[Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?

Sat Jun 28 14:26:28 PDT 2025

HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance.  That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’

Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process.  I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs.  We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different.  It is a constant process.  

I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege.  

Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’  It isn’t being guilty or sorry.  It’s doing the change that HRN discusses.  It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.

Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.”  T – Total Depravity.  Everybody’s screwed up.  Deal with it.  U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible.  L- Limited Atonement.  Some people ‘get it.’  Some don’t.  And you can’t tell the difference.  I – irresistible Grace.  We are all beloved.  P – Perseverance of the Saints.  Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep.  You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep.

FWIW.

Bill

From: Randy Williams <randycw1938 at gmail.com> 
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
Cc: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger at pvida.net>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?

Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder.

Randy Williams

On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote:

Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?

Bill Schlesinger

Project Vida

3607 Rivera Avenue

El Paso, TX 79905

(915) 490-6148 Cell

On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote:

Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues,

Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.

<Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>

https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV> &utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false

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