[Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"

Thu Jun 14 05:29:05 PDT 2012

My understanding: Movement is to institution as flame is to candle.  Sort
of.  We live only in institutions (O:E and E.I. and I.C.A. were/are
institutions; if you don't believe me, ask the kids that endured them).
Marriages are institutions and so is the sanitation department.  All
institutions are founded in unbelief.  Movement is an action, a decision, a
spirit.  It happens or it does not happen.  As soon as it's structured, it
is an institution.  There was a counter culture institution in
pre-constantinian Christianity, but it was an institution.

The wind blows where it will.  The church's 'death' was that it wouldn't
grant a different institutional status that Joe wanted for the institution
he created/directed/served.

Institution is not 'bad' and movement 'good.'  The issue is what is the
responsible act in the midst of our institutional lives?

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 6:29 AM, R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Bill,
>
> Christianity was a movement for about 300 years before it became
> institutionalized, so I would have to say that in most cases movements give
> birth to institutions, not the other way around.  True, many of us came to
> the spirit movement from the local church, but for me at least, it was
> because the movement seemed a legitimate alternative to what wasn't working
> in the institution.  I agree with George about the value of the symbolic
> life, the wisdom literature and the historic traditions, but what I see
> going on in within the institution of the church today is what we called
> "institutionalism" in the RS-1 church lecture.  The church abdicates its
> mission of serving the world and decides to make building and
> preserving the institution its priority, and that's a perversion.  Current
> examples of that for me--the UMC and the decisions of the General
> Conference regarding LGBT inclusiveness, and the Catholic Church with (1)
> the law suit filed by the Catholic bishops in the U.S. against
> the government regarding the health care law and contraception, and (2)
> the harassment of nuns in this country by the Vatican.  I know there are
> obvious exceptions to what I am saying, but I fear my examples are
> indicative of the dominant trend.
>
> Whether a movement or an institution, religious or secular, its
> purpose must be to serve something greater than itself.  If it can appease
> the powers that be, keep its constituents happy and balance the budget
> while doing that, fine.  But it's when those institutional chores
> become more important than the mission to serve, that it becomes perverse.
> Even with corporations a lot of insightful business people are saying that
> the purpose of business is not to make a profit but to serve its
> stakeholders (not just its shareholders), and that profit is the way it
> keeps score.  Like saying that breathing is necessary to sustain a human
> life but breathing is not the reason for that life to exist.  Where the
> mission to serve gets lost or dumbed down, whether in the religious or
> secular movement or the religious or secular institution, the
> entity becomes at best irrelevant and at worst destructive.
>
> Randy
>
>
>
> "Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the
> world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires."
> -Martin Buber (adapted)
>    *From:* Bill Parker <bparker175 at cox.net>
> *To:* Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:53 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the
> "council of a lifetime"
>  **
>  George,
>
> I think your statement about the institutional church is an important
> insight that is easily overlooked in the midst of our frustration with the
> church. We make a mistake when we expect the institutional church to
> fulfill the criteria of the movemental church. That is not who or what they
> are. They have powers to contend with, budgets to meet, programs to conduct
> to keep their constituencies happy with the church as an institution. They
> are stationary in scope, intent, and form plus they often appear to be
> shallow, misguided and self serving. Yet, it is the source, the birthplace
> of the movemental religious.
>
> When you think about it, it is like a lot of us expect insurance companies
> to take responsibility for our healthcare system. That is not their job.
> That is the job of the society who wants to make sure people have access to
> healthcare. We can't expect that from a corporation, that is not what a
> corporation is.
>
> Anyway.....just thinking,
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* George Holcombe <geowanda at earthlink.net>
> *To:* Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:31 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in,sounds like the
> "council of a lifetime"
>
> With Joe being a Methodist and Slicker a Presbyterian, we can look at
> ourselves as a movement that sprang from the institutional church, and
> there are others, even now.  I think Joe was right when he said that the
> institutional church was dead some years ago.  However, there is lots of
> life within the movemental church dynamic, and that includes all the
> religions, that springs from institutional religion.  What's interesting
> about the institutional expressions of religion is that they hold on to the
> symbols and scriptures, the history, etc. even when they misinterpret and
> misrepresent them.
> **
>    George Holcombe**14900 Yellowleaf Tr.**Austin, TX 78728**Mobile
> 512/252-2756**geowanda at earthlink.net
>
> Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hope—you do not have anything to do
> with it. It just appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an alien—it
> just appeareth! You do not even know why you hope. How in the world could
> you hope when there is absolutely nothing to justify any hope?    ~Joseph
> W. Mathews**
>
>
> **
> On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:52 PM, R Williams wrote:
> **
>
>  In the midst of the turmoil the church is going through this is one of
> the most hopeful pieces I've seen.  The primary question for me is, can a
> church that has been so embedded in institutional structures for so long
> realistically be expected to reverse course and again become a movemental
> presence?
>
> Randy
>
> "Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the
> world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires."
> **-Martin Buber (adapted)
>   *From:* James Wiegel <jfwiegel at yahoo.com>
> *To:* "oe at lists.wedgeblade.net" <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>; Colleague
> Dialogue <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Sent:* Monday, June 11, 2012 9:42 PM
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the
> "council of a lifetime"
>
> http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-delegation-no-common-identity-for-umc/
>
> Jim Wiegel
>
> If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means
> paint, and that voice will be silenced. Vincent Van Gogh
>
> 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
> +1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel
> jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
>
> Upcoming public course opportunities:
> ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012
> ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012
> The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012
> Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation
> program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16,
> 2012
> See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and
> website for further details.
>
> --- On *Mon, 6/11/12, Timothy Wegner <twegner at swbell.net>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Timothy Wegner <twegner at swbell.net>
> Subject: [Dialogue] wedgeblade.net is back up.
> To: "oe at lists.wedgeblade.net" <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>, "
> dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net" <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:24 AM
>
> Wedgeblade.net has actually been up since yesterday, but I just received a
> message from our host that their backup restore is complete. All is good.
> In fact, all is good even when the website is down! Tim ---------- Sent
> from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email
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-- 
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 533-7057 ext. 207
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