I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it." And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows. Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to? I am afeared that I am misusing it. Thanks. Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking
Sickness Unto Death, dont remember page number. But at least my paper on that got me a grade so i could graduate from U. Of Minnesota in ‘59 Milan H Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 9, 2024, at 3:37 PM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it."
And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows.
Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to?
I am afeared that I am misusing it.
Thanks.
Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Here is the quote: he quote "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it" appears in Søren Kierkegaard's The Sickness Unto Death. The book is described as a "Christian Psychological Exposition for Upbuilding". Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 9, 2024, at 3:53 PM, Linda and Milan Hamilton via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Sickness Unto Death, dont remember page number. But at least my paper on that got me a grade so i could graduate from U. Of Minnesota in ‘59 Milan H Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 9, 2024, at 3:37 PM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it."
And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows.
Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to?
I am afeared that I am misusing it.
Thanks.
Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Maybe, it is, the self is the self in which relating itself to itself and and willing itself to be itself, grounds itself in the power which deposits I think that's pretty close. Maybe somebody can update some of the wording. On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 5:36 PM James Wiegel via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it."
And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows.
Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to?
I am afeared that I am misusing it.
Thanks.
Jim Wiegel
“We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Really? On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:37 PM James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it."
And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows.
Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to?
I am afeared that I am misusing it.
Thanks.
Jim Wiegel
“We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Fear and Trembling and the Sickness Unto Death was translated into English in 1941. When he 1st published it and otherbooks about the Self, he was illuminating the inner landscape (reflective, interpretive) ignored by the style of teacing and sermonizing of the times(objective) esp. Literal interpretation of the rich mythology of the scriptures. John Cok, shuffled it all and added Decisional while teaching courses onthe West Side. I can see where SK opened the door for psychiatry to develop in the previous century. Judi On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:54 PM Judi White <judiwhite070@gmail.com> wrote:
Really?
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:37 PM James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it."
And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows.
Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to?
I am afeared that I am misusing it.
Thanks.
Jim Wiegel
“We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
I wonder if this quote is the source of the accountability answer of "Yes and No" or "No and Yes"? 828-292-9696 On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 5:12 PM Judi White via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Fear and Trembling and the Sickness Unto Death was translated into English in 1941. When he 1st published it and otherbooks about the Self, he was illuminating the inner landscape (reflective, interpretive) ignored by the style of teacing and sermonizing of the times(objective) esp. Literal interpretation of the rich mythology of the scriptures. John Cok, shuffled it all and added Decisional while teaching courses onthe West Side. I can see where SK opened the door for psychiatry to develop in the previous century. Judi
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:54 PM Judi White <judiwhite070@gmail.com> wrote:
Really?
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:37 PM James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it."
And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows.
Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to?
I am afeared that I am misusing it.
Thanks.
Jim Wiegel
“We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
I associate the famous SK quote with Joe Pierce, who used the self-reflective arrows showing the relation we take to the boxes that box us in -- to interpret SK (as far as I got it way back in the Dark Ages of RS-1 pedagogy) as saying that the Self is a self-conscious embracing (or the failure/conscious or unconscious decision NOT to embrace! -- which is the abandonment of the possibility of fully being one's Self!) of the givenness of "consciousness of consciousness of consciousness" which is the Decisional level of being willing to have fully and without reservation the god damned life that you've been given and have showed up with in the body that you embody. Or something like that.Sometimes I think that Pierce & Company were interpreting SK and putting their own spin on what he meant with his quote. So if SK cracked open the door, we grabbed his insight and charged through it like a mighty army.Or something like that.Marshall On Tuesday, July 9, 2024 at 07:27:29 PM EDT, Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: I wonder if this quote is the source of the accountability answer of "Yes and No" or "No and Yes"? 828-292-9696 On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 5:12 PM Judi White via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Fear and Trembling and the Sickness Unto Death was translated into English in 1941. When he 1st published it and otherbooks about the Self, he was illuminating the inner landscape (reflective, interpretive) ignored by the style of teacing and sermonizing of the times(objective) esp. Literal interpretation of the rich mythology of the scriptures. John Cok, shuffled it all and added Decisional while teaching courses onthe West Side. I can see where SK opened the door for psychiatry to develop in the previous century. Judi On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:54 PM Judi White <judiwhite070@gmail.com> wrote: Really? On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:37 PM James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it." And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows. Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to? I am afeared that I am misusing it. Thanks. Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
I'll attempt the family expansion. Anything beyond the individual, obviously has a component of those who ground themselves transparently in the power and those who don't. The family exists in a connection with all other families. The choices that the family makes acknowledge/affirm/deny their connection with and flow between other families. The family creates narratives of meaning about their choices and the resulting consequences...yes our choices are good, or no they are not good. The family can then look at all the consequences and choices and narratives of meaning and good and bad and embrace them (Yes) and thereby connect with the comprehensive known and unknown reality they exist in, or deny (No) part or all and experience no connection to the gift of life they have been given, and be fear filled victims. Moses, Bultman, and SK all speak of G-O-D in terms of experience and energy. *Grounded transparently in the power that posits-*energized by the life flowing through them without resistance, transparently for all to see, including my seeing of myself. To be a family then, to know my family-ness, is to drink at the well of my relationship to all the consequences of all my choices I made with parents and children and all my family and know there is no good or bad, only what is and the story my family tells about us....transparently with a YES to all of it. I am going to be scheduling zoom sessions to talk about affordable housing and create a network of affordable housing leaders. I'll get back to y'all about the application of SK to community in a year or two. And I would welcome anyone who would like to join that conversation to reach out to me. 828-292-9696 On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 7:59 PM James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
WELL, NOT MUCH GOING ON AROUND THE COLLEAGUE NETWORK THIS EVENING, EH?
Thanks for the quickness. . . . I find myself using this quote as a formula:
"The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it." The organization is a relation that . . The team is a relation that . . . The family is a relation that. . . . The neighborhood is a relation that . . . A city is a relation that. . . .
Do such substitutions seem helpful? Are they at all connected with SK's insight??
"The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it."
Jim Wiegel
“We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking
On Jul 9, 2024, at 6:25 PM, W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I associate the famous SK quote with Joe Pierce, who used the self-reflective arrows showing the relation we take to the boxes that box us in -- to interpret SK (as far as I got it way back in the Dark Ages of RS-1 pedagogy) as saying that the Self is a self-conscious embracing (or the failure/conscious or unconscious decision NOT to embrace! -- which is the abandonment of the possibility of fully being one's Self!) of the givenness of "consciousness of consciousness of consciousness" which is the Decisional level of being willing to have fully and without reservation the god damned life that you've been given and have showed up with in the body that you embody. Or something like that. Sometimes I think that Pierce & Company were *interpreting* SK and putting their own spin on what he meant with his quote. So if SK cracked open the door, we grabbed his insight and charged through it like a mighty army. Or something like that. Marshall
On Tuesday, July 9, 2024 at 07:27:29 PM EDT, Don Bushman via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I wonder if this quote is the source of the accountability answer of "Yes and No" or "No and Yes"?
828-292-9696
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 5:12 PM Judi White via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Fear and Trembling and the Sickness Unto Death was translated into English in 1941. When he 1st published it and otherbooks about the Self, he was illuminating the inner landscape (reflective, interpretive) ignored by the style of teacing and sermonizing of the times(objective) esp. Literal interpretation of the rich mythology of the scriptures. John Cok, shuffled it all and added Decisional while teaching courses onthe West Side. I can see where SK opened the door for psychiatry to develop in the previous century. Judi
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:54 PM Judi White <judiwhite070@gmail.com> wrote:
Really?
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:37 PM James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it."
And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows.
Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to?
I am afeared that I am misusing it.
Thanks.
Jim Wiegel
“We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
That’s how I read it: Relationships are a given – objective. How I feel about them happens – reflective Yes/No to the life I have (all of it – past/present/open future) decisional In the light of the power that posits the self – yes to way life is as a whole and accepting of the YES life affirms in my being. Bill Schlesinger From: OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> On Behalf Of W. J. via OE Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2024 6:20 PM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: W. J. <synergi@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Question about Kierkegaard I associate the famous SK quote with Joe Pierce, who used the self-reflective arrows showing the relation we take to the boxes that box us in -- to interpret SK (as far as I got it way back in the Dark Ages of RS-1 pedagogy) as saying that the Self is a self-conscious embracing (or the failure/conscious or unconscious decision NOT to embrace! -- which is the abandonment of the possibility of fully being one's Self!) of the givenness of "consciousness of consciousness of consciousness" which is the Decisional level of being willing to have fully and without reservation the god damned life that you've been given and have showed up with in the body that you embody. Or something like that. Sometimes I think that Pierce & Company were interpreting SK and putting their own spin on what he meant with his quote. So if SK cracked open the door, we grabbed his insight and charged through it like a mighty army. Or something like that. Marshall On Tuesday, July 9, 2024 at 07:27:29 PM EDT, Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote: I wonder if this quote is the source of the accountability answer of "Yes and No" or "No and Yes"? <https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4zOIu3LEC6MFTWTu0KY7E502yfIl5gyrUcU9KlzwS-rSnRYeib0f_TPP7f9TiS5-tpufMUq26vAwWag> <https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4wgIOy7oWy3z_VRwzsBpODEX3NNQ9JDo77bNqvSsjWJ9GswXJj_6KMPdFE-dzLVIcOLFPbwXCt5GgEQ> 828-292-9696 On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 5:12 PM Judi White via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote: Fear and Trembling and the Sickness Unto Death was translated into English in 1941. When he 1st published it and otherbooks about the Self, he was illuminating the inner landscape (reflective, interpretive) ignored by the style of teacing and sermonizing of the times(objective) esp. Literal interpretation of the rich mythology of the scriptures. John Cok, shuffled it all and added Decisional while teaching courses onthe West Side. I can see where SK opened the door for psychiatry to develop in the previous century. Judi On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:54 PM Judi White <judiwhite070@gmail.com <mailto:judiwhite070@gmail.com> > wrote: Really? On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:37 PM James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote: I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it." And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows. Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to? I am afeared that I am misusing it. Thanks. Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <https://www.google.com/url?q=http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net&source=gmail-imap&ust=1721175897000000&usg=AOvVaw16aKZovTT9ecybvE8vp0vI> _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <https://www.google.com/url?q=http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net&source=gmail-imap&ust=1721175897000000&usg=AOvVaw16aKZovTT9ecybvE8vp0vI> _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <https://www.google.com/url?q=http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net&source=gmail-imap&ust=1721175897000000&usg=AOvVaw16aKZovTT9ecybvE8vp0vI> -- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or saving them. Thank you
BTW – which I do and don’t do periodically, so yes to ‘Yes and No,’ and ‘No and Yes.’ From: w.schlesinger@pvida.net <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2024 8:00 AM To: 'Order Ecumenical Community' <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: 'W. J.' <synergi@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [Oe List ...] Question about Kierkegaard That’s how I read it: Relationships are a given – objective. How I feel about them happens – reflective Yes/No to the life I have (all of it – past/present/open future) decisional In the light of the power that posits the self – yes to way life is as a whole and accepting of the YES life affirms in my being. Bill Schlesinger From: OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> > On Behalf Of W. J. via OE Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2024 6:20 PM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > Cc: W. J. <synergi@yahoo.com <mailto:synergi@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Question about Kierkegaard I associate the famous SK quote with Joe Pierce, who used the self-reflective arrows showing the relation we take to the boxes that box us in -- to interpret SK (as far as I got it way back in the Dark Ages of RS-1 pedagogy) as saying that the Self is a self-conscious embracing (or the failure/conscious or unconscious decision NOT to embrace! -- which is the abandonment of the possibility of fully being one's Self!) of the givenness of "consciousness of consciousness of consciousness" which is the Decisional level of being willing to have fully and without reservation the god damned life that you've been given and have showed up with in the body that you embody. Or something like that. Sometimes I think that Pierce & Company were interpreting SK and putting their own spin on what he meant with his quote. So if SK cracked open the door, we grabbed his insight and charged through it like a mighty army. Or something like that. Marshall On Tuesday, July 9, 2024 at 07:27:29 PM EDT, Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote: I wonder if this quote is the source of the accountability answer of "Yes and No" or "No and Yes"? <https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4zOIu3LEC6MFTWTu0KY7E502yfIl5gyrUcU9KlzwS-rSnRYeib0f_TPP7f9TiS5-tpufMUq26vAwWag> <https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4wgIOy7oWy3z_VRwzsBpODEX3NNQ9JDo77bNqvSsjWJ9GswXJj_6KMPdFE-dzLVIcOLFPbwXCt5GgEQ> 828-292-9696 On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 5:12 PM Judi White via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote: Fear and Trembling and the Sickness Unto Death was translated into English in 1941. When he 1st published it and otherbooks about the Self, he was illuminating the inner landscape (reflective, interpretive) ignored by the style of teacing and sermonizing of the times(objective) esp. Literal interpretation of the rich mythology of the scriptures. John Cok, shuffled it all and added Decisional while teaching courses onthe West Side. I can see where SK opened the door for psychiatry to develop in the previous century. Judi On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:54 PM Judi White <judiwhite070@gmail.com <mailto:judiwhite070@gmail.com> > wrote: Really? On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:37 PM James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote: I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it." And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows. Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to? I am afeared that I am misusing it. Thanks. Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <https://www.google.com/url?q=http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net&source=gmail-imap&ust=1721175897000000&usg=AOvVaw16aKZovTT9ecybvE8vp0vI> _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <https://www.google.com/url?q=http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net&source=gmail-imap&ust=1721175897000000&usg=AOvVaw16aKZovTT9ecybvE8vp0vI> _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <https://www.google.com/url?q=http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net&source=gmail-imap&ust=1721175897000000&usg=AOvVaw16aKZovTT9ecybvE8vp0vI> -- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or saving them. Thank you
Thank you, all of you, for your musings on this — I greatly appreciate the reminders. BTW, I was once wearing an Order t-shirt with the SK quote on it, and was stopped by a student so he could write it down, and was thanked profusely for giving him a breakthrough on writing a paper. Nancy Trask On Wed, Jul 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM Bill Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
BTW – which I do and don’t do periodically, so yes to ‘Yes and No,’ and ‘No and Yes.’
*From:* w.schlesinger@pvida.net <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 10, 2024 8:00 AM *To:* 'Order Ecumenical Community' <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* 'W. J.' <synergi@yahoo.com> *Subject:* RE: [Oe List ...] Question about Kierkegaard
That’s how I read it:
Relationships are a given – objective.
How I feel about them happens – reflective
Yes/No to the life I have (all of it – past/present/open future) decisional
In the light of the power that posits the self – yes to way life is as a whole and accepting of the YES life affirms in my being.
Bill Schlesinger
*From:* OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> *On Behalf Of *W. J. via OE *Sent:* Tuesday, July 9, 2024 6:20 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* W. J. <synergi@yahoo.com> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Question about Kierkegaard
I associate the famous SK quote with Joe Pierce, who used the self-reflective arrows showing the relation we take to the boxes that box us in -- to interpret SK (as far as I got it way back in the Dark Ages of RS-1 pedagogy) as saying that the Self is a self-conscious embracing (or the failure/conscious or unconscious decision NOT to embrace! -- which is the abandonment of the possibility of fully being one's Self!) of the givenness of "consciousness of consciousness of consciousness" which is the Decisional level of being willing to have fully and without reservation the god damned life that you've been given and have showed up with in the body that you embody.
Or something like that.
Sometimes I think that Pierce & Company were *interpreting* SK and putting their own spin on what he meant with his quote. So if SK cracked open the door, we grabbed his insight and charged through it like a mighty army.
Or something like that.
Marshall
On Tuesday, July 9, 2024 at 07:27:29 PM EDT, Don Bushman via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I wonder if this quote is the source of the accountability answer of "Yes and No" or "No and Yes"?
828-292-9696
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 5:12 PM Judi White via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Fear and Trembling and the Sickness Unto Death was translated into English in 1941. When he 1st published it and otherbooks about the Self, he was illuminating the inner landscape (reflective, interpretive) ignored by the style of teacing and sermonizing of the times(objective) esp. Literal interpretation of the rich mythology of the scriptures. John Cok, shuffled it all and added Decisional while teaching courses onthe West Side. I can see where SK opened the door for psychiatry to develop in the previous century. Judi
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:54 PM Judi White <judiwhite070@gmail.com> wrote:
Really?
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 6:37 PM James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it."
And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows.
Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to?
I am afeared that I am misusing it.
Thanks.
Jim Wiegel
“We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking
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The line is from the following paragraph in Chapter 1 of SK’sSickness Unto Death: “The self is a relation which relates itself to its ownself, or it is that in the relation by which the relation relates itself to itsown self; the self is not the relation but is the relation’s relating itself toits own self. The self is not the relation but is the relation’s relatingitself to its own self. Man is a synthesis of the infinite and the finite, ofthe temporal and the eternal, of freedom and necessity, in short, a synthesis.A synthesis is a relation between two. Considered in this way, man is not yet aself." And as for what we were pointing to with that quote - I'm just mulling over it and finding it a fascinating experience - there seems to be so much insight locked in there as to what the "self" is, what I am and what conciousness is. On Wednesday, 10 July 2024 at 06:37:05 am GMT+8, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it." And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows. Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to? I am afeared that I am misusing it. Thanks. Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
As i recall, this formulation is a one sentence summary of Kierkegard's "The Sickness Unto Death." The forms of despair are all ways of not willing to be the self that we fundamentally are. The self is a fundamental relationship between the finite and the eternal and we are conscious of this fundamental relationship, thus "the self is a relation which relates itself to itself". The forms of despair are all the ways we refuse to be this fundamental relation as detailed in the "forms of despair", The sickness unto death - our unwillingness to be the given self that we fundamentally are. By willing to be this fundamental self we ground our self transparently in the power that has created this unique self. The Tillich paper explores the fundamental dynamics of this despair (sin) and the willingness to be the created self which grounds us transparently in the power that posits us (Grace.) Dou Druckenmiller. Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> ________________________________ From: Dialogue <dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2024 5:35:30 PM To: Colleague Dialogue Listserve <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>; Order Community <oe@wedgeblade.net> Cc: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Kierkegaard I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it." And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows. Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to? I am afeared that I am misusing it. Thanks. Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking
Here is a direct quote from the opening passage: "Man is spirit. But what is spirit? Spirit is the self. But what is the self? The self is a relation which relates itself to its own self, or it is that in the relation which accounts for it that the relation relates itself to its own self; the self is not the relation but consists in the fact that the relation relates itself to its own self. Man is a synthesis of the infinite and the finite, of the temporal and the eternal, of freedom and necessity, in short it is a synthesis. A synthesis is a relation between two factors. So regarded, man is not yet a self." Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> ________________________________ From: Doug and Pat Druckenmiller <dpat23@msn.com> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2024 8:57:51 PM To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>; Order Community <oe@wedgeblade.net> Cc: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Kierkegaard As i recall, this formulation is a one sentence summary of Kierkegard's "The Sickness Unto Death." The forms of despair are all ways of not willing to be the self that we fundamentally are. The self is a fundamental relationship between the finite and the eternal and we are conscious of this fundamental relationship, thus "the self is a relation which relates itself to itself". The forms of despair are all the ways we refuse to be this fundamental relation as detailed in the "forms of despair", The sickness unto death - our unwillingness to be the given self that we fundamentally are. By willing to be this fundamental self we ground our self transparently in the power that has created this unique self. The Tillich paper explores the fundamental dynamics of this despair (sin) and the willingness to be the created self which grounds us transparently in the power that posits us (Grace.) Dou Druckenmiller. Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> ________________________________ From: Dialogue <dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2024 5:35:30 PM To: Colleague Dialogue Listserve <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>; Order Community <oe@wedgeblade.net> Cc: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Kierkegaard I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it." And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows. Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to? I am afeared that I am misusing it. Thanks. Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking
"Man is spirit. But what is spirit? Spirit is the self. But what is the self? The self is a relation which relates itself to its own self, or it is that in the relation which accounts for it that the relation relates itself to its own self; the self is not the relation but consists in the fact that the relation relates itself to its own self. Man is a synthesis of the infinite and the finite, of the temporal and the eternal, of freedom and necessity, in short it is a synthesis. A synthesis is a relation between two factors. So regarded, man is not yet a self."
For me this was really the only thing I really remembered from the religious studies taught by JWM at SMU in 1960’s. It awakened my consciousness and affirmed my awareness of myself as a spirit being, in a physical body, who was struggling to emerge and become who I really was. Later, it summed up the Order Ecumenical understanding. Then it catalyzed, integrated, and synthesized who we wanted to become and brought harmony to the mission as ICA. Decades later it still remains as the best way to describe "who I am" as I daily “act out’ this understanding. It keeps me true to what “my unique present day life” is all about and how it relates to “God as the Ultimate, Infinite, All-Loving/All-Power/All-Wisdom Mysterious Beingness" in each moment of my participation with all my fellow human beings on this planet of ours. We are all really present day "spirit beings" in the process of becoming who we transparently truly are. I am confident that our research and training as the Order or as ICA or ToP accelerated the process of making planet earth a better place for all to live wherever they have “shown up” on it. Jean Watts
On Aug 2, 2024, at 10:47 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
We are camping in Adair, Iowa, city park headed for Duluth. We could stop by Wells tomorrow for coffee or lunch for further philosophication, if that seems at all productive. Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking
On Aug 2, 2024, at 9:35 PM, Doug and Pat Druckenmiller <dpat23@msn.com> wrote:
Here is a direct quote from the opening passage:
"Man is spirit. But what is spirit? Spirit is the self. But what is the self? The self is a relation which relates itself to its own self, or it is that in the relation which accounts for it that the relation relates itself to its own self; the self is not the relation but consists in the fact that the relation relates itself to its own self. Man is a synthesis of the infinite and the finite, of the temporal and the eternal, of freedom and necessity, in short it is a synthesis. A synthesis is a relation between two factors. So regarded, man is not yet a self."
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> From: Doug and Pat Druckenmiller <dpat23@msn.com> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2024 8:57:51 PM To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>; Order Community <oe@wedgeblade.net> Cc: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Kierkegaard
As i recall, this formulation is a one sentence summary of Kierkegard's "The Sickness Unto Death." The forms of despair are all ways of not willing to be the self that we fundamentally are. The self is a fundamental relationship between the finite and the eternal and we are conscious of this fundamental relationship, thus "the self is a relation which relates itself to itself". The forms of despair are all the ways we refuse to be this fundamental relation as detailed in the "forms of despair", The sickness unto death - our unwillingness to be the given self that we fundamentally are. By willing to be this fundamental self we ground our self transparently in the power that has created this unique self. The Tillich paper explores the fundamental dynamics of this despair (sin) and the willingness to be the created self which grounds us transparently in the power that posits us (Grace.)
Dou Druckenmiller.
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> From: Dialogue <dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2024 5:35:30 PM To: Colleague Dialogue Listserve <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>; Order Community <oe@wedgeblade.net> Cc: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Kierkegaard
I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it."
And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows.
Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to?
I am afeared that I am misusing it.
Thanks.
Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
On Aug 3, 2024, at 11:28 AM, Jean Watts via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
"Man is spirit. But what is spirit? Spirit is the self. But what is the self? The self is a relation which relates itself to its own self, or it is that in the relation which accounts for it that the relation relates itself to its own self; the self is not the relation but consists in the fact that the relation relates itself to its own self. Man is a synthesis of the infinite and the finite, of the temporal and the eternal, of freedom and necessity, in short it is a synthesis. A synthesis is a relation between two factors. So regarded, man is not yet a self."
For me this was really the only thing I really remembered from the religious studies taught by JWM at SMU in 1960’s. It awakened my consciousness and affirmed my awareness of myself as a spirit being, in a physical body, who was struggling to emerge and become who I really was. Later, it summed up the Order Ecumenical understanding. Then it catalyzed, integrated, and synthesized who we wanted to become and brought harmony to the mission as ICA.
Decades later it still remains as the best way to describe "who I am" as I daily “act out’ this understanding. It keeps me true to what “my unique present day life” is all about and how it relates to “God as the Ultimate, Infinite, All-Loving/All-Power/All-Wisdom Mysterious Beingness" in each moment of my participation with all my fellow human beings on this planet of ours. We are all really present day "spirit beings" in the process of becoming who we transparently truly are.
I am confident that our research and training as the Order or as ICA or ToP accelerated the process of making planet earth a better place for all to live wherever they have “shown up” on it.
Jean Watts
On Aug 2, 2024, at 10:47 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
We are camping in Adair, Iowa, city park headed for Duluth. We could stop by Wells tomorrow for coffee or lunch for further philosophication, if that seems at all productive. Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking
On Aug 2, 2024, at 9:35 PM, Doug and Pat Druckenmiller <dpat23@msn.com> wrote:
Here is a direct quote from the opening passage:
"Man is spirit. But what is spirit? Spirit is the self. But what is the self? The self is a relation which relates itself to its own self, or it is that in the relation which accounts for it that the relation relates itself to its own self; the self is not the relation but consists in the fact that the relation relates itself to its own self. Man is a synthesis of the infinite and the finite, of the temporal and the eternal, of freedom and necessity, in short it is a synthesis. A synthesis is a relation between two factors. So regarded, man is not yet a self."
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> From: Doug and Pat Druckenmiller <dpat23@msn.com> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2024 8:57:51 PM To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>; Order Community <oe@wedgeblade.net> Cc: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question about Kierkegaard
As i recall, this formulation is a one sentence summary of Kierkegard's "The Sickness Unto Death." The forms of despair are all ways of not willing to be the self that we fundamentally are. The self is a fundamental relationship between the finite and the eternal and we are conscious of this fundamental relationship, thus "the self is a relation which relates itself to itself". The forms of despair are all the ways we refuse to be this fundamental relation as detailed in the "forms of despair", The sickness unto death - our unwillingness to be the given self that we fundamentally are. By willing to be this fundamental self we ground our self transparently in the power that has created this unique self. The Tillich paper explores the fundamental dynamics of this despair (sin) and the willingness to be the created self which grounds us transparently in the power that posits us (Grace.)
Dou Druckenmiller.
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> From: Dialogue <dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2024 5:35:30 PM To: Colleague Dialogue Listserve <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>; Order Community <oe@wedgeblade.net> Cc: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> Subject: [Dialogue] Question about Kierkegaard
I keep remembering "The self is a relation; that relates itself to itself; and in willing to be that relation; grounds itself transparently in the power that posits it."
And I remember the diagram with the lines and boxes and curvy arrows.
Where did that come from (which book or paper?). What was SK pointing to? What were we pointing to?
I am afeared that I am misusing it.
Thanks.
Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
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participants (12)
-
Dharmalingam Vinasithamby -
Don Bushman -
Doug and Pat Druckenmiller -
Ed Feldmanis -
James Wiegel -
Jean Watts -
Judi White -
Linda and Milan Hamilton -
Milan Hamilton -
Nancy Trask -
W. J. -
w.schlesinger＠pvida.net