[Oe List ...] My Son's Reaction to Iron Boy and What He Didn't know about his early life

Mon Dec 8 14:18:38 PST 2025

Herman,
Thank you for sharing your son's struggle with his past. I am hopeful the
sharing and connections with others has helped soothe his wounds -- and
yours.
With love,
Sharon

On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 2:16 PM Sharon Fisher <saf1220 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ken,
> Thank you for sharing your journey with your sons in the Order. I remember
> when you and Paige were on my Academy staff on the Westside. Blessings to
> you for sharing your truth.
> Sharon
>
> On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 7:18 AM Ken Fisher via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> wrote:
>
>> This is a slightly edited version of what I sent Herman yesterday.
>>
>> Hi Herman,
>>
>> My son, Ajit, now Shel Sampa was born in Madison Wi. in September ’72.
>>
>> In the spring of ’73, I was assigned to Bombay and did not see him again
>> until 18 months later when Joy Thomas brought him over to Bombay. He was
>> now almost 2 years old.
>>
>> My wife Paige was supposed to bring Ajit and join me in the summer of
>> ’73, when she had completed her engineering degree and U of Wisc. Instead,
>> she decided not to finish. With the money that I had raised for her ticket,
>> she decided to take a 3 months ‘research’ trip through Western Europe,
>> Scandinavia, the Middle East and Afghanistan - before getting to Bombay.
>> She arrived in the fall of ’73.
>>
>> For three months Ajit lived with her parents in Toronto, and then for 6
>> months lived in the Student House.
>>
>> Barely weeks after he arrived, Paige and I were assigned to separate ITIs
>> for six weeks.
>>
>> Ajit was left in Hyderabad, with A.M. Joseph’s family. By now, he could
>> speak English and some Hindi. He reports that he has a bodily memory of
>> being sexually abused while in Hyderabad.
>>
>> Partly because of Paige’s feminism, wanting to take assignments on her
>> own – strongly blocked by the priors; and my being at odds with Ray
>> Spencer, being lied to and manipulated, we were assigned back to Chicago to
>> get ‘reprogrammed’ with a 3-month assignment to The Academy.
>>
>> In our 16 years in the O:E, we each did 8 years wage earning. After the
>> Academy, I was assigned to Development. At the beginning of Summer ’75,
>> almost 4-year old Ajit was assigned to Summer Camp in Central Wisconsin. In
>> the middle of that 3-month period, I did drive north to see briefly see him
>> at camp. Son Aidan was born in April of ’76 just before we were assigned to
>> Houston.
>>
>> The best times for my sons was in Brussels with as many as 8 kids in the
>> house. Tim & Rose Casswell were superb with children.
>>
>> Ajit, at 53, has had a number of jobs in many different locations. For
>> four years he worked in Mexico starting as an English teacher and ending as
>> a financial consultant to Arthur Anderson working in Central America. Now,
>> he owns and manages 2 properties. Surinder is a special needs elementary
>> school teacher.
>>
>> Ajit suffered significantly from attachment disorder. It took him decades
>> to become effective in his work relations, expecting them to deliver him
>> community that would provide emotional security when that was simply not
>> its purpose. This still impacts him. He is a highly effective and loving
>> father of three boys, two of which are the victims of fetal alcohol
>> syndrome.
>>
>> Aidan, 50 next April, has had many careers. He made a million in high
>> tech, owned a dance troupe and was its lead dancer, and was a world
>> champion gamer (Magic, the Gathering). But the traumas of his childhood
>> drove him into years of therapy. Now he is the director of a School of
>> Therapy in Montreal. Core Energetics is world-wide. John Slicker has been
>> associated with it. Aidan has clients all over, but mainly in Montreal.
>>
>> Both have wives 13 years their junior. Aidan and Laura have 4 children.
>> Shel Sampa and Surinder have a son and two adopted Inuit (Eskimo) boys.
>> They are still trying to have a second child of their own.
>>
>> They all live modestly. Both sons work mostly in French.
>>
>> Yet, as a carry-over from the Brussels House, they live 'communally’.
>> While the families are financially independent, they live across the street
>> from one another in a quiet residential area in Montreal. They hang out
>> with Brian and Marguerite’s (my brother and sister-in-law) kids and their
>> kids. They are a clan. The seven kids of my sons move freely between
>> houses. To a significant degree, they are all co-parented. In that the four
>> parents have spent years in therapy and still freely engage that resource,
>> the children are incredibly sane and healthy.
>>
>> Their motto is generational trauma ends here.
>>
>> With love and hugs,
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> P.S. In the O:E, with respect for confidentiality, I am aware of many
>> children who were sexually abused, emotionally abused, and physically
>> assaulted. In the early 80s, I was the first to openly talk about this
>> abuse on what became the listserv. My action influenced the outcome of the
>> Denver Reunion, turning it into making an apology to our youth.
>>
>>
>> On Dec 7, 2025, at 3:25 PM, Herman Greene via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> My son Nathan was in the order for the first two years of his life. One
>> year in New Orleans and one year at Kemper. In New Orleans after he was a
>> few weeks old we found an infant-care facility in a Catholic charity and
>> took him there each day. There were around cribs and there was little
>> programming. During his year at Kemper he was in the pre-school and I
>> believe my then wife Joy was in charge of the pre-school.
>>
>> He is now 53. He has had anger issues and emotional swings. He says he
>> has long had trust issues with me and feels I haven't seen him. He is
>> undergoing therapy and is a few weeks in. He is married and has two
>> children. He is in the midst of mid-life crisis.
>>
>> He began asking me about the Order. He found this article in the NY Times
>> from 1968.
>> https://www.nytimes.com/1968/11/09/archives/new-religious-cult-grows-despite-controversy.html.
>> It describes EI as a cult. He then found David Marshall's book online and
>> read it. He feels he has found a key to his issues of "abandonment"(?).
>> Unlike other children who grew up and can reflect for better and worse on
>> their experience as EI children, Nate has no direct memories of his time in
>> EI.
>>
>> He keeps pressing me on whether EI was a cult and whether Joe Matthews
>> was of very bad character. In tears he thanks me for leaving the Order in
>> August 1975 when he was almost two.
>>
>> He also read David's blog about whether Good Intentions make up for
>> Collateral damage.
>>
>> I explain to him the good things we did and I also acknowledge the
>> "collateral damage." I acknowledge that the Order had aspects of a cult,
>> though it was not the Moonies or Jim Jones (I don't mention these others
>> because I don't want to associate the Order with them).
>>
>> I think about how psychologists write about the importance of the first
>> two years of life and try to imagine what influence that period had on him.
>> He was never separated from Joy and I and I always thought he was happy in
>> his early years. I tell him about how many adults cared for him and adored
>> him.
>>
>> I know there has been a group for Order Children. I wonder if anyone
>> would be willing and interested in talking to Nate (his nickname is Naechi)
>> about the Order and children in the Order.
>>
>> Herman
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* OE <oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Don Bushman
>> via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:10:05 PM
>> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>> *Cc:* Don Bushman <onedonbushman at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral
>> Damage?
>>
>>
>> Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you
>> experienced. I believe you.
>>
>> What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside
>> communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long,
>> many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of
>> them.
>>
>> I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we
>> were immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t
>> ask the hard questions soon enough.
>>
>> I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability,
>> not just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more
>> fully now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness.
>>
>> Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here.
>>
>> Don Bushman
>>
>> 828-292-9696
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE <
>> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Shelley,
>>
>> OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands
>> of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior.
>>
>> I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply
>> appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth.  But also
>> appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly
>> would not have been available to him at that youthful time.
>>
>> For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until
>> 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member,  was charged by
>> JWM to write the Polity Document.  And in that work, we sifted through our
>> collective living experience to name those 24.  Who knows, there may have
>> been more?
>>
>> What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who
>> lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear:  *this
>> was not anywhere close to being acceptable.*
>>
>> I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in
>> Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India.
>> But *I am horrified that you experienced that.*
>>
>> Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept
>> that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest.
>>
>> With love and respect,
>>
>> Marilyn
>>
>> On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> This is an interesting intellectual,  hypothetical, philosophical
>> discussion.
>>
>> If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious
>> house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.
>>
>> Shelley Hahn
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are
>> experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the specimen
>> who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.
>>
>> Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is
>> currently in vogue will produce a better generation?
>>
>> I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family
>> experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off
>> the mark than many other popular theories today.
>>
>> And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces
>> collateral damage.
>>
>> Cheryl Hood
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE <
>> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>>
>> HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the
>> ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it
>> became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society
>> in the act of repentance.  That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
>>
>>
>>
>> Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process.  I
>> remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to
>> replace all the male gender language in our songs.  We’ve discovered and
>> turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the
>> treatment of children (ours and others) is no different.  It is a constant
>> process.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want
>> Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white
>> supremacy privilege.
>>
>>
>>
>> Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally
>> translates as ‘new mind.’  It isn’t being guilty or sorry.  It’s doing the
>> change that HRN discusses.  It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the
>> ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and
>> developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be
>> part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing
>> of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.”  T – Total
>> Depravity.  Everybody’s screwed up.  Deal with it.  U – Unconditional
>> Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be
>> responsible.  L- Limited Atonement.  Some people ‘get it.’  Some don’t.
>> And you can’t tell the difference.  I – irresistible Grace.  We are all
>> beloved.  P – Perseverance of the Saints.  Once you wake up, you can’t go
>> back to sleep.  You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you
>> can’t go back to sleep.
>>
>>
>>
>> FWIW.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938 at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM
>> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>> *Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>; William
>> Schlesinger <w.schlesinger at pvida.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral
>> Damage?
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe
>> the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community
>> or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop
>> it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it
>> tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks
>> up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some
>> issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic
>> Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact
>> that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and
>> therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents.
>> What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to
>> ponder.
>>
>> Randy Williams
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE <
>> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill Schlesinger
>>
>> Project Vida
>>
>> 3607 Rivera Avenue
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>
>> El Paso, TX 79905
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>
>> (915) 490-6148 Cell
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE <
>> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>>
>> Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumenical Institute Colleagues,
>>
>>
>>
>> Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25)
>> have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on
>> Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the
>> wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or
>> on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on
>> Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
>>
>> <Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
>> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV>
>>
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>
>
> --
>
> saf1220 at gmail.com
> c: 503.807.7385
>

-- 

saf1220 at gmail.com
c: 503.807.7385
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