Dear ones, I've been following this most interesting discussion with the hope that theological discussion is wide enough to embrace our various ways of experiencing and talking about the "spirit". I would say that a large number of the clients I see will tell me that they are not "religious" but they are "spiritual" I have come to understand that they often think of the church building and its beliefs as "religious". By spiritual, they usually mean they have found other ways to speak of how they journey through their lives. Two remembrances come to me, especially at this time. # 1 Experience - A visit to my sister's family when I was extremely ill and deeply depressed and sorrowful. I sat in my misery looking at a family of politically and religiously conservative, Pentecostal Christians, who's beliefs I had been highly critical of, filled with joy and love for each other, for me (their worrisome sister who they felt might border on the satanic), and for those whom they cared for outside of their immediate family. As I watched this amazing and delightful group of people, it dawned on my critical self, that who am I to judge how other people express the relationship they have to that which is beyond most explanation or description? The "religious" or spiritual is about personal experience - NOT philosophical or theological rightness or wrongness. Throughout history, people have tried to find words to describe their own experiences of the awe and wonder of life and of humanity in all its intelligence and murkiness of mind; in all its greatness and baseness. And the very powerful thought came to me, "What if NONE of us ever truly enters the so-called "pearly gates" (that is, grows up spiritually) until ALL of us, regardless of creed or theological "correctness" (be it ICA-correctness or Pentecostal correctness) does it together hand in hand. #2 Experience - Taking part in the Methodist service of a church in Columbus Ohio in which Eileen and George were very active. I, who basically am bored with and even dislike church services and the language in it (including the Daily Office) was awed by this urban church in the midst of the poorest of the poor. Its congregation had just about every culture, life-style and economic class sitting together, having the time of their lives. This church, had innumerable social and economic programs for the community, a fantastic gospel and jazz band and choir leading people in amazing singing, and people standing up and witnessing about what had happened in their lives that week. And what was most amazing to me is that each one spoke about their experience in language that they felt expressed their "experience" - about as many possible ways you can imagine, from the most conservative religious expressions to the vaguest and most uncertain language. And everyone, regardless of how they, themselves might have described it, said "amen!" This is one church I will not forget. It's too bad that there seem so few of them truly serving the people in their own community. This church goes OUT to the people and invites them IN, as well - not too many congregations do I find doing both. I would hope our theological and philosophical discussions are just as expressive. In peace, Del Change of any sort requires courage. From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 7:27 PM To: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc. Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au <mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> Dear Folks, especially Jack, I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer..? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom..Just my observation from down here in Oz. Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories. I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful. Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it. . and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation.. A word about prayer. Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation. Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney. Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc., Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint. All the best to y'all, and with grace, peace, and love, from Isobel. On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote: There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a 'download' arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn't open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well. Jack On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote: I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in? Doris Hahn _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net