Jaime, The issue Bill is pointing to is what we find in the States now as we live in a deadlocked deliberative process. Every day on my Facebook are quotes “You are a liberal” that do nothing to forward the process of change. It is an idealogical statement that demonizes the alternative position. I’m not talking about compromise, but the reality that they have no real idea as to how change actually happens. It’s a win-lose game that is being played. Then the “other side” will also set up straw men arguments that demonizes the “liberal” position. Back and forth it goes and nothing gets done. I had a two hour conversation with a seat mate on my flight to Mexico who was a “good old boy” from Houston. Had we talked about these present two-sides only issues I’m sure we would not have had much to talk about. But we talked about common concerns, the things in our own lives that were meaningful and genuine. I’m sure he and I could talk through how we might approach change in some new ways because we had developed a degree of respect and trust. I find there are just two many people who feel “my way or no way” (on both sides) that cause people to mistrust and see them as threats to their ideas. That is the “liberal” that Bill is talking about. If you want to redefine what you are pointing to by “liberal” that’s fine. But in today’s world here in the States the stakes are firmly planted in the ground and I, for one, don’t find them to be effective in bringing about a new human community. Love your posts! Jack On Oct 2, 2014, at 9:29 PM, via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
"A rose by any other name is still a rose," or so, we once thought. No more. We look at reality and give it a name, not the other way around. I consider myself a liberal (though that term no longer serves its old function) and I never come close to Bill's description of one.
Nancy, my brand of being a liberal looks at reality, and where social change is happening and I see it necessary because what has been conserved no longer works, then I inject my life "into the barbwires of history", as it were.
John Epps' liberal heresy was a necessary corrective at the time he wrote it, in the same way as Order wisdom from which most of our operating ways derived from, was in many respect, not only timely but some, even ahead of its time. But dichotomies enflame prejudices and passion, e.g., liberal and conservatives, and are not ultimately helpful.
Wiegel's question is rhetorical. Even elementary grades do not use "true or false" questions anymore.
This group taught me to describe IS first before giving it a name. So, thank you for your question of clarity. But I would no call Bill's folks "liberal".
Jaime in China
-----Original Message----- From: via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: oe <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Fri, Oct 3, 2014 2:15 am Subject: OE Digest, Vol 31, Issue 3
Send OE mailing list submissions to oe@lists.wedgeblade.net
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to oe-request@lists.wedgeblade.net
You can reach the person managing the list at oe-owner@lists.wedgeblade.net
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of OE digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: [Dialogue] Wrong about social change?? (Bill Parker via OE)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2014 12:24:09 -0500 From: Bill Parker via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: "Nancy Trask" <nancytrask@rocketmail.com>, "James Wiegel" <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>, "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>, "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Wrong about social change?? Message-ID: <13B60BA8ABC24A728D017A5C3B516DAC@BillParkerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Nancy, Sorry for the delay. I just now saw your request for a "little more" on the fallacy of the liberal form of doing. Years ago John Epps presented a paper on the "liberal heresy". It is archived so you can get access to it. He described the dynamic very well.
Today I see and experience a type of this "heresy" broadly among some liberal and progressive people. They see the problem, understand what causes it, grasp that it is systemic in nature, find who to blame for it, then resort to symbolic gestures of outrage, to themselves and sometimes to whomever is to be blamed. They then go on with their lives as normal because of the symbolic gesture they feel like they have addressed the issue. They do this without any effort, or even commitment, to dealing with the systemic situation underlying the problem, building transitional models, or acknowledging a movement is essential before anything can happen to alter and sustain the situation.
Hope this adds a little to the phrase.
Bill
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nancy Trask" <nancytrask@rocketmail.com> To: "James Wiegel" <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>; "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; "Bill Parker" <bparker175@cox.net> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2014 12:37 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Oe List ...] Wrong about social change??
Hey Bill - Say a little more about "This is the fallacy of the "liberal" form of doing." Nancy Trask
-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 9/29/14, Bill Parker via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Oe List ...] Wrong about social change?? To: "James Wiegel" <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>, "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>, "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: Monday, September 29, 2014, 11:10 AM
If only it were that simple. Doing social change work and getting social change done are two very different realities. Social change comes out of a movement toward a different future which shows up from a multitude of independent faces from the human community. Holding elected representives accountable is certainly one aspect of that but its "tail is not large enough to wag the dog." Also, social change is more than just change but it is change that cannot be reversed as soon as people's interest moves on to something else. This is the fallacy of the "liberal" form of doing.
----- Original Message -----
From: James Wiegel via OE To: Colleague Dialogue ; Order Ecumenical Community Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2014 1:17 PM Subject: [Oe List ...] Wrong about social change??
"I've been doing social change work for more than 40 years, and I know that organizing people to hold our elected officials accountable is the only thing that actually makes change." Wenonah Hauter.
True or false. Please comment
Jim Wiegel
Those who have the most rigorously tested answers will not drive the future of learning; those who pursue the most meaningful questions will. Mathew Abrams
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353 Tel. 011-623-936-8671 or 011-623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP? Facilitation Methods: Sep 9-10, Nov 18-19, 2014 Click to watch video. ToP? Strategic Planning: Oct 7-8, 2014 Click to learn more. Facilitation Mastery: The Mastering the Technology of Participation program begins in Oakland on Nov 12-14, 2014 Click to watch video. For online registration go to http://www.top-training.net The AZ ToP? Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, 1-4 pm, starting again on Sept 5th at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP? courses
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
------------------------------
End of OE Digest, Vol 31, Issue 3 ********************************* _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net