[Oe List ...] Salmon: prayer reflection
Susan Fertig via OE
oe at lists.wedgeblade.net
Tue Sep 20 19:43:45 PDT 2016
P.s. The church is not a building. The church is the body of people who gather to worship and who live to serve their neighbor.
Susan
Susan Fertig-Dykes
(personal email account)
And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11
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From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of H. A. Tillinghast via OE
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 11:25 AM
To: William Salmon <wsalmon at cox.net>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Salmon: prayer reflection
Bill I also like the quadrilateral. I also contend the Experience is central- though everyone disagrees with me. After all, the Scripture records the experience of the biblical writers and the Tradition records the experience of the church.
Bud
On Sep 20, 2016, at 3:54 PM, William Salmon via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Susan, et al,
Something to consider. The wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a personal one.
This is why the quadrilateral of John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept from being dilatants.
The following paragraph will explain this process:
The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2) tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service.
(Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz,
Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by Permission.)
I like this and I use it often. It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my perceptions by the other dynamics; this keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes.
Weskey said that "scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that "experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition, reason and the scriptures.
Thanks for sharing.
Bill
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----- Original Message -----
From: Susan Fertig via OE<mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
To: Isobel and Jim Bishop<mailto:isobeljimbish at optusnet.com.au> ; Order EcumenicalCommunity<mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc.
If we’re operating out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I’m not likely to change anybody’s mind on this listserv, none of the comments here are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe.
Someone actually accused people who believe what I believe of “shallowness” and “superstition.”
Interesting that in my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in a way you’d all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
Superstition is avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my faith.
My experience of the other world is as real as my hand in front of my face.
Susan
Susan Fertig-Dykes
(personal email account)
And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah 58:11
Protect against email address harvesting:
Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses;
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From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27 PM
To: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles at gmail.com<mailto:jackcgilles at gmail.com>>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc.
Isobel and Jim Bishop
isobeljimbish at optusnet.com.au<mailto:isobeljimbish at optusnet.com.au>
Dear Folks, especially Jack,
I too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t engage so much.. I have always thought to myself
that this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer….? In the winter months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more often and write pearls of wisdom….Just my observation from down here in Oz.
Yes, I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many memories.
I thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it useful.
Nowadays I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life, and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of connecting with the world and all that is within it.
… and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking about Creation….
A word about prayer… Some time ago, on the list serve there was some reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as ' leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it helped me at the time, and I still reflect on these
words. I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a situation.
Enough from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of Sydney.
Jim is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be 87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and exercises etc.,
Our daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election, I reckon. It is quite scary from this viewpoint.
All the best to y'all,
and with grace, peace, and love,
from Isobel.
On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
There should be a request to share the ability to open. But if you see a ‘download’ arrow, do that and then download the link that allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn’t open my post as well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with the player. I hope others find that works for them as well.
Jack
On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe, but it is locked. How do I get in?
Doris Hahn
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