My question in the researching was: “Bud Tillinghast asked: "Are there presently resources out there, especially in books, that would point us toward what the FutureChurch would look like or need to be?”
Good question. What have you found out so far about Christianity's decline? And why more so in what was formerly known as the West? 1. My attention was drawn to the book "The Not Yet God" I liked the "not yet" part and asked AI for a summary but did not really understand it. Here is the description from Amazon: "We are a species between axial periods. Thus, our religious myths are struggling to find new connections in a global, ecological order. Delio proposes the new myth of relational holism; that is, the search for a new connection to divinity in an age of quantum physics, evolution, and pluralism. The idea of relational holism is one that is rooted in the God-world relationship, beginning with the Book of Genesis, but finds its real meaning in quantum physics and the renewed relationship between mind and matter. Our story, therefore, will traverse across the fields of science, scripture, theology, history, culture and psychology. Our guides for a new myth of relational holism are the psychoanalyst Carl Jung, and the Jesuit scientist-theologian Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. The complex human can no longer be simplified to one view or another: one must see the whole of our existence or one does not see at all.2. John Amandola's book, No Harbor. This from Amazon: You have left or are considering leaving evangelicalism. You have experienced hurt and disillusionment because of Christian nationalism, racism, the marginalization of women and sexual minorities, abuse and acceptance of abuse, and denial of science. You’ve seen authoritarian leaders silence the voices of those who desire change. So, you are finally done with the church. Having left the harbor, you may find yourself in a sea of doubt and confusion without a spiritual home. You long for community. But leaving the church does not necessarily mean you want to leave Jesus. No Harbor is a guide for healthy deconstruction in community. We are not trying to reach you or win you back. There are no apologetics within these pages. Instead, we are here to help you move forward. The approach of No Harbor is to deconstruct hurtful and toxic theology that has led to the dysfunctions that have driven so many away from the church. Then, we will make course corrections that recapture the ancient beauty of Christian faith in a way that works in the 21st century. Our goal is to facilitate your healing and to walk with you as you rebuild a more lifegiving and joyful faith than ever before. Jim Wiegel Theunknown is what is. And to be frightened of it is what sends everybodyscurrying around chasing dreams, illusions, wars, peace, love, hate, allthat. Unknown is what is. Accept that it's unknown, and it's plainsailing. John Lennon 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com On Monday, April 14, 2025 at 12:41:42 AM MST, rev.bud@mac.com <rev.bud@mac.com> wrote: Bill, I find this helpful. Can anyone name the "world church meeting” that turned down the Order? I find the paper by John Epps that Jim Wieger sent me to be inciteful. It helps me see that the Order continued theological reflection in and beyond existentialism. To give some clarity as to why I am currently dialoguing with you, let me explain what I have been doing. For the last several years I have been involved in doing a research project. As I am sure no one would deny, the church has been in a long decline, in both membership and in the influencing of its culture. This decline has only been in the West; in the rest of the world the church has been growing. (See The ext Christendom by Jenkins.) People in the Order ought to be aware of this decline. After all, the Order set out with the purpose of renewing the church long ago. My question in the researching was: “Are there presently resources out there, especially in books, that would point us toward what the FutureChurch would look like or need to be?” One issue that has come up in a number of books is the need for the church to change from a model of getting members to developing disciples, in order to fulfil its role in missio Dei (God’s mission in the world. See my blog,Teaching Paper 3 https://budtillinghast4.wordpress.com/2024/12/05/3-mission-as-missio-dei/) It was at this point that I began to recall my time in relation to the Order with its Imaginal Education, especially your disciple-creating tools of Religious and Cultural Studies. And I began to wonder if there are any of those of you on these lists who would be interested in gathering resources for the FutureChurch? After all, it was you folk who taught me that it was better to work corporately rather than individually. Grace and peace, Bud On Sunday, April 13, 2025 at 04:45:14 PM MST, w.schlesinger@pvida.net <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> wrote: I think Bud says about the turn to the world, “In so doing they decided to emphasize Cultural Studies over Religious Studies”. In my memory it had less to do with studies and more to do with strategy. Joe Mathews came back from a world church meeting that declined to confirm the Order Ecumenical as an entity. That and other dynamics led to a decision to shift from focusing on the local church as the change agent in history (a la HRN) to a direct facilitation method in the community, public and private sectors with LENS and then ICA Facilitation. Along with the Global Demonstration Projects and the ‘whistle points,’ the ICA became a strategic attempt to create a consensus based societal direction. Many of us took those methods and models into a variety of corporate, community and non-profit entities. That in turn involved looking at the dynamics that created and sustained a context that was derived from RS-1 but expressed in non-theological language. Formal Christian language and symbolism had become a restricting dynamic in addressing and engaging a wider audience. My take anyway. And apologies for the wordy rant in my previous response. I get that way sometimes. FWIW Bill Schlesinger On 11 Apr 2025, at 23:39, James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: 1. Did we actually encounter / (re)discover the other world incthe midst of this world (the realities of mystery, consciousness, care and tranquillity as present in our lives and world) or did we just say that?? 2. See below the words for “The Mystery is Everywhere”. Do any of you have a recording of it being sung? I can hear Mary Warren Moffett singing it in my head . Thanks Jim Wiegel “…the long work of turning their lives into a celebration is not easy. Come and let us talk“. The Sunflowers. Mary Oliver Begin forwarded message:
Thanks, Jim. Helpful resources. James
On 04/15/2025 10:57 AM PDT James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Good question. What have you found out so far about Christianity's decline? And why more so in what was formerly known as the West?
1. My attention was drawn to the book "The Not Yet God" I liked the "not yet" part and asked AI for a summary but did not really understand it. Here is the description from Amazon: "We are a species between axial periods. Thus, our religious myths are struggling to find new connections in a global, ecological order. Delio proposes the new myth of relational holism; that is, the search for a new connection to divinity in an age of quantum physics, evolution, and pluralism. The idea of relational holism is one that is rooted in the God-world relationship, beginning with the Book of Genesis, but finds its real meaning in quantum physics and the renewed relationship between mind and matter. Our story, therefore, will traverse across the fields of science, scripture, theology, history, culture and psychology. Our guides for a new myth of relational holism are the psychoanalyst Carl Jung, and the Jesuit scientist-theologian Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. The complex human can no longer be simplified to one view or another: one must see the whole of our existence or one does not see at all. 2. John Amandola's book, No Harbor. This from Amazon: You have left or are considering leaving evangelicalism. You have experienced hurt and disillusionment because of Christian nationalism, racism, the marginalization of women and sexual minorities, abuse and acceptance of abuse, and denial of science. You’ve seen authoritarian leaders silence the voices of those who desire change.
So, you are finally done with the church. Having left the harbor, you may find yourself in a sea of doubt and confusion without a spiritual home. You long for community.
But leaving the church does not necessarily mean you want to leave Jesus.
No Harbor is a guide for healthy deconstruction in community. We are not trying to reach you or win you back. There are no apologetics within these pages. Instead, we are here to help you move forward. The approach of No Harbor is to deconstruct hurtful and toxic theology that has led to the dysfunctions that have driven so many away from the church. Then, we will make course corrections that recapture the ancient beauty of Christian faith in a way that works in the 21st century. Our goal is to facilitate your healing and to walk with you as you rebuild a more lifegiving and joyful faith than ever before.
Jim Wiegel http://partnersinparticipation.com/james-wiegel/
The unknown is what is. And to be frightened of it is what sends everybody scurrying around chasing dreams, illusions, wars, peace, love, hate, all that. Unknown is what is. Accept that it's unknown, and it's plain sailing. John Lennon
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353
623-363-3277
jfwiegel@yahoo.com mailto:marilyn.oyler@gmail.comhttp://www.partnersinparticipation.com/
On Monday, April 14, 2025 at 12:41:42 AM MST, rev.bud@mac.com <rev.bud@mac.com> wrote:
Bill, I find this helpful. Can anyone name the "world church meeting” that turned down the Order?
I find the paper by John Epps that Jim Wieger sent me to be inciteful. It helps me see that the Order continued theological reflection in and beyond existentialism.
To give some clarity as to why I am currently dialoguing with you, let me explain what I have been doing. For the last several years I have been involved in doing a research project. As I am sure no one would deny, the church has been in a long decline, in both membership and in the influencing of its culture. This decline has only been in the West; in the rest of the world the church has been growing. (See The ext Christendom by Jenkins.) People in the Order ought to be aware of this decline. After all, the Order set out with the purpose of renewing the church long ago.
My question in the researching was: “Are there presently resources out there, especially in books, that would point us toward what the FutureChurch would look like or need to be?”
One issue that has come up in a number of books is the need for the church to change from a model of getting members to developing disciples, in order to fulfil its role in missio Dei (God’s mission in the world. See my blog,Teaching Paper 3 https://budtillinghast4.wordpress.com/2024/12/05/3-mission-as-missio-dei/)
It was at this point that I began to recall my time in relation to the Order with its Imaginal Education, especially your disciple-creating tools of Religious and Cultural Studies. And I began to wonder if there are any of those of you on these lists who would be interested in gathering resources for the FutureChurch? After all, it was you folk who taught me that it was better to work corporately rather than individually.
Grace and peace, Bud
On Sunday, April 13, 2025 at 04:45:14 PM MST, w.schlesinger@pvida.net mailto:w.schlesinger@pvida.net <w.schlesinger@pvida.net mailto:w.schlesinger@pvida.net> wrote:
I think Bud says about the turn to the world, “In so doing they decided to emphasize Cultural Studies over Religious Studies”.
In my memory it had less to do with studies and more to do with strategy. Joe Mathews came back from a world church meeting that declined to confirm the Order Ecumenical as an entity. That and other dynamics led to a decision to shift from focusing on the local church as the change agent in history (a la HRN) to a direct facilitation method in the community, public and private sectors with LENS and then ICA Facilitation. Along with the Global Demonstration Projects and the ‘whistle points,’ the ICA became a strategic attempt to create a consensus based societal direction. Many of us took those methods and models into a variety of corporate, community and non-profit entities.
That in turn involved looking at the dynamics that created and sustained a context that was derived from RS-1 but expressed in non-theological language. Formal Christian language and symbolism had become a restricting dynamic in addressing and engaging a wider audience.
My take anyway. And apologies for the wordy rant in my previous response. I get that way sometimes.
FWIW
Bill Schlesinger
On 11 Apr 2025, at 23:39, James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
1. Did we actually encounter / (re)discover the other world incthe midst of this world (the realities of mystery, consciousness, care and tranquillity as present in our lives and world) or did we just say that??
2. See below the words for “The Mystery is Everywhere”. Do any of you have a recording of it being sung? I can hear Mary Warren Moffett singing it in my head .
Thanks Jim Wiegel
“…the long work of turning their lives into a celebration is not easy. Come and let us talk“.
The Sunflowers. Mary Oliver
Begin forwarded message: _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
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James Wiegel