[Oe List ...] My Son's Reaction to Iron Boy and What He Didn't know about his early life

Mon Dec 8 14:16:29 PST 2025

Ken,
Thank you for sharing your journey with your sons in the Order. I remember
when you and Paige were on my Academy staff on the Westside. Blessings to
you for sharing your truth.
Sharon

On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 7:18 AM Ken Fisher via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
wrote:

> This is a slightly edited version of what I sent Herman yesterday.
>
> Hi Herman,
>
> My son, Ajit, now Shel Sampa was born in Madison Wi. in September ’72.
>
> In the spring of ’73, I was assigned to Bombay and did not see him again
> until 18 months later when Joy Thomas brought him over to Bombay. He was
> now almost 2 years old.
>
> My wife Paige was supposed to bring Ajit and join me in the summer of ’73,
> when she had completed her engineering degree and U of Wisc. Instead, she
> decided not to finish. With the money that I had raised for her ticket, she
> decided to take a 3 months ‘research’ trip through Western Europe,
> Scandinavia, the Middle East and Afghanistan - before getting to Bombay.
> She arrived in the fall of ’73.
>
> For three months Ajit lived with her parents in Toronto, and then for 6
> months lived in the Student House.
>
> Barely weeks after he arrived, Paige and I were assigned to separate ITIs
> for six weeks.
>
> Ajit was left in Hyderabad, with A.M. Joseph’s family. By now, he could
> speak English and some Hindi. He reports that he has a bodily memory of
> being sexually abused while in Hyderabad.
>
> Partly because of Paige’s feminism, wanting to take assignments on her own
> – strongly blocked by the priors; and my being at odds with Ray Spencer,
> being lied to and manipulated, we were assigned back to Chicago to get
> ‘reprogrammed’ with a 3-month assignment to The Academy.
>
> In our 16 years in the O:E, we each did 8 years wage earning. After the
> Academy, I was assigned to Development. At the beginning of Summer ’75,
> almost 4-year old Ajit was assigned to Summer Camp in Central Wisconsin. In
> the middle of that 3-month period, I did drive north to see briefly see him
> at camp. Son Aidan was born in April of ’76 just before we were assigned to
> Houston.
>
> The best times for my sons was in Brussels with as many as 8 kids in the
> house. Tim & Rose Casswell were superb with children.
>
> Ajit, at 53, has had a number of jobs in many different locations. For
> four years he worked in Mexico starting as an English teacher and ending as
> a financial consultant to Arthur Anderson working in Central America. Now,
> he owns and manages 2 properties. Surinder is a special needs elementary
> school teacher.
>
> Ajit suffered significantly from attachment disorder. It took him decades
> to become effective in his work relations, expecting them to deliver him
> community that would provide emotional security when that was simply not
> its purpose. This still impacts him. He is a highly effective and loving
> father of three boys, two of which are the victims of fetal alcohol
> syndrome.
>
> Aidan, 50 next April, has had many careers. He made a million in high
> tech, owned a dance troupe and was its lead dancer, and was a world
> champion gamer (Magic, the Gathering). But the traumas of his childhood
> drove him into years of therapy. Now he is the director of a School of
> Therapy in Montreal. Core Energetics is world-wide. John Slicker has been
> associated with it. Aidan has clients all over, but mainly in Montreal.
>
> Both have wives 13 years their junior. Aidan and Laura have 4 children.
> Shel Sampa and Surinder have a son and two adopted Inuit (Eskimo) boys.
> They are still trying to have a second child of their own.
>
> They all live modestly. Both sons work mostly in French.
>
> Yet, as a carry-over from the Brussels House, they live 'communally’.
> While the families are financially independent, they live across the street
> from one another in a quiet residential area in Montreal. They hang out
> with Brian and Marguerite’s (my brother and sister-in-law) kids and their
> kids. They are a clan. The seven kids of my sons move freely between
> houses. To a significant degree, they are all co-parented. In that the four
> parents have spent years in therapy and still freely engage that resource,
> the children are incredibly sane and healthy.
>
> Their motto is generational trauma ends here.
>
> With love and hugs,
>
> Ken
>
> P.S. In the O:E, with respect for confidentiality, I am aware of many
> children who were sexually abused, emotionally abused, and physically
> assaulted. In the early 80s, I was the first to openly talk about this
> abuse on what became the listserv. My action influenced the outcome of the
> Denver Reunion, turning it into making an apology to our youth.
>
>
> On Dec 7, 2025, at 3:25 PM, Herman Greene via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> wrote:
>
> My son Nathan was in the order for the first two years of his life. One
> year in New Orleans and one year at Kemper. In New Orleans after he was a
> few weeks old we found an infant-care facility in a Catholic charity and
> took him there each day. There were around cribs and there was little
> programming. During his year at Kemper he was in the pre-school and I
> believe my then wife Joy was in charge of the pre-school.
>
> He is now 53. He has had anger issues and emotional swings. He says he has
> long had trust issues with me and feels I haven't seen him. He is
> undergoing therapy and is a few weeks in. He is married and has two
> children. He is in the midst of mid-life crisis.
>
> He began asking me about the Order. He found this article in the NY Times
> from 1968.
> https://www.nytimes.com/1968/11/09/archives/new-religious-cult-grows-despite-controversy.html.
> It describes EI as a cult. He then found David Marshall's book online and
> read it. He feels he has found a key to his issues of "abandonment"(?).
> Unlike other children who grew up and can reflect for better and worse on
> their experience as EI children, Nate has no direct memories of his time in
> EI.
>
> He keeps pressing me on whether EI was a cult and whether Joe Matthews was
> of very bad character. In tears he thanks me for leaving the Order in
> August 1975 when he was almost two.
>
> He also read David's blog about whether Good Intentions make up for
> Collateral damage.
>
> I explain to him the good things we did and I also acknowledge the
> "collateral damage." I acknowledge that the Order had aspects of a cult,
> though it was not the Moonies or Jim Jones (I don't mention these others
> because I don't want to associate the Order with them).
>
> I think about how psychologists write about the importance of the first
> two years of life and try to imagine what influence that period had on him.
> He was never separated from Joy and I and I always thought he was happy in
> his early years. I tell him about how many adults cared for him and adored
> him.
>
> I know there has been a group for Order Children. I wonder if anyone would
> be willing and interested in talking to Nate (his nickname is Naechi) about
> the Order and children in the Order.
>
> Herman
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* OE <oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Don Bushman via
> OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:10:05 PM
> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Cc:* Don Bushman <onedonbushman at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral
> Damage?
>
>
> Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you
> experienced. I believe you.
>
> What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside
> communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long,
> many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of
> them.
>
> I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we were
> immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t ask
> the hard questions soon enough.
>
> I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability,
> not just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more
> fully now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness.
>
> Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here.
>
> Don Bushman
>
> 828-292-9696
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE <
> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Shelley,
>
> OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands
> of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior.
>
> I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply
> appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth.  But also
> appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly
> would not have been available to him at that youthful time.
>
> For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until
> 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member,  was charged by
> JWM to write the Polity Document.  And in that work, we sifted through our
> collective living experience to name those 24.  Who knows, there may have
> been more?
>
> What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who
> lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear:  *this
> was not anywhere close to being acceptable.*
>
> I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in
> Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India.
> But *I am horrified that you experienced that.*
>
> Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept
> that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest.
>
> With love and respect,
>
> Marilyn
>
> On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> wrote:
>
> This is an interesting intellectual,  hypothetical, philosophical
> discussion.
>
> If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious
> house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.
>
> Shelley Hahn
>
> On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> wrote:
>
> What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are
> experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the specimen
> who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.
>
> Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is
> currently in vogue will produce a better generation?
>
> I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family
> experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off
> the mark than many other popular theories today.
>
> And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces
> collateral damage.
>
> Cheryl Hood
>
> On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE <
> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>
> HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive
> and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became
> aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the
> act of repentance.  That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
>
>
>
> Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process.  I
> remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to
> replace all the male gender language in our songs.  We’ve discovered and
> turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the
> treatment of children (ours and others) is no different.  It is a constant
> process.
>
>
>
> I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want
> Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white
> supremacy privilege.
>
>
>
> Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally
> translates as ‘new mind.’  It isn’t being guilty or sorry.  It’s doing the
> change that HRN discusses.  It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the
> ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and
> developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be
> part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
>
>
>
> Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing
> of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.”  T – Total
> Depravity.  Everybody’s screwed up.  Deal with it.  U – Unconditional
> Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be
> responsible.  L- Limited Atonement.  Some people ‘get it.’  Some don’t.
> And you can’t tell the difference.  I – irresistible Grace.  We are all
> beloved.  P – Perseverance of the Saints.  Once you wake up, you can’t go
> back to sleep.  You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you
> can’t go back to sleep.
>
>
>
> FWIW.
>
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM
> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>; William
> Schlesinger <w.schlesinger at pvida.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral
> Damage?
>
>
>
> Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the
> difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or
> whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it
> or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it
> tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks
> up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some
> issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic
> Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact
> that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and
> therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents.
> What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to
> ponder.
>
> Randy Williams
>
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE <
> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
>
>
>
> Bill Schlesinger
>
> Project Vida
>
> 3607 Rivera Avenue
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> El Paso, TX 79905
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> (915) 490-6148 Cell
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE <
> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>
> Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumenical Institute Colleagues,
>
>
>
> Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25)
> have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on
> Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the
> wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or
> on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on
> Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
>
> <Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
>
>
>
>
> https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV>
>
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