Thanks, Herman--will ponder this and look forward to your next piece re evolution. Ellie -----Original Message----- From: Herman Greene <hfgreenenc@gmail.com> To: OE Listserv <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Fri, Jul 12, 2013 2:50 pm Subject: [Oe List ...] Groundbreaking thinking This is great Janice. Ellie wanted to know what my difference's with Dowd were, this is a key one. I believe there is a psychic-spiritual dimension in everything. Michael and Connie are of the emergentist understanding of this type. We begin with dead or inert matter and at there is increasing complexity at certain stages there are phase shifts. So, e.g.., consciousness is an epiphenomenon of complexity. Here's an explanation, satisfactory to me, of why this is not the case: It seems that if we accept the modern scientific view of nature, wemust accept the human phenomenon as supernatural, either emerging out of thenatural realm but categorially quite different or else the product of specialcreation by some supernatural power. In science, we recognize the emergence ofcertain properties. For instance, water has properties not possessed by theelements that constitute it. But the elements and their organization explainwater and its properties. However, there is no accounting for categorialstructures. We cannot explain subject matter with normative and inherentmeaning structures in terms of subject matter with only factual structures. Ifa categorially enriched subject matter should appear in a context with onlyexistential and factual structures, its appearance would be a total mystery. Infact, there would be two mysteries: the new categorial structures and theirappearance at the time and place in which they came into being. This has ledsome to think in terms of special creation. But that generates the mystery of atranscendent creative power with its categorial structure. That amounts toexplaining a mystery by embedding it in a larger mystery created for thepurpose. The intellectual quest drives us toward the reduction of mystery, notthe multiplication or enlargement of it. The most plausible courseseems to be to rethink nature in such a way that we can account for theappearance of the categorially rich biological and human realms as developmentsin or fulfillment of preexisting nature. In other words, the fact thatbiological and human phenomena appear on this planet in a “natural” environmenttells us something about the “natural” environment, for it must be such that itbrings forth the biological and the full array of human phenomena. . . . Hence,we seem compelled to reintroduce humanistic categories into thedescriptive/explanatory language of science in its account of nature. If so, wehave a new humanistic view of nature and less mystery. Of course the categorialstructures of factuality, normativity, semantic intentionality, and causality(whether naturalistic in the modern sense or teleological) remain givenswithout explanation, for there is no logical room for an explanation of suchbasic features of the world. Here's a discussion of "emergentism" as distinguished from "emergence." Connie and Mike clearly stated to me that they are emergentists: All varieties of emergentism strive to be compatible with physicalism, the theory that the universe is composed exclusively of physical entities, and in particular with the evidence relating changes in the brain with changes in mental functioning. As a theory of mind (which it is not always), emergentism differs from idealism,eliminative materialism, identity theories, neutral monism, panpsychism, and substance dualism, whilst being closely associated with property dualism. It is generally not obvious whether an emergent theory of mind embraces mental causation or must be considered epiphenomenal. Some varieties of emergentism are not specifically concerned with the mind-body problem, and instead suggest a hierarchical or layered view of the whole of nature, with the layers arranged in terms of increasing complexity with each requiring its own special science. Typically physics is basic, with chemistry built on top of it, then biology, psychology and social sciences. Reductionists respond that the arrangement of the sciences is a matter of convenience, and that chemistry is derivable from physics (and so forth) in principle, an argument which gained force after the establishment of a quantum-mechanical basis for chemistry.[1] Other varieties see mind or consciousness as specifically and anomalously requiring emergentist explanation, and therefore constitute a family of positions in thephilosophy of mind. Douglas Hofstadter summarises this view as "the soul is more than the hum of its parts". A number of philosophers have offered the argument that qualia constitute the hard problem of consciousness, and resist reductive explanation in a way that all other phenomena do not. In contrast, reductionists generally see the task of accounting for the possibly atypical properties of mind and of living things as a matter of showing that, contrary to appearances, such properties are indeed fully accountable in terms of the properties of the basic constituents of nature and therefore in no way genuinely atypical. I am a panpsychist, or I prefer a "panexperientialist." Here are some of the other differences I have with Connie and Mike: I don't believe you can divide the world between the empirically verifiable--by the five sense and logic--and the subjective. I accept Henry James radical empiricism which recognizes other ways of knowing including somatic (or bodily), intuitive and conative (will, impulse, desire, and striving). I don't accept God as simply reality, or as we often have said "the way life is." I believe that God is the subject of God's own experience and acts. I don't believe there can be a marriage of religion and science--science here meaning empirical science, that which is measurable, that which covers primary but not secondary qualifies. I agree with Connie and Mike that there is a religious dimension of the scientific quest and that there is awe and mystery in scientific discovery. What evolution means deserves its own email, which I will send later. The phone call you note sounds wonderful Janice. I won't listen in Saturday but I will listen to the recording. Herman On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 7:40 PM, Janice Ulangca <aulangca@stny.rr.com> wrote: Colleagues, So much bubbling right now. And our "movement" needs to be part of it if we are to find the relevant niches/roles for our unique experiences going forward. I've been very interested in the list serv discussion of Charles Taylor's "The Secular Society" - along with Michael Dowd's "Thank God for Evolution". Some familiar names, along with some perhaps not so for all of us, are coming up on a phone call this Saturday. Ken Wilbur's ideas have been discussed by many of us - we read Riane Eisler's book "The Chalice and the Blade" - and I remember hearing Barbara Marx Hubbard at 4750 the summer we heard people like Jean Houston. Laszlo's book "The Chaos Point" we studied here in Binghamton the year it came out. For those interested in the deeps of current reality, including the role of consciousness, this phone call might be worth checking out. Janice Ulangca ------------------- Saturday, July 20, 2013 12pm US Pacific / 3pm US Eastern Sign up to listen live or receive the recording The evidence is mounting from every direction: the materialist paradigm of science is breaking down. Data that traditional scientists tried to ignore or dismiss has become more robust every day. What will replace the materialist paradigm? And how will that new paradigm change how we think about... everything? In this groundbreaking online event, some of the foremost thinkers of our day will look at the implications of startling evidence that materialistic science cannot explain, such as non-locality – that consciousness is connected at a distance, instantly – and what they are calling the Akashic Field – a kind of record-keeping function for the cosmos. They will look at how the cumulative body of evidence forces a major, even historic shift in how we see the nature of reality. Consciousness comes to the foreground, not as an evolutionary afterthought but a prime mover and causative factor. How might this reshape the paradigm at the very foundations of science? And how might it lead to the evolution of our culture and our consciousness? Join us for scintillating insights, powerful dialogue, and a spirit of adventure into the unknown. You’ll hear powerful insights from pre-eminent panelists, including scientists, philosophers, and futurists who are in public dialogue for the first time: Ervin Laszlo – Author of more than 80 books and one of the most prodigious, systemic thinkers of our day Ken Wilber – Renowned integral philosopher who has bridged worlds from spiritual practice to complexity theory to create a comprehensive map of our Kosmos that includes our interiors Barbara Marx Hubbard – Celebrated as a visionary and futurist for her ability to see future trends and possibilities Riane Eisler – Bestselling author, social scientist, pioneer of the “partnership paradigm” Duane Elgin – Futurist, social visionary, author of five books, former senior social scientist with Stanford Research Institute This teleseminar event is completely free. So invite your friends and allies and skeptics as well to join you for what is sure to be 60 minutes of brilliant and provocative insights that give you a powerful glimpse of what the science of the next millennium just may look like. Even if you can’t make the call live, do sign up and you’ll receive access to a recording. _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net -- __________________________________________________ Herman F. Greene 2516 Winningham Road Chapel Hill, NC 27516 919-942-4358 (ph & fax) hfgreenenc@gmail.com -- __________________________________________________ Herman F. Greene 2516 Winningham Road Chapel Hill, NC 27516 919-942-4358 (ph & fax) hfgreenenc@gmail.com -- __________________________________________________ Herman F. Greene 2516 Winningham Road Chapel Hill, NC 27516 919-942-4358 (ph & fax) hfgreenenc@gmail.com _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net