[Oe List ...] A review of Charles Taylor's "The Secular Society"

Wed Jul 10 06:43:29 PDT 2013

This is a beautiful reflection Randy.

Herman

On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 6:09 AM, R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Friends,
>
> I'm fresh off having finished Dowd's book.  Like most writers on this
> subject these days, from my perspective he gets a lot of it right, a lot of
> it wrong, ignores a lot of what I consider pertinent, and overall raises
> some very good questions to ponder.  I have no interest in, nor basis for,
> defending Dowd, but here are some of his points that particularly
> resonated with me.
>
> For one, David, I believe he does exactly what you suggest in your last
> statement, he reconciles the conflict between religious faith and
> scientific knowledge.  It is no particular leap for me to say, for example,
> that the story of creation is stated in one genre in the Bible (which Dowd
> would call "night language") and another way scientifically (which he would
> call "day language"), the latter expressed with the word "evolution," but
> that both are talking about the same reality.  I personally prefer words
> like "emergence" or "unfolding" in place of evolution but believe they
> are pointing to same thing.  And a key part of his message is that what
> all this points to is still going on and forever will be.  I harken to the
> words in Revelation, "Behold, I make all things new," present tense with
> future implied.
>
> Another, I have no difficulty with Dowd's calling God "Ultimate Reality"
> and find that not too far from Tillich's "ground of being."  Both insist
> that God is not one reality or one being among others, but the basis,
> foundation, context, etc. for all.  And the faith question in relation to
> that ultimate groundedness is not, "What do you believe?" but rather "What
> do you trust to the point that are you willing to stake your life on it?"
>
> Jack, to your point about rationalizing away mystery, my reading of Dowd
> (perhaps because this is what I want him to say) is that once you have
> explained scientifically how something in the religious arena works or
> happens, that need not take the mystery out of it.  My example--child
> birth.  I have a layman's knowledge of how this happens scientifically, but
> it is no less mysterious and awe-filling each time it occurs.  I could say
> the same about death.  Hence in his talk about "public" and "private"
> revelation and about rational, factual language and about mythical,
> metaphorical language, the use of one does not cancel out the need for the
> other.  While I am not as ready as he appears to be to discount the role
> and impact of scripture and tradition as being obsolete, my Wesleyan
> heritage puts me right with him in affirming that revelation is sourced not
> only through scripture and tradition but also through reason and
> experience. One of the ideas he pushes at hard is that God's evolutional,
> revelatory, creative activity did not stop and the end of the sixth day in
> Genesis or the day the last writer of the New Testament, or some other
> wisdom literature, put down his pen.
>
> Other points that caught my attention: that emergence happens through us
> in partnership with God; service to the Whole a big part of what we would
> call profound humanness; the dominant metaphor is changing from a
> mechanical to a nested, networked world, etc. etc. etc.
>
> Thanks, Herman, for prompting this conversation (again) and to all who are
> participating in it.
>
> Randy
>
>   *From:* "jlepps at pc.jaring.my" <jlepps at pc.jaring.my>
> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 9, 2013 8:19 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] A review of Charles Taylor's "The Secular
> Society"
>
>  How could I stay out of this conversation???
>
> There are at least three essays in my forthcoming book that address this
> issue. 2 are reviews of naive "theological" statements by Steven Hawking,
> and one is an essay on Faith. The latter is particularly pertinent here,
> since much of the controversy is about mis-understanding of language.
> Briefly, Faith seeks understanding, Faith seeks action, and Faith seeks
> expression. It's the expressions of faith that are sometimes confused with
> understandings of faith, and this leads to grossly flawed (and
> "unscientific") beliefs. It's as if one were to take Humpty Dumpty as a
> historical account rather than a mythological statement of profound truth!
>
> Anyway the book is called "The Theology of Surprise: Exploring Life's
> Mysteries." It should be out around the first of August through Resurgence
> Publishing. Should be available through Amazon soon.
>
> John
>
> At 04:19 PM 7/9/2013, you wrote:
>
> On Jul 9, 2013, at 3:49 PM, Herman Greene <hfgreenenc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Now this is an incomplete response and there is much more to be said,
> including some positive things about Michael's approach. By the way, in
> some senses I am a religious naturalist, but along the lines of process
> theology. See
>
> *Reenchantment without Supernaturalism: A Process Philosophy of Religion
> (Cornell Studies in the Philosophy of...<http://www.amazon.com/Reenchantment-without-Supernaturalism-Philosophy-Religion/dp/0801486572/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1373406412&sr=8-10&keywords=David+Ray+Griffin>by David
> Ray Griffin<http://www.amazon.com/David-Ray-Griffin/e/B000APTCK4/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_10?qid=1373406412&sr=8-10>(Nov 16, 2000). In the process approach there's plenty of transcendence as
> well as immanence, and religious knowledge is not only what can be known
> through the five senses and logic. There are other ways of knowing.*
>
>
>
> I think of myself as an avid scientist. What I believe is secondary and
> derivative of what I experience, with gratitude to the RS-I and Frank, Amy,
> Lyn, et al. I find myself thinking these days, "I don't believe in God, I
> have a God Hypothesis."
>
> I observe in more ways than I can name a mystery, depth, and greatness in
> the world (and dozens of et ceteras that I'll lump under the category
> gracious and holy mystery) that come at me in the form of relationships and
> events, inside me and outside me. It's all sustaining and energizing, etc.,
> etc.
>
> My God hypothesis (for which read: narrative of what to expect) gives me
> eyes to see. My hypothesis is a narrative about trinitarian dynamics
> (limits, possibilities, freedom) and it has been uniformly and reliably
> predictive for over 40 years now. It's saved my life, one might say.
>
> Rather than "do you believe in God?" I prefer to ask, "What are our images
> of God? Are they predictive of life experience? Do they give us eyes to
> see?"
>
> I toy with images of myself as contemplative or mystic or inveterate
> listener or ceaseless questioner. All of them, really, are about
> constantly, unobtrusively observing, testing my hypothesis, refining my
> images of the way life is, and looking again, to see if I can see more of
> what is there and what is real.
>
> I think I'd better read Dowd, Griffin, and Brooks, to see what all the
> energy is about.
>
> I go a bit berserk at the endless, mindless contraversy about conflict
> between religious belief and scientific knowledge.
>
> David
>
>
>
> ---
>
> [image: []]
>
>
> David Dunn
> 740 S Alton Way 9B
> Denver, CO 80247
> 720-314-5991
> dmdunn1 at gmail.com
>
>
>
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-- 
__________________________________________________
Herman F. Greene
2516 Winningham Road
Chapel Hill, NC 27516
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