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<DIV>Hi John, Randy, George, Bill, Jim et al,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have appreciated this exchange, and especially thank Jim W. for
calling my attention to the fine statement from the delegation from our New
England Conference.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Over the years voices from the northeast have often been "outliers" among
those of other Conferences (including the General Conference.) I thank
Bishop Jim Mathews (who served us in NE well back in the 1960s and was
long respected as an exemplar of wise pastoral leadership and just
administrative practices) for his legacy, echoed in the statement Jim
referenced.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Let's keep listening....</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Grace and peace,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Marilyn</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>PS Wonder if M. George or Maynard have insights to add?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 03:29:06 -0700 (PDT) R Williams <<A
href="mailto:rcwmbw@yahoo.com">rcwmbw@yahoo.com</A>> writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV><SPAN>Bill,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>Christianity was a movement for about 300 years before it became
institutionalized, so I would have to say that in most cases movements
give birth to institutions, not the other way around. True, many of us
came to the spirit movement from the local church, but for me
at least, it was because the movement seemed a legitimate alternative to
what wasn't working in the institution. I agree with George about
the value of the symbolic life, the wisdom literature and the historic
traditions, but what I see going on in within the institution of the
church today is what we called "institutionalism" in the RS-1 church
lecture. The church abdicates its mission of serving the world and
decides to make building and preserving the institution its
priority, and that's a perversion. Current examples of that for
me--the UMC and the decisions of the General Conference regarding LGBT
inclusiveness, and the Catholic Church with (1) the law suit filed by
the Catholic bishops in the U.S. against the government
regarding the health care law and contraception, and (2)
the harassment of nuns in this country by the Vatican. I know
there are obvious exceptions to what I am saying, but I fear my examples are
indicative of the dominant trend.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>Whether a movement or an institution, religious or
secular, its purpose must be to serve something greater than
itself. If it can appease the powers that be, keep its constituents
happy and balance the budget while doing that, fine. But it's when
those institutional chores become more important than the mission to
serve, that it becomes perverse. Even with corporations a lot of
insightful business people are saying that the purpose of business is not
to make a profit but to serve its stakeholders (not just its shareholders),
and that profit is the way it keeps score. Like saying that
breathing is necessary to sustain a human life but breathing
is not the reason for that life to exist. Where the
mission to serve gets lost or dumbed down, whether in the religious or
secular movement or the religious or secular institution, the
entity becomes at best irrelevant and at worst
destructive.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>Randy</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the
world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it
desires."<BR>-Martin Buber (adapted)<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV
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class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Bill Parker
<bparker175@cox.net><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Colleague Dialogue
<dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:53
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Dialogue]
Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a
lifetime"<BR></FONT></DIV><WBR>
<DIV id=yiv1299105475>
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<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>George,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I think your statement about the institutional
church is an important insight that is easily overlooked in the midst of our
frustration with the church. We make a mistake when we expect the
institutional church to fulfill the criteria of the movemental church. That is
not who or what they are. They have powers to contend with, budgets to meet,
programs to conduct to keep their constituencies happy with the church as an
institution. They are stationary in scope, intent, and form plus they
often appear to be shallow, misguided and self serving. Yet, it is the source,
the birthplace of the movemental religious. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>When you think about it, it is like a lot of us
expect insurance companies to take responsibility for our healthcare system.
That is not their job. That is the job of the society who wants to make sure
people have access to healthcare. We can't expect that from a corporation,
that is not what a corporation is.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Anyway.....just thinking,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bill</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geowanda@earthlink.net href="mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net"
rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net">George
Holcombe</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net
href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">Colleague Dialogue</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:31 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in,sounds like the "council of a
lifetime"</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>With Joe being a Methodist and Slicker a Presbyterian, we can
look at ourselves as a movement that sprang from the institutional church,
and there are others, even now. I think Joe was right when he said
that the institutional church was dead some years ago. However, there
is lots of life within the movemental church dynamic, and that includes all
the religions, that springs from institutional religion. What's
interesting about the institutional expressions of religion is that they
hold on to the symbols and scriptures, the history, etc. even when they
misinterpret and misrepresent them.
<DIV><WBR>
<DIV><SPAN
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: 0px; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"
class=yiv1299105475Apple-style-span><SPAN
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; ORPHANS: 2"
class=yiv1299105475Apple-style-span>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; ORPHANS: 2"
class=yiv1299105475Apple-style-span>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; ORPHANS: 2"
class=yiv1299105475Apple-style-span>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; ORPHANS: 2"
class=yiv1299105475Apple-style-span>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; ORPHANS: 2"
class=yiv1299105475Apple-style-span>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; ORPHANS: 2"
class=yiv1299105475Apple-style-span>
<DIV
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; WORD-WRAP: break-word; WHITE-SPACE: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: 0px; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">George
Holcombe<WBR>14900 Yellowleaf Tr.<WBR>Austin, TX 78728<WBR>Mobile
512/252-2756<WBR><A href="mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net" rel=nofollow
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net">geowanda@earthlink.net</A></DIV>
<DIV
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; WORD-WRAP: break-word; WHITE-SPACE: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: 0px; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">Hope appeareth, but it is not
your Hope—you do not have anything to do with it. It just
appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an alien—it just appeareth!
You do not even know why you hope. How in the world could you hope
when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope?
~Joseph W. Mathews<WBR><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"><BR></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></SPAN><BR
class=yiv1299105475Apple-interchange-newline></DIV><WBR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:52 PM, R Williams wrote:</DIV><WBR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><SPAN>In the midst of the turmoil the church is going through this is
one of the most hopeful pieces I've seen. The primary question for
me is, can a church that has been so embedded in institutional structures
for so long realistically be expected to reverse course and
again become a movemental presence?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>Randy </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in
the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it
desires."<WBR>-Martin Buber (adapted)<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"
class=yiv1299105475hr></DIV><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> James Wiegel <<A
href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> "<A
href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</A>"
<<A href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</A>>;
Colleague Dialogue <<A href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</A>>
<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, June 11,
2012 9:42 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
[Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a
lifetime"<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV id=yiv1299105475>
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style="font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit"
vAlign=top>http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-delegation-no-common-identity-for-umc/<BR><BR>Jim
Wiegel<BR><BR>If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,'
then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced. Vincent
Van Gogh<BR><BR>401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona
85353-2401<BR>+1 623-363-3277 skype:
jfredwiegel<BR>jfwiegel@yahoo.com <A
href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/" rel=nofollow
target=_blank>www.partnersinparticipation.com</A><BR><BR>Upcoming
public course opportunities:<BR>ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept
11-12, 2012<BR>ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012<BR>The AZ
Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7,
2012<BR>Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of
Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program
begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 <BR>See short video
http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for
further details.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 6/11/12, Timothy Wegner
<I><twegner@swbell.net></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From:
Timothy Wegner <twegner@swbell.net><BR>Subject: [Dialogue]
<A href="http://wedgeblade.net/" rel=nofollow
target=_blank>wedgeblade.net</A> is back up.<BR>To:
"oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>,
"dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net"
<dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net><BR>Date: Monday, June 11,
2012, 10:24 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV class=yiv1299105475plainMail>Wedgeblade.net has actually been
up since yesterday, but I just received a message from our host
that their backup restore is complete. All is good. In fact, all
is good even when the website is down! Tim ---------- Sent from
AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing
list<A rel=nofollow>Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</A>
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<DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dr. Marilyn R. Crocker<BR>123 Sanborn
Road<BR>West Newfield, ME 04095<BR></BODY></HTML>