Of course there are ‘abuses on both sides’ as people are people. As JD Vance knows, mimetic desire (I want what you have or I think you have) leads to violence. Violence historically is resolved by scapegoating and othering a relatively impotent internal group or identifying an external enemy, forming bonds among competitors (the enemy of my enemy is my friend). JD Vance’s source, the French-American historian, literary critic, and social philosopher René Girard, however suggested that Christianity shows the emptiness of scapegoating by the murder of an innocent victim by the cultural and political powers to reduce the violence between the two (from that day Pilate and the Sanhedrin got along). According to René Girard's mimetic theory, Jesus is the ultimate scapegoat whose crucifixion uniquely unmasks the violent, hidden foundation of all human culture. By revealing the mechanism of collective violence, Jesus offers humanity a way to break the cyclical power of mimetic rivalry. The Innocent Victim didn’t stay dead. (Anaistemi – Stood up again). So the question we were trained to raise: What is the vision? What is the underlying contradiction? What tactics can address it? This is so far beyond ‘sides’ that the word is irrelevant in our context. My overall vision is that we follow the ‘Altipipple’ concept JWM proposed: All the world belongs to all the people. All the economic, cultural and political gifts. Secondly, it is Etzioni’s work on Active Society: An active society is one that can envision an inclusive future and design and implement steps to move in that direction. Contradictions are fairly clearly stated in the document Jim provided. What’s left is what we will do about them. Choosing ‘sides’ instead of working for solutions seems to accelerate the contradictions. Bill p.s. – for more on Girard, ask AI: How did Rene Girard understand the role of Jesus in mimetic desire? From: Susan Fertig <sfertig@blueskytech.us> Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2025 12:12 PM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: w.schlesinger@pvida.net Subject: RE: [Oe List ...] Undocumented Immigrants Your later email elucidates this. I don’t need more information. Just as you are unwilling to hear the other side, I am probably not going to change my opinion even if multiple abuses are cited—there are multiple abuses on both sides. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 From: OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> > On Behalf Of Bill Schlesinger via OE Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2025 1:01 PM To: 'Order Ecumenical Community' <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > Cc: w.schlesinger@pvida.net <mailto:w.schlesinger@pvida.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Undocumented Immigrants I do. Would you like to speak to the observers who document them? Presbyterian Border Ministry is one; local clergy from United Methodist, Catholic and Presbyterian churches are another. Or - ? Bill Schlesinger From: OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> > On Behalf Of Susan Fertig via OE Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2025 10:54 AM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > Cc: Susan Fertig <sfertig@blueskytech.us <mailto:sfertig@blueskytech.us> > Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Undocumented Immigrants I don't know of any such cases. Susan Get Outlook for Android <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://aka.ms/AAb9ysg%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw2KlyiUWw5TQgJDRHOBQIRH&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw0rk-OKx3-LSCFOrtWHfP8U> _____ From: OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> > on behalf of Seth Longacre via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2025 12:47:24 PM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > Cc: Seth Longacre <sethlongacre@gmail.com <mailto:sethlongacre@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Undocumented Immigrants Then Susan, how do you explain people being detained and deported when they show up, following the law and the direct request of the government, to their green card interview or another immigration process appointment? They have not been asked to exit, they have not remained on an expired visa, they have not committed any criminal offense (and in many cases, not even a civil offense). Seth T. Longacre Ashland, OR Unapologetically committed to equality, diversity, compassion, love, and justice. ———-O0ooo— ———–(——)— ————)–-/—- ————(_/- —-ooo0O—- —-(——)—- —–\-–(– ——\_)- On Oct 8, 2025, at 12:37, Susan Fertig via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote: Failure to exit and remaining on an expired visa is against the law. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 From: ballardica@gmail.com <mailto:ballardica@gmail.com> <ballardica@gmail.com <mailto:ballardica@gmail.com> > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2025 2:43 PM To: Susan Fertig <sfertig@blueskytech.us <mailto:sfertig@blueskytech.us> > Cc: 'Order Ecumenical Community' <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > Subject: Undocumented Immigrants Hi Susan, For your edification, please read below. By Brett Snider, Esq. | Last updated on May 31, 2019 Unlawful Presence Is Not a Crime Some may assume that all immigrants who are in the United States without legal status must have committed improper entry. This simply isn't the case. Many foreign nationals legally enter the country on a valid work or travel visa, but fail to exit <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/visa-expiration-date.html%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw0bDG_TNshNfPx5CEAo-88H&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw1RFQJkdSjfj974pbfDFJ37> before their visa expires for a variety of reasons. But mere unlawful presence in the country is not a crime. It is a violation of federal immigration law to remain in the country without legal authorization, but this violation is punishable by civil penalties, not criminal. Chief among these civil penalties is <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.findlaw.com/immigration/deportation-removal.html%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw03TuSNLJjILnsEzX0gqhHJ&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw0srMgrWcuJGh21NISNG1Q6> deportation or removal, where an unlawful resident may be detained and removed from the country. Unlawful presence can also have <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://corporate.findlaw.com/human-resources/ins-reinterprets-unlawful-presence-again-ameliorates-provisions.html%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw19r9Idrbi7tYINe78VlM9Y&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw08y5f0OSI_JmUqg4xbtHiR> negative consequences for a resident who may seek to gain re-entry into the United States, or permanent residency. Both improper entry and unlawful presence should be avoided by any immigrant to the United States, but an illegal alien cannot be criminally charged or incarcerated simply for being undocumented. To learn more, check out FindLaw's section on <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.findlaw.com/immigration.html%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1TDuAXDs2DhWOR2CXVJ7uR&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw2-4ggGHDlj3azh1SyXqMLu> Immigration Law. Jack Ballard From: Susan Fertig <sfertig@blueskytech.us <mailto:sfertig@blueskytech.us> > Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2025 8:18 AM To: ballardica@gmail.com <mailto:ballardica@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol 163, Issue 6 Yes. They have disobeyed the law in getting in illegally. Susan Get Outlook for Android <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://aka.ms/AAb9ysg%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw2KlyiUWw5TQgJDRHOBQIRH&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw0rk-OKx3-LSCFOrtWHfP8U> _____ From: ballardica@gmail.com <mailto:ballardica@gmail.com> <ballardica@gmail.com <mailto:ballardica@gmail.com> > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2025 11:24:39 PM To: 'Order Ecumenical Community' <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > Cc: Susan Fertig <sfertig@blueskytech.us <mailto:sfertig@blueskytech.us> > Subject: RE: [Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol 163, Issue 6 Hi Susan, Do you consider undocumented immigrants criminals? Jack Ballard From: OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> > On Behalf Of Susan Fertig via OE Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2025 4:21 PM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > Cc: Susan Fertig <sfertig@blueskytech.us <mailto:sfertig@blueskytech.us> > Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol 163, Issue 6 But IF (and I clearly say IF) we are harboring criminals in our facility, then ICE has the right to come in and remove them. I doubt we are harboring criminals, so it’s a moot point. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 From: OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> > On Behalf Of Randy Williams via OE Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2025 9:11 AM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > Cc: Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com <mailto:randycw1938@gmail.com> >; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol 163, Issue 6 I greatly appreciate Bill’s factual analysis with the corroborating information and agree fully that this is not a simple situation. But to make it as simple as possible in this situation, the ICA notice at the front door says something like, if you have a legal right granted by the courts to be here, then enter and conduct your business lawfully while here. If you don’t have the legal right to be here, then stay the hell out. I can’t imagine anything more American than that. Randy Williams On Oct 7, 2025, at 8:13 AM, Bill Schlesinger via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote: 1. A partial answer: You asked: “how is it that people who entered our country illegally have any rights--due process or other?” The rights afforded to undocumented persons in the United States are derived from the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, which guarantee due process and equal protection to all "persons" within U.S. borders, not just citizens. While the Constitution doesn't specifically mention undocumented immigrants, the Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld that the word "person" applies to them as well. I’m confused by your statement, ‘The people that are singled out are not citizens.’ U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) has detained U.S. citizens, sometimes erroneously and in violation of the law. While federal policy explicitly states that ICE cannot use its civil immigration authority to arrest or detain U.S. citizens, reports and lawsuits have documented instances of this happening. Wrongful detentions and legal action 1. Government Accountability Office report: A 2021 GAO report found that between fiscal year 2015 and early 2020, ICE arrested 674 potential U.S. citizens, detained 121, and deported 70. The GAO also found insufficient record-keeping, suggesting the numbers may be higher. 2. Recent lawsuits and allegations: As of late 2025, new lawsuits and media reports have detailed multiple wrongful detentions. For example, a U.S.-born construction worker sued the federal government in October 2025 after being detained twice by immigration agents during workplace raids. The perception is that ICE is racially profiling people rather than developing information and acting on it regarding individuals. In El Paso, ICE routinely detains persons showing up for their immigration hearings in compliance with their court orders. They are either detained in disregard of their compliance, or told that their applications have been ‘administratively terminated’ with no due process. Desperate people do desperate things. However, a substantial body of research indicates that undocumented persons generally commit violent offenses at significantly lower rates than U.S.-born citizens. The assertion that immigrants are more prone to crime is not supported by evidence. In fact, national and state-level studies consistently show that undocumented immigrants have a lower propensity for both violent and property crimes. Key findings from research 1. Texas arrest data: A 2020 study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences used unique data from the Texas Department of Public Safety (the only state that records criminal arrests by immigration status) to compare felony arrest rates. It found that between 2012 and 2018: 1. U.S.-born citizens were over two times more likely to be arrested for violent crimes than undocumented immigrants. 2. Arrest rates for specific violent felonies, like homicide and assault, were considerably lower for undocumented immigrants. 2. National Incarceration Rates: A 2025 analysis by the <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/immigrants-cut-victimization-rates-boost-crime-reporting%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw3o3Z5WZIguIr9pI64LxeH9&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw3N4ZQnfS7KLSyGLVT7UBt-> Cato Institute using census data found that undocumented immigrants have a lower incarceration rate than native-born Americans. 1. In 2023, the incarceration rate for undocumented immigrants was 613 per 100,000, compared to 1,221 per 100,000 for native-born Americans. 2. Even when factoring in detention for immigration violations, the incarceration rate for undocumented immigrants remains lower than that of native-born citizens. 3. FBI data and historical trends: A 2024 analysis by the <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/fact-sheet/debunking-myth-immigrants-and-crime/%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw0gfFhckvD2g9dvZlEySmue&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw0XQpn93883PYe_ohQIr3CY> American Immigration Council found that as the share of immigrants in the U.S. population increased between 1980 and 2022, the overall crime rate decreased significantly. During this period, the violent crime rate dropped by 34.5% 1. You said, ‘the sheer volume of trafficked individuals who were victimized by those “importing” them into our country.’ I live in El Paso. Coyotes – the ‘traffickers’ – have little regard for the people they transport and have often left them to die. Knowing this, people still apply to their services even today. They do this out of desperation – and faith. They ‘trust in God’ to see them through in the face of gangs and often terror in their home situations (not all regions are alike) and see no alternative but finding ‘safe haven’ in the USA. Unfortunately neither political party has acted to create a humane and functional system to allow legal entry under internationally accepted asylum standards. The system has been politicized with ‘special access’ for those in favor of the ruling party(ies). And this changes arbitrarily (see what’s happened with Haitians now being sent back to chaos after being here for 30 years). Lost children – many are DACA recipients and being told that they must now go to a country where they do not speak the language, to parents ill prepared to receive them. This is not a simple situation. FWIW Bill Schlesinger (915) 490-6148 Cell From: OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> > On Behalf Of Susan Fertig via OE Sent: Monday, October 6, 2025 7:41 PM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > Cc: Susan Fertig <sfertig@blueskytech.us <mailto:sfertig@blueskytech.us> > Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol 163, Issue 6 Larry, I respect your points. My concern is based on: 2. the hordes of people tearing down the barricades put up to keep them out in the Biden Administration 3. the numbers of violent criminals and not so violent criminals that make it difficult to discern who is and who isn’t 4. the sheer volume of trafficked individuals who were victimized by those “importing” them into our country 5. the number of lost, unaccompanied children who have never been recovered and who should be sent back to their parents My lack of concern is based on: 2. how is it that people who entered our country illegally have any rights--due process or other? 3. How is it that we are not worried about ICE officers being identified when the hordes of violent protesters and those who openly threaten ICE wear masks routinely? I do take issue with your assertion that “No matter how many white men go on killing sprees in the US we are not singled out…” I would state that ”No matter how many black or brown or white men…” The people that are singled out are not American citizens. I often find Trump’s rhetoric offensive. I often find he overstates for effect, which I don’t condone. I often find him bragging, which I abhor. That said, I support him as President—God is big enough that He can use anybody, no matter how flawed, for His purposes. I often find the rhetoric used against the “other side” abhorrent as well—to talk of openly supporting killing anyone who doesn’t agree with them or suggests an idea that is different is horrible. Susan Susan Fertig-Dykes And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11 From: OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> > On Behalf Of Lawrence Philbrook via OE Sent: Monday, October 06, 2025 9:18 PM To: oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Lawrence Philbrook <icalarry@gmail.com <mailto:icalarry@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol 163, Issue 6 Susan you raise a valid question The ICE challenge in America and the ICA response, what is the frame of reference? Yes there is broad agreement that too many illegal and unvetted immigrants were allowed into the US. Especially those who committed crimes in their own country and in the US. These people are officially the publicized target of the ICE raids. However Current numbers - 42,755 out of 59,762—or 71.5% held in ICE detention have no criminal conviction according to data current as of September 21, 2025. ICE has responsibility to apprehend and return people who are in the US illegally. They have a difficult and sometimes dangerous job. It has been made more complicated by the political climate and expectations placed on them by consecutive administrations. Their legal status can literally change day to day based on the administration withdrawing legal status that had been given earlier. The current administration does these changes overnight making it very difficult for the “illegals” to know they are illegal. This can affect hundreds of thousands of people with each decision. The manner in which they implement their job is in question 1. Do they follow due process laws which are required in our country whether you are a citizen or not 2. Do they appear masked, weapons drawn and without warrants 3. Do they only stop and arrest illegal immigrants (the worst of the worst criminals) or stop and hold all people who speak Spanish and look like they are immigrants or are at places where “illegals” look for employment to make sure they have caught and deported enough people for their quota. 4. The consequence being American Citizens and legal immigrants being handcuffed and held hours or days - disrupting their lives especially those who live paycheck to paycheck simply to make the officers catching process simpler. 5. Their leadership is not making it easier to believe they are not intentionally harassing American citizens who “fit the description" 6. American citizens who are children are being deported without due process or a care structure. As an old white American Male I can not imagine this happening to me. No matter how many white men go on killing sprees in the US we are not singled out as an issue. Evelyn being Japanese American has family history about the US sending troops to round them up and send them to camps. ICE and the republican politicians bragging about The Aligator Alcatraz with most of the people inside being without any other criminal actions, does not stimulate trust in the system. Am I missing something that you are seeing that is different than the above? With respect, Larry CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents. 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