mails.
Grace, peace, love,
Jann McGuire
-----Original Message----- From: Ellie Stock via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: geowanda1 <geowanda1@me.com>; dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>; oe <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Fri, Sep 23, 2016 2:28 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Oe List ...] Salmon: prayer reflection
Hi George,
Many groups, in the footsteps of Teilhard de Chardin are exploring theology/science relationship in the context of our 13.8 year universe journey--Christian, interfaith.
In the Presbyterian Church (USA), the group that has been doing this is the Presbyterian Association for Science, Technology and the Christian Faith (PASTCF). This group helped initiate a document called "Affirmation of Creation" which was passed at our last General Assembly. This document, as well as other resources, can be found at the PASTCF website: www.pastcf.org
Thomas Berry's books.
I just came across a review of a book The God Particle: God-Talk in a "Big Bang" World, by R. Kirby Godsey, Mercer University Press, Macon GA, 112 pp. Haven't read it, so I don't know particulars...
The Evolution Dialogues--Science, Christianity, and the Quest for Understanding, American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS--Advancing Science, Serving Society), ed. by Dr. James B. Miller
Darwin, Divinity, and the Dance of the Cosmos, an Ecological Christianity, by Bruce Sanguin
Thank God for Evolution, by Michael Dowd
Many others...
Ellie Stock elliestock@aol.com
-----Original Message----- From: George Holcombe via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: ICA/OE List Serves <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; ICA/OE List Serves <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Thu, Sep 22, 2016 8:25 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Oe List ...] Salmon: prayer reflection
There was a time that Theology was regarded as the Queen of Science, but that lost ground when theologians began to look through telescopes and microscopes and the story of the universe began to change. Today theology and religion seem to be caught in a time warp trying to reinterpret the past for the “sake of the future.” Anyone know of where the science and theology community are exploring the present, and perhaps together? Rob Work posted a thought of his from several years back on his Facebook page today that may be a starting point. "What a stunning mystery! To be a conscious living being as part of a 13.8 billion year old universe with billions of more years to create, explore and experience! Who could ever have dreamed or made this up? And with only one thing to do – love it all, moment by moment, situation by situation, being by being. But how to do that with wisdom and skillful means, that is the question, the challenge, the calling." I wrote this on FB three years ago today. Still my experience. What do you think?”
George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com
"Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Sep 20, 2016, at 10:24 AM, H. A. Tillinghast via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Bill I also like the quadrilateral. I also contend the Experience is central- though everyone disagrees with me. After all, the Scripture records the experience of the biblical writers and the Tradition records the experience of the church.
Bud
On Sep 20, 2016, at 3:54 PM, William Salmon via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Susan, et al, Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one. This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants. The following paragraph will explain this process: The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service. (Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.) I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes. Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures. Thanks for sharing. Bill
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Fertig via OE To: Isobel and Jim Bishop ; Order EcumenicalCommunity Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc.
If we’re operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I’m not likely to change anybody’s mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe.
Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of “shallowness” and “superstition.” Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you’d all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith. My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face.
Susan
Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account)
And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11
Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders’ E-Mail addresses when forwarding.
NOTE: I won’t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails.
From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM To: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc.
Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au
Dear Folks, especially Jack,
I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself
that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer….? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom….Just my observation from down here in Oz.
Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories.
I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful.
Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it.
… and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation….
A word about prayer… Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these
words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation.
Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney.
Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc.,
Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint.
All the best to y'all,
and with grace, peace, and love,
from Isobel.
On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a ‘download’ arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn’t open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well.
Jack
On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in?
Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13050 - Release Date: 09/20/16 _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Thanks everyone for your contributions. I am so glad to have this conversation tool available again! Bill, I took your contribution on prayer and language to a meeting I attended last night, since it was quite apropos to our conversation of the evening. Folks really appreciated the input. Doris Hahn On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 10:54 AM, William Salmon via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Susan, *et al*, Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one. This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants. The following paragraph will explain this process: *The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service.* (Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.) I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes. Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures. Thanks for sharing. Bill
------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------
----- Original Message ----- *From:* Susan Fertig via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *To:* Isobel and Jim Bishop <isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> ; Order EcumenicalCommunity <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Sent:* Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc.
If we’re operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I’m not likely to change anybody’s mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe.
Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of “shallowness” and “superstition.”
Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you’d all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith.
My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face.
*Susan*
Susan Fertig-Dykes
(personal email account)
*And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11*
Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses;
delete senders’ E-Mail addresses when forwarding.
NOTE: I won’t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails.
*From:* OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] *On Behalf Of *Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE *Sent:* Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM *To:* Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com>; Order Ecumenical Community < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc.
Isobel and Jim Bishop
isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au
Dear Folks, especially Jack,
I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself
that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer….? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom….Just my observation from down here in Oz.
Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories.
I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful.
Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it.
… and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation….
A word about prayer… Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these
words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation.
Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney.
Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc.,
Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint.
All the best to y'all,
and with grace, peace, and love,
from Isobel.
On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a ‘download’ arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn’t open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well.
Jack
On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in?
Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
------------------------------
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
------------------------------
No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13050 - Release Date: 09/20/16
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Thank you Bill. This seems like a useful tool, as you described. Actually, I agree that Scripture would be first, and that where experience comes in, for me, is in validating at a personal level what I know from the Word. Tradition, for me, is the joy found in sharing hymns and prayers and Scripture with people who are living today and people who lived long ago-the exquisite ritual of speaking the same words that may be spoken in real time on the other side of the world or in a warp of time across centuries; tradition is the delight in the poetry of the Bible, the religious art of the ages, the sound of voices raised in songs of worship. And reason is what tells me that there is far too much historical evidence for my way of thinking about Christ than to abandon Him to being only a symbol for how to live life. That's not to say I don't appreciate and use the symbolic meaning of things He did and said (ref "Pick up your pallet and walk.") but neither does it negate the concept that actual, physical healing occurred. There are things way beyond our understanding that I am content to trust, and that faith has been shown to me to be reliable over and over again (my experience). It is not necessary to my belief that there are many brilliant minds who believe as I do, but it is nice that there are. It does not diminish my belief to know there are many brilliant minds who do not believe as I do. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account) And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders' E-Mail addresses when forwarding. NOTE: I won't be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails. From: William Salmon [mailto:wsalmon@cox.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 10:54 AM To: Susan Fertig <sfertig@blueskytech.us>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; Isobel and Jim Bishop <isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> Subject: Salmon: prayer reflection Susan, et al, Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one. This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants. The following paragraph will explain this process: The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service. (Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.) I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes. Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures. Thanks for sharing. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Fertig via OE<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Isobel and Jim Bishop<mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> ; Order EcumenicalCommunity<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. If we're operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I'm not likely to change anybody's mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe. Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of "shallowness" and "superstition." Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you'd all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith. My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes (personal email account) And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 Protect against email address harvesting: Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses; delete senders' E-Mail addresses when forwarding. NOTE: I won't be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails. From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM To: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com<mailto:jackcgilles@gmail.com>>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au<mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> Dear Folks, especially Jack, I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer....? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom....Just my observation from down here in Oz. Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories. I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful. Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it. ... and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation.... A word about prayer... Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation. Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney. Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc., Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint. All the best to y'all, and with grace, peace, and love, from Isobel. On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a 'download' arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn't open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well. Jack On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in? Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net ________________________________ _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net ________________________________ No virus found in this message. 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participants (12)
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Doris Hahn via OE -
Ellie Stock via OE
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George Holcombe via OE
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H. A. Tillinghast via OE
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Hampton, Stuart via OE
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Isobel Bishop via OE
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Ken Fisher via OE
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Susan Fertig via OE
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Troy Jarvis via OE
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via OE
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Wesson Gaige via OE
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William Salmon via OE