Anyone who has read The United Methodist Discipline understands that there is NOT going to be a schism, because every church has a trust clause on their real property giving the property to the denomination should they withdraw. That's a Constitutional clause, meaning it cannot be legislated away by a chagrined majority. Follow the money. Dissenting churches are NOT going to walk away from property (though I'll admit, we might be better off walking away from many of these old decrepit church buildings.) It's NOT going to happen! United Methodists will walk the fence on this issue until every state in the Union, or the Federal government, have effected the kind of sea change of opinion which wil make us change if we want to survive at all. Remember The Sacred Canopy, by sociologist Peter Berger. Churches make official changes to 'rubber stamp' the culture. The United Methodist Church is not the wedgeblade. That's why we all left the UMC way back when, but then went back to build a pension. On Saturday, June 14, 2014 5:03 PM, Ellie Stock <elliestock@aol.com> wrote: Hi Mark and Mary, Thought you might be interested in this latest string of emails from the OE list serve. Read from the bottom up. Ellie -----Original Message----- From: jlepps@pc.jaring.my via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: George Holcombe <grholcombe@gmail.com> Cc: ICA/OE List Serves <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sat, Jun 14, 2014 4:54 pm Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas Thanks for your thoughtful and historical response, Marshall. Your comment, "I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's a HUGE distraction from the REAL missional issues that the church should be struggling to address" is the only point I was attempting to make. Certainly I agree that same sex marriages should be honored in United Methodism. It would be a shame for the church to split over this. It has forced me to distinguish between the Church as institution and the Church as movement. The former exists to enable the latter, but often it lags behind. It even tends to function to perpetuate itself rather than its cause. When that happens, it's due for a reform. It may even be that the institutional church is wrestling with the major issue of accommodating diversity that affects societies around the world. If it's at that level, then maybe this is not a non-issue. Thanks for bringing up this level of the conversation. The coffee smells like Illy latte! John At 03:02 PM 6/14/2014, George Holcombe wrote: Dear Marshall, I don�t believe John is "talking out of school.� I�m sure he can speak for himself, but LBGT for our society is a non-issue, it�s over. Gay marriage will be the law of the land. Every day the LBGT community is gaining ground. For the younger generation it�s a non-issue. The UMC is just running into a stone wall. It would be much better if they let loose of the prejudice and got on with the business at hand. Climate Change, poverty, corptocracy, just to name a few need action. I am glad to see our Board of Pensions removing investments from companies that support Israel, but there�s lots more stuff we need to be about.
We have a good bunch of local clergy who stand with us who�ve signed the
pledge. The �Conservatives� (although I�m not sure that�s the correct appellation) are going to scream their heads off, but time is marching on. For the UMC a real LGBT issue is going to be how we support the gays in Africa and elsewhere and deal with a false interpretation of scripture, discipline and tradition that leads to hatred and violence.
It�s happening. Reality is staring us in the face.
George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 grholcombe@gmail.com
"Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no
power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Jun 14, 2014, at 3:01 PM, W. J. via OE
<oe@lists.wedgeblade.net > wrote:
George Holcombe is one of the
Marshall Jones 10 Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings of Same-Sex Couples
10 Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings ... Even though their denomination's policy officially prohibits clergy from officiating at the wedding of any same-sex couple at the risk of losing
View on unitedmethod... Preview by Yahoo
On Saturday, June 14, 2014 12:38 PM, W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net > wrote:
Methodism seems to be teetering on the brink of rebellion, confrontation, and schism.You can follow the rapid escalation of Methodist conflict in
Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage
Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage Evan as more states legalize gay marriage, United Methodist leaders
appear at an impasse.
View on www.usatoda... Preview by Yahoo http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2014-03/time-split http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/08/conservative-church-leaders-co... http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/02/conversation-good-newss-tom-la... http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/01/good-news-releases-statement-c...
In the light of the current 'conversation' in Methodist circles cited above, I find John Epps' characterization of the key conflict over the Discipline as a "non-issue" very puzzling.
If I were a betting man, I'd bet about 50 million bucks that Bill McElvaney, Tom Ogletree, and Bishops McLee, Johnson, and Talbert (as well as many others) would NOT call 'ceremonies of homosexual union' a "non-issue" for United Methodists.
I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's a HUGE distraction from the REAL missional issues that the church should be struggling to address.
But when I look through the keyhole of this so-called "non-issue" that threatens denominational schism (similar to
The 'Good News' contingent is going whole hog to use Legalism,
Literalism, and Authoritarianism to defrock noncompliant Methodist clergy, retired seminary presidents, and bishops. This is about instilling fear in bishops and clergy alike by using the Discipline to crack down on dissenters.
So with all respect due to John, I cannot call this a
"non-issue".
Our profound cultural and theological biases around 'heteronormativity'
are as much of a HUGE issue as our biases around the racial inferiority of people of color and female submission to male dominance (not to mention the economic imperialism of the "1%").
I grew up in what had been the Methodist Episcopal Church, South until
I mention this ancient history to point out that the cultural legacy
enshrined in the 'Good News' version of conservative southern Methodism is the legacy of slavery and 'White Supremacy' that their white male Methodist ancestors fought and died to preserve forever.
Bishop Francis Asbury (whose name is legendary to this day in western
North Carolina) wrote in his journal that on 11/30/1810 he spent the night (and very likely preached in the attic chapel) in the house Jacob Shook built in 1795 in what is now Clyde, NC near Lake Junaluska.
Friday our troubles began at a foaming, roaring stream, which hid the
rocks. At Catahouche I walked over a log, but then O the mountains- height after height and five miles over! After crossing many streams and after losing ourselves in the woods for a time, about 9 o'clock at night we gratefully came to Vater Shucks.
If you visit Jacob Shook's house today, you can see a handwritten
receipt for the purchase of several slaves. After he died in 1837 his house and farmland was purchased by members of the Welch family, who together had about 150 slaves. I mention this to illustrate that slavery was considered economically 'necessary' and normalized by this part of white Methodism as God's Will for Africans. Even Asbury failed to object,
In Clyde and throughout Haywood County the heritage of slavery is almost
totally invisible today. The slave cabins are long gone, as are the descendants of slaves who worked the plantations. The county is about 96% white, 1% black, and only 1/2% Native American.
The cultural reality of white male dominance is so pervasive, normalized,
and unconsciously internalized that residents and visitors alike don't even think about it. When they visit nearby Cherokee, NC, they focus more on the lure of the casino than on the hidden-in-plain-sight reality of 'ethnic cleansing' that forced the vast majority of the Cherokee Nation to endure a death march to Oklahoma. Even this tragic history has been reduced to summer theatre for tourists.
Since 1972 United Methodist clergy have been required to enforce the
standards of 'heteronormativity' to eliminate what Aquinas called the 'vice against nature', which includes any and every sexual act except for heterosexual intercourse in the famous missionary position (reserved exclusively for those legally and heterosexually married, of course!). Aquinas seems unconcerned with the fact that 70% of women can't orgasm
Reserving 'holy matrimony' for certain classes of people makes everybody
else's sexuality second class, promoting 'sexual cleansing' in the church.
The Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism of the Methodist system
leads to a Taliban concept of justice that inevitably exacts severe
Texas 'rebels' their ordination, t... the following articles: the schism over slavery in 1844), what I see looming are the VERY SAME theological/cultural issues that define the cultural rift (I accidentally typed 'risk'--there's that too!) with the Tea Party radical right wing. the year before I was born. That geographic contingent in reunited Methodism retained its political and cultural clout as the lily-white Southeastern Jurisdiction until the Central Jurisdiction was dissolved in 1968 as a condition of union with the EUB's. though he denounced slavery and pleaded for abolition with George Washington. that way. Perhaps he was concerned only that women did their procreative duty, whether they enjoyed it or not. punishment of violators. Methodists exemplify the tyranny of majority rule with zero tolerance for minority views within the system.
If your upcoming wedding would be welcomed in a Methodist Church, that's
because you are enjoying hetero privilege (and probably taking it for granted).
White male supremacy takes sexual privileging for granted. If you owned
slaves, you could totally control and manipulate them sexually. You could have sexual intercourse and father 'illegitimate' children with people of
color who were coerced or bullied, or who used your sexual interest to acquire personal benefits. Often family members could not protect them. You could invoke 'Racial Purity' to constrain and manipulate white women sexually. You could demand 'monogamy' from your wife to control her sexual interest in other people, while you ignored that standard in your own behavior. >> >>Now the likes of Maxie Dunham and Fred Phelps simply reflect the mindset of white male sexual privilege. Since Loving vs. Virginia they can't get away with railing against 'miscegenation.' Now their last refuge is their obsession with the evil of non-procreative sexual coupling symbolized in 'ceremonies of homosexual union.' >> >>And yet John Epps calls this a "non-issue." I say: wake up and smell the coffee, John! >> >>Marshall Jones >> >>From: JOHN L. EPPS <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> >>To: W. J. <synergi@yahoo.com> >>Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:14 PM >>Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas >> >>Thanks Marshall. >> >>When I was at Perkins, Bill McElvaney, Bill Holmes, and the late Will >>Bailey were the three Dallas "role models" for the forward-looking >>theologs. All three were students of Joe. It's good to see he's still >>pushing the envelope, though it's a shame that this non-issue takes so >>much energy. >> >>Quoting "W. J." <synergi@yahoo.com>: >> >>> more Methodist news from Texas: >>> >>http://um-insight.net/issues-section/supervisory-response-under-way-for-rev-mcelvaney/ >>> >>> Marshall >> >> >> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------- >>This e-mail has been sent via JARING webmail at http://www.jaring.my >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>OE mailing list >>OE@lists.wedgeblade.net >>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>OE mailing list >>OE@lists.wedgeblade.net >>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net