[Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?

Sun Jun 29 15:58:16 PDT 2025

Dear Shelley,

OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior.

I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth.  But also appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly would not have been available to him at that youthful time.  

For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member,  was charged by JWM to write the Polity Document.  And in that work, we sifted through our collective living experience to name those 24.  Who knows, there may have been more?

What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear:  this was not anywhere close to being acceptable.

I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India.  But I am horrified that you experienced that.

Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest.

With love and respect,

Marilyn
> On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
> 
> This is an interesting intellectual,  hypothetical, philosophical discussion. 
> 
> If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.
> 
> Shelley Hahn 
> 
> On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
>> What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the speciman who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process. 
>> 
>> Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation? 
>> 
>> I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today.
>> 
>> And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage.
>> 
>> Cheryl Hood
>> 
>> On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
>>> HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance.  That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process.  I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs.  We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different.  It is a constant process. 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege. 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’  It isn’t being guilty or sorry.  It’s doing the change that HRN discusses.  It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.”  T – Total Depravity.  Everybody’s screwed up.  Deal with it.  U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible.  L- Limited Atonement.  Some people ‘get it.’  Some don’t.  And you can’t tell the difference.  I – irresistible Grace.  We are all beloved.  P – Perseverance of the Saints.  Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep.  You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> FWIW.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> From: Randy Williams <randycw1938 at gmail.com <mailto:randycw1938 at gmail.com>> 
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM
>>> To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>>
>>> Cc: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger at pvida.net <mailto:w.schlesinger at pvida.net>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder.
>>> 
>>> Randy Williams
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Bill Schlesinger
>>> 
>>> Project Vida
>>> 
>>> 3607 Rivera Avenue <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>> El Paso, TX 79905 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>> (915) 490-6148 Cell
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues,
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
>>> 
>>> <Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV>
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