I am probably among the few that are still deeply entrenched in the church. I am in the Methodist Church which may be about to take its swan song and is certainly not the dynamic of the Church in history these days. When you mentioned the flow, I was taken immediately back to Wesley. In his journals near the time of his death he was wondering if he had done enough. Apparently he could not re-member or envision the impact of stopping British ships from participating in the slave trade, or all the children he called out of the factories and mines and sent to school, or even that through the ‘class meetings’ he had set up the development of the middle class in England and the snooty old church had to welcome them all. I am thinking it would need to be far more than a collegium if we were to brood on the number of times we have seen the flow dramatically shift. This is just the set of images that popped into my mind as I read your offering. I hope others share theirs. Emmanuel, Margaret From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Jack Gilles via OE Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 9:50 AM To: OE Listserve Cc: Jack Gilles Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] On Pioneers Randy, Meg always does a good job of communicating her understanding of how things happen. It does indeed give a deeper meaning to the term Pioneer. I was thinking that it would be a good collegium (and Research) to bring all the images of the flow of civilisation that we have either created or encountered and have them on one time line and see where the similarities and differences are. I have always been intrigued with Malachi Martin’s image that the shifts have been marked by a birth of Spirit that captures the imagination and hearts of those living in those places. And the residue is to be found in the great remnants of the people’s attempt to give form to that spirit and understanding. But it moves on, leaving the form, which can never be captured in stone. In 1975 I participated in a conversation with Malachi in the Cleveland House and he shared the genesis of that idea he wrote about when working on Vatican II with Pope John. He also laid a claim and a promise upon those of us who were the OE. Powerful evening. I have studied (years ago) the rise and fall of civilisations in Mexico, primarily using the book “Burning Water”. Teotihuacan was such a place and the original people who broke that understanding loose created a pilgrimage spot for all of Meso-America. The original symbolism and rituals got perverted over hundreds of years and it died, but it was such a source of light and meaning for all who came. The people who did this have disappeared, but their insights were straight out of RS-I, “To Die is to Live”. Another model of how the Spirit has moved throughout the history of is Bob Campbell’s work. http://www.cosmic-mindreach.com/Human_History.html Note the last paragraph and see how we also felt the global commerce could lead us to a new society. I think that is what JWM had in mind when we first developed the NINS Course, which became the LENS program. I feel this is one of the edges those of us working on the archives could bring into source of creative dialogue. My two cents, excuse me, my two centavos! Thanks, Jack On Oct 20, 2017, at 09:05, Randy Williams via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: I ran across this in the appendix of Meg Wheatley’s new book, Who Do We Choose To Be. It’s from a piece by Sir John Glubb on”The Six Ages of a Civilization’s Growth and Collapse.” The 1st age is the Age of Pioneers. “New pioneers or conquerors are usually poor, hardy, enterprising, and aggressive. They seem to appear from nowhere, surprising the dominant civilization. They possess fearless initiative, energy, and courage. The decaying empire that they overthrow is wealthy but defensive-minded. Pioneers are practical and experimental; action is their solution to every problem. They have strong virtues: optimism, confidence, devotion to duty, a sense of honor, shared purpose, and a strict moral code.” This gives me a new appreciation for the word. I wonder if HRN might have thought this to be an apt description for today of what he thought to be the “church” dynamic. Randy _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net