[Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol 54, Issue 15

[David Flowers via OE]

I often think of prayer without ceasing in the context of meditation,
contemplation, and prayer.

meditation - connect with what comes to you and let go.
contemplation - connect with creation and listen.
prayer - connect with creation in dialogue.

so - I'm working on listening skills because ..... as a white middle-class
male - the prayers of my generalized historic demographic have not served
God's creation, if one is to notice the condition of our biosphere.

(meditation for the sake of feeling "better" about a self-destructing
global system is ....... your favorite expletive)

On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 1:27 AM, via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong:  Charting a New Reformation,
>       Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded) (Bill Schlesinger via OE)
>    2. Salmon: On prayer (William Salmon via OE)
>    3. Re: Responding to Spong on prayer (Adam Thomson via OE)
>    4. Re: Responding to Spong on prayer (Paul Schrijnen via OE)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 09:04:32 -0600
> From: Bill Schlesinger via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> To: "'zbarley'" <zbarley at earthlink.net>,        "'Order Ecumenical
>         Community'" <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong:  Charting a New
>         Reformation, Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)
> Message-ID: <048301d210f4$ccad74b0$66085e10$@pvida.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Not following the disappointment ? sounded like Spong was echoing the
> non-magical understanding of prayer. ?These are little more than the
> delusions of yesterday that we are now called on to abandon.?  It?s pretty
> clear that there are a lot of folk who would like a magically manipulated
> world and who ask for it.  Friend of mine says ?no gambler avoids
> superstition. How the cards are held in the hand must influence the random
> sequence of events!?  Luck, superstitious prayer, magic ? or ?the act of
> embracing transcendence and the conscious practice of sharing with another
> the gifts of living, loving and being.?   Sounds a lot like the prayer
> short course from RS-1 to me.
>
>
>
> Bill Schlesinger
>
>
>
> From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of zbarley
> via OE
> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 8:50 AM
> To: James Wiegel; Order Ecumenical Community
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New
> Reformation, Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)
>
>
>
> Ken and I just talked about Spong's latest and are disappointed in him on
> this topic. I have trouble believing there are people who ask a Being in
> the sky to intervene. But then I have trouble with people who believe Trump.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the prayer words - we had good poets amongst us.
>
>
>
> Zoe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: James Wiegel via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> Date: 2016/09/17 7:56 AM (GMT-07:00)
> To: Ellie Stock <elliestock at aol.com>, Colleague Dialogue <
> dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> Cc: oe at wedgeblade.net
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New
> Reformation, Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)
>
> Trying to make sense of Spongs call for reformation and what is really
> there.  Read this section on Prayer, remembered the prayer song.  See
> below.  Anyone recall the short courses on prayer from the RS1?
>
>
> PRAYER
> Tune: Aravah (Hebrew)
>
> When I see my life
> ever is torn
>
> And loved ones
> violated
>
> And my failures are
> daily reborn
>
> Then sorrow with
> heaven is weighted
>
> Yet I can gladly em-
> brace every hour
>
> And praise God?s
> inequity
>
> I can sing of my blessings
> that shower
>
> My joy
> inexpressible be.
>
>
> Now here I stand
> battered to and fro
>
> Now here I stand
> battered to and fro
>
> The chaos within
> yet surrounding
>
> I cry out my want and
> the lack that I know
>
> And power from with-
> out feel uplifting.
>
>
> The weight of the world
> on my shoulders I bear
>
> I echo the
> voices that cry
>
> The path of Mankind
> with my agony bent
>
> And my God I?ll fight on
> ?til I die
>
> Jim Wiegel
> 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353
> Tel. 011-623-936-8671 or 011-623-363-3277
> jfwiegel at yahoo.com
> www.partnersinparticipation.com
>
> "We are no longer living in an era of change.  We are living in a change
> of era."  Francis
>
> Upcoming public course opportunities click here
> http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10
> For online registration go to http://www.top-training.net
>
> The AZ ToP? Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, 1-4 pm, starting
> again on Sept 5th at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003
> AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP? courses
>
> > On Sep 16, 2016, at 10:12, Ellie Stock via Dialogue <
> dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >      HOMEPAGE        MY PROFILE        ESSAY ARCHIVE       MESSAGE
> BOARDS       CALENDAR
> >
> > Charting a New Reformation
> > Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)
> > Before prayer can be made real our understanding of God, coupled with
> our understanding of how the world works, must be newly defined. Before
> prayer can have meaning, it must be built on an honest sharing of life.
> Cornelia, the woman about whom I wrote last week, did that for me. Before
> prayer can be discussed in the age in which we live, it must be drained of
> its presumed manipulative magic. It must find expression in the reality of
> who we are, not in the details of what we do. These were the insights that
> my third story gave to me as I walked through what was probably the darkest
> period of my life, the years 1981-1989. The learning curve was steep; the
> depth of despair was real. I invite you now to enter that time period with
> me and to walk through that experience as I did. This narrative is true,
> personal and painful. I have spoken verbally of it before. I have not
> written about it. Doing so even now makes me feel quite vulnerable.
> >
> > Around Christmas of 1981, my first wife, Joan Lydia Ketner Spong, was
> diagnosed with advanced breast cancer. She had never been fond of doctors
> and so had postponed seeing one until she felt her symptoms had become
> critical. She had discovered a lump in her breast much earlier and had
> decided to tell no one for a very long time. It grew very slowly causing
> her to assume, perhaps to hope, that it must be benign. It remained her
> secret. That December as the holidays came into focus, however, the tumor
> erupted externally and became a draining sore. When that occurred, I became
> alarmed and got her as quickly as I could to a doctor. After an examination
> and later a biopsy, we heard the verdict. She had a stage four malignancy.
> Immediate surgery was required and massive chemotherapy would have to
> follow the surgery. No guarantees were offered even then. In fact we were
> told that about two years of life might be all that we could reasonably
> expect. We sank into the shock of that
>                                             diagnosis.
> >
> > At that time I was an active and fairly high-profile public figure as
> the bishop of Newark. We had been engaged in great controversies over the
> full acceptance in both church and society of gay, lesbian, transgender and
> bi-sexual persons. I was clearly identified in this fight and my name was
> widely recognized from press and television coverage. People in public life
> learn quickly that they really do not, perhaps cannot, have a private life.
> Within minutes, it seemed, the news of both my wife?s diagnosis and her
> prognosis spread until it seemed to me as if the whole world knew. From
> that day on, I never visited a congregation in my diocese for confirmation
> that prayers were not offered publicly for my wife and for me. Prayer
> groups all over New Jersey informed us that they were praying for us ? some
> were Episcopal, some were Roman Catholic and some were ecumenical. The one
> thing they all appeared to have in common was that they knew of the
> two-year maximum boundary that pre
>  sumably my wife and I were facing. I did not resent this invasion of our
> privacy. I was rather appreciative of their efforts, as was Joan. Their
> actions felt supportive and loving. In their own way, the people were
> telling us that they really cared for us and, in whatever way they could,
> they wanted to help. They were willing in this way to stand with us, to
> share in our pain and in our struggle. One never rejects
>                          love that is so freely offered, even when the form
> in which it comes might not be one?s particular style. So Joan and I were
> carried by this wave of love from those who reached out to us in what was
> clearly our time of need.
> >
> > The months passed and then the years began to mount. When we passed the
> two-year prediction date, and things were still going positively, I noticed
> that these prayer groups began to take credit for my wife?s longevity. In
> their letters to me, it almost sounded as if they believed that they had
> engaged the powers of evil in some profound contest that pitted them on
> God?s side, holding back God?s enemies. Their prayers, they suggested, were
> pushing back the advance of this demonic sickness. They were winning the
> battle and they felt good about their success. Once again, my response was
> not to debate the theological implications of their understanding of
> prayer, but simply to appreciate the level of caring that they were
> offering. It was, at least in its intention, sustaining. I could not help,
> however, in the darkness of each night to wonder about the implications of
> their understanding of prayer
> >
> > ?Suppose,? I thought to myself during a particularly sleepless time,
> ?that a member of the City of Newark?s sanitation department had a wife
> with cancer.? At that time, Newark, New Jersey, was either at or very near
> the top of the list of America?s poorest per capita cities. I tried to
> envision just who it was who might occupy the bottom tier of Newark?s
> socio-economic status system. My mind settled, whether rightly or wrongly,
> on the garbage collector working for Newark?s sanitation department. So I
> focused on him.
> >
> > In this long dark meditation, I wondered how many prayer groups would
> have added her name to their lists. How much public notice would her
> illness have achieved? If this couple went to church, perhaps that
> community might have been aware of their struggle, but would services have
> been interrupted with passionate petitions for healing? Would the gates of
> heaven have been stormed by massive number of prayers? Would God, I then
> wondered, let this man?s wife die more quickly than my wife? My high public
> profile and social prominence alone caused more prayers to be uttered for
> my wife than for his. Would those prayers be a factor, I wondered, in
> either healing or longevity? Does God operate on the basis of human status?
> If I believed that prayer worked in this way, I would immediately become an
> atheist! I could not possibly believe in such a deity. This capricious God
> would be demonic, it seemed to me. The cumulative power of many people
> praying existed in the case of my wife on
>  ly because I was a fairly well known public figure. Is status a factor in
> what is thought of as the healing power of God? When John Paul II lingered
> on his death bed for so long, the whole world joined in prayer for him. Was
> that a factor in his long lingering death? When hurricanes barrel down on a
> population center like New Orleans, the cries of millions are lifted
> heavenward in prayer. Will the cumulative power of many prayers affect the
> course of a life, change the direction of a hurricane or alter the path of
> a disease? Is that what prayer does? If so, then prayer is a tool to be
> used by the mighty, the powerful and the well-known. If that is true then
> God clearly cares more for the rich and famous than God does for the poor,
> the forgotten and the unknown. Such a conclusion becomes theologically
> violent, absurd and even hate-filled. Whatever prayer means, it cannot be
> that. My wife lived for six and a half years from her diagnosis in December
> of 1981 to her death in Aug
>  ust of 1988. In retrospect, I treasure that extension of time, but I did
> not fully understand then the gift that I was given. Life is like that. As
> St. Paul says, we see only ?through a glass darkly.?
> >
> > So I put these stories with their varied and distinctive insights
> together. Then I seek to draw conclusions about what prayer means in the
> 21st century. Prayer is not and cannot be a petition from the weak to the
> all-powerful one to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. Prayer does
> not bend God?s will to a new conclusion. Prayer does not bring a cure where
> there is no possibility of a cure. Prayer does not create miracles to which
> we can testify publicly.
> >
> > These are little more than the delusions of yesterday that we are now
> called on to abandon. They arose out of the childhood of our humanity.
> Today a new question emerges, which we must face with honesty. Is prayer
> only the human act of last resort? Does praying reflect anything more than
> the fact that all else has failed? Why do we say so frequently to people,
> ?You will be in my prayers,? when we never stop to pray? Is it not our
> impotence in the face of life?s pain that draws us to pretend that we
> actually possess the power to make a difference, creating nothing more than
> a comfortable fantasy land in which we can hide?
> >
> > Is my experience, which tells me that loving, caring and sharing matter,
> actually real? Can prayer be defined as something other than this pious
> activity? Does it have any claim on reality? Is prayer a holy activity or
> is it a preparation for a time of engaging in a holy activity?
> Increasingly, I am moving to the latter conclusion. It is life that is
> holy. It is love that is life-giving. Having the courage to be all that I
> can be is the place where God and life come together for me. If that is so,
> is not living, loving and being the essence of prayer and the
>                                meaning of worship? When Paul enjoined us to
> ?pray without ceasing? did he mean to engage the activity of praying
> unceasingly? Or did he mean that we are to see all of life as a prayer
> calling the world to enter that place where life, love and being reveal the
> meaning of God? Is Christianity not coming to the place where my ?I? meets
> another?s ?Thou? and in that moment God is
>  present?
> >
> > I pray daily. In my own way, I bring before the eyes of my mind those I
> love and thus into my awareness of the holy in which my life seems to be
> lived. Do I expect miracles to occur, lives to be changed or wholeness
> suddenly to replace brokenness? No, but I do expect to be made more whole,
> to be set free to share my life more deeply with others, to be enabled to
> love beyond my boundaries and to watch the barriers that divide me from
> those I once avoided lowered. Prayer to me is the practice of the presence
> of God, the act of embracing transcendence and the conscious practice of
> sharing with another the gifts of living, loving and being. Can that
> understanding of prayer, so free of miracle and magic, make any real
> difference in our world? I believe it can, it does and it will.
> >
> > John Shelby Spong
> >
> >
> > Question & Answer
> > Clifford Hill of Wheaton, Illinois, writes:
> >
> >
> > Question:
> > I am a member of a United Methodist Church in Wheaton, Illinois. Over
> the years, I have taught many adult classes and would, in that process,
> include many of Bart Ehrman?s offerings in the Great Courses series.
> Currently, my class has six sessions of his course: After the New
> Testament: The Writings of the Apostolic Fathers, remaining and I had
> planned to present these this coming fall. I received a call from our
> Director of Care Minister, who is the scheduler for adult classes. She
> asked me to cancel this class because some persons, (unknown to me), but
> who are not members of the class, had complained about it. Earlier our
> senior pastor had mentioned to me that I sho
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 22:36:14 -0500
> From: William Salmon via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> To: "Bill Schlesinger" <w.schlesinger at pvida.net>,       "Order Ecumenical
>         Community" <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>,   "'zbarley'"
>         <zbarley at earthlink.net>
> Subject: [Oe List ...] Salmon: On prayer
> Message-ID: <C9A446D512AA410FBF17039390B2F9FD at hp>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Colleagues-in-Dialogue:
>     Spong is a prime member of the vanguard for contexting the future. The
> Order--et al--are those standing between the No Longer and the Not Yet.
> Unfortunately, the language used by Spong, and those like him, represents
> the worldview of the Renaissance Human; the give away is such phrases as,
> ". . .the act of embracing transcendence. . . " Such words imply a
> metaphysics that is the gift of Greek dualism and eventually Newtonian
> physics.
>     Those born on the cusp of 1985 have no appreciation of such language.
> This is the reason that today's youth, and their parents, left the church,
> because their intuitions are based on transparency rather than on
> transcendence.
>     Today's worldview embraces an inner awareness.
>     The key praxis is to ask, "How do you experience. . . ?," instead of,
> "What do you know?"
>      For instance, the provocative question is, "How do you experience
> God?" rather than the more traditional question, "What do we know about
> God?"
>     The Head Trip answer is, "God is omnipresent, omniscient, and
> omnipotent? Observe how these answers lead us into irrelevance.
>     The Gut Trip answer is: "God is love?"
>         "When was the last time you were loved?"
>         "It is when my wife forgave me for being a fool."
>         "Everyone knows what a fool is like, and what forgiveness is like."
>      Theologically, this approach is experiential and existential. This
> exercise does not give us a definition of God, instead we know we stood in
> the presence of God; in God's shadow.
>     It's late, and I'm off to bed!
>     Inner Peace!
>     Bill Salmon
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Bill Schlesinger via OE
>   To: 'zbarley' ; 'Order Ecumenical Community'
>   Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 10:04 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Oe List ...][Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New
> Reformation, Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)
>
>
>   Not following the disappointment ? sounded like Spong was echoing the
> non-magical understanding of prayer. ?These are little more than the
> delusions of yesterday that we are now called on to abandon.?  It?s pretty
> clear that there are a lot of folk who would like a magically manipulated
> world and who ask for it.  Friend of mine says ?no gambler avoids
> superstition. How the cards are held in the hand must influence the random
> sequence of events!?  Luck, superstitious prayer, magic ? or ?the act of
> embracing transcendence and the conscious practice of sharing with another
> the gifts of living, loving and being.?   Sounds a lot like the prayer
> short course from RS-1 to me.
>
>
>
>   Bill Schlesinger
>
>
>
>   From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of zbarley
> via OE
>   Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 8:50 AM
>   To: James Wiegel; Order Ecumenical Community
>   Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New
> Reformation, Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)
>
>
>
>   Ken and I just talked about Spong's latest and are disappointed in him
> on this topic. I have trouble believing there are people who ask a Being in
> the sky to intervene. But then I have trouble with people who believe Trump.
>
>
>
>   Thanks for the prayer words - we had good poets amongst us.
>
>
>
>   Zoe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
>
>   -------- Original message --------
>   From: James Wiegel via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>   Date: 2016/09/17 7:56 AM (GMT-07:00)
>   To: Ellie Stock <elliestock at aol.com>, Colleague Dialogue <
> dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>   Cc: oe at wedgeblade.net
>   Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New
> Reformation, Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)
>
>   Trying to make sense of Spongs call for reformation and what is really
> there.  Read this section on Prayer, remembered the prayer song.  See
> below.  Anyone recall the short courses on prayer from the RS1?
>
>
>   PRAYER
>   Tune: Aravah (Hebrew)
>
>   When I see my life
>   ever is torn
>
>   And loved ones
>   violated
>
>   And my failures are
>   daily reborn
>
>   Then sorrow with
>   heaven is weighted
>
>   Yet I can gladly em-
>   brace every hour
>
>   And praise God?s
>   inequity
>
>   I can sing of my blessings
>   that shower
>
>   My joy
>   inexpressible be.
>
>
>   Now here I stand
>   battered to and fro
>
>   Now here I stand
>   battered to and fro
>
>   The chaos within
>   yet surrounding
>
>   I cry out my want and
>   the lack that I know
>
>   And power from with-
>   out feel uplifting.
>
>
>   The weight of the world
>   on my shoulders I bear
>
>   I echo the
>   voices that cry
>
>   The path of Mankind
>   with my agony bent
>
>   And my God I?ll fight on
>   ?til I die
>
>   Jim Wiegel
>   401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353
>   Tel. 011-623-936-8671 or 011-623-363-3277
>   jfwiegel at yahoo.com
>   www.partnersinparticipation.com
>
>   "We are no longer living in an era of change.  We are living in a change
> of era."  Francis
>
>   Upcoming public course opportunities click here
>   http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10
>   For online registration go to http://www.top-training.net
>
>   The AZ ToP? Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, 1-4 pm, starting
> again on Sept 5th at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003
>   AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP? courses
>
>   > On Sep 16, 2016, at 10:12, Ellie Stock via Dialogue <
> dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >      HOMEPAGE        MY PROFILE        ESSAY ARCHIVE       MESSAGE
> BOARDS       CALENDAR
>   >
>   > Charting a New Reformation
>   > Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)
>   > Before prayer can be made real our understanding of God, coupled with
> our understanding of how the world works, must be newly defined. Before
> prayer can have meaning, it must be built on an honest sharing of life.
> Cornelia, the woman about whom I wrote last week, did that for me. Before
> prayer can be discussed in the age in which we live, it must be drained of
> its presumed manipulative magic. It must find expression in the reality of
> who we are, not in the details of what we do. These were the insights that
> my third story gave to me as I walked through what was probably the darkest
> period of my life, the years 1981-1989. The learning curve was steep; the
> depth of despair was real. I invite you now to enter that time period with
> me and to walk through that experience as I did. This narrative is true,
> personal and painful. I have spoken verbally of it before. I have not
> written about it. Doing so even now makes me feel quite vulnerable.
>   >
>   > Around Christmas of 1981, my first wife, Joan Lydia Ketner Spong, was
> diagnosed with advanced breast cancer. She had never been fond of doctors
> and so had postponed seeing one until she felt her symptoms had become
> critical. She had discovered a lump in her breast much earlier and had
> decided to tell no one for a very long time. It grew very slowly causing
> her to assume, perhaps to hope, that it must be benign. It remained her
> secret. That December as the holidays came into focus, however, the tumor
> erupted externally and became a draining sore. When that occurred, I became
> alarmed and got her as quickly as I could to a doctor. After an examination
> and later a biopsy, we heard the verdict. She had a stage four malignancy.
> Immediate surgery was required and massive chemotherapy would have to
> follow the surgery. No guarantees were offered even then. In fact we were
> told that about two years of life might be all that we could reasonably
> expect. We sank into the shock of that
>                                               diagnosis.
>   >
>   > At that time I was an active and fairly high-profile public figure as
> the bishop of Newark. We had been engaged in great controversies over the
> full acceptance in both church and society of gay, lesbian, transgender and
> bi-sexual persons. I was clearly identified in this fight and my name was
> widely recognized from press and television coverage. People in public life
> learn quickly that they really do not, perhaps cannot, have a private life.
> Within minutes, it seemed, the news of both my wife?s diagnosis and her
> prognosis spread until it seemed to me as if the whole world knew. From
> that day on, I never visited a congregation in my diocese for confirmation
> that prayers were not offered publicly for my wife and for me. Prayer
> groups all over New Jersey informed us that they were praying for us ? some
> were Episcopal, some were Roman Catholic and some were ecumenical. The one
> thing they all appeared to have in common was that they knew of the
> two-year maximum boundary that p
>  resumably my wife and I were facing. I did not resent this invasion of
> our privacy. I was rather appreciative of their efforts, as was Joan. Their
> actions felt supportive and loving. In their own way, the people were
> telling us that they really cared for us and, in whatever way they could,
> they wanted to help. They were willing in this way to stand with us, to
> share in our pain and in our struggle. One never rejects
>                          love that is so freely offered, even when the form
> in which it comes might not be one?s particular style. So Joan and I were
> carried by this wave of love from those who reached out to us in what was
> clearly our time of need.
>   >
>   > The months passed and then the years began to mount. When we passed
> the two-year prediction date, and things were still going positively, I
> noticed that these prayer groups began to take credit for my wife?s
> longevity. In their letters to me, it almost sounded as if they believed
> that they had engaged the powers of evil in some profound contest that
> pitted them on God?s side, holding back God?s enemies. Their prayers, they
> suggested, were pushing back the advance of this demonic sickness. They
> were winning the battle and they felt good about their success. Once again,
> my response was not to debate the theological implications of their
> understanding of prayer, but simply to appreciate the level of caring that
> they were offering. It was, at least in its intention, sustaining. I could
> not help, however, in the darkness of each night to wonder about the
> implications of their understanding of prayer
>   >
>   > ?Suppose,? I thought to myself during a particularly sleepless time,
> ?that a member of the City of Newark?s sanitation department had a wife
> with cancer.? At that time, Newark, New Jersey, was either at or very near
> the top of the list of America?s poorest per capita cities. I tried to
> envision just who it was who might occupy the bottom tier of Newark?s
> socio-economic status system. My mind settled, whether rightly or wrongly,
> on the garbage collector working for Newark?s sanitation department. So I
> focused on him.
>   >
>   > In this long dark meditation, I wondered how many prayer groups would
> have added her name to their lists. How much public notice would her
> illness have achieved? If this couple went to church, perhaps that
> community might have been aware of their struggle, but would services have
> been interrupted with passionate petitions for healing? Would the gates of
> heaven have been stormed by massive number of prayers? Would God, I then
> wondered, let this man?s wife die more quickly than my wife? My high public
> profile and social prominence alone caused more prayers to be uttered for
> my wife than for his. Would those prayers be a factor, I wondered, in
> either healing or longevity? Does God operate on the basis of human status?
> If I believed that prayer worked in this way, I would immediately become an
> atheist! I could not possibly believe in such a deity. This capricious God
> would be demonic, it seemed to me. The cumulative power of many people
> praying existed in the case of my wife
>  only because I was a fairly well known public figure. Is status a factor
> in what is thought of as the healing power of God? When John Paul II
> lingered on his death bed for so long, the whole world joined in prayer for
> him. Was that a factor in his long lingering death? When hurricanes barrel
> down on a population center like New Orleans, the cries of millions are
> lifted heavenward in prayer. Will the cumulative power of many prayers
> affect the course of a life, change the direction of a hurricane or alter
> the path of a disease? Is that what prayer does? If so, then prayer is a
> tool to be used by the mighty, the powerful and the well-known. If that is
> true then God clearly cares more for the rich and famous than God does for
> the poor, the forgotten and the unknown. Such a conclusion becomes
> theologically violent, absurd and even hate-filled. Whatever prayer means,
> it cannot be that. My wife lived for six and a half years from her
> diagnosis in December of 1981 to her death in A
>  ugust of 1988. In retrospect, I treasure that extension of time, but I
> did not fully understand then the gift that I was given. Life is like that.
> As St. Paul says, we see only ?through a glass darkly.?
>   >
>   > So I put these stories with their varied and distinctive insights
> together. Then I seek to draw conclusions about what prayer means in the
> 21st century. Prayer is not and cannot be a petition from the weak to the
> all-powerful one to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. Prayer does
> not bend God?s will to a new conclusion. Prayer does not bring a cure where
> there is no possibility of a cure. Prayer does not create miracles to which
> we can testify publicly.
>   >
>   > These are little more than the delusions of yesterday that we are now
> called on to abandon. They arose out of the childhood of our humanity.
> Today a new question emerges, which we must face with honesty. Is prayer
> only the human act of last resort? Does praying reflect anything more than
> the fact that all else has failed? Why do we say so frequently to people,
> ?You will be in my prayers,? when we never stop to pray? Is it not our
> impotence in the face of life?s pain that draws us to pretend that we
> actually possess the power to make a difference, creating nothing more than
> a comfortable fantasy land in which we can hide?
>   >
>   > Is my experience, which tells me that loving, caring and sharing
> matter, actually real? Can prayer be defined as something other than this
> pious activity? Does it have any claim on reality? Is prayer a holy
> activity or is it a preparation for a time of engaging in a holy activity?
> Increasingly, I am moving to the latter conclusion. It is life that is
> holy. It is love that is life-giving. Having the courage to be all that I
> can be is the place where God and life come together for me. If that is so,
> is not living, loving and being the essence of prayer and the
>                                meaning of worship? When Paul enjoined us to
> ?pray without ceasing? did he mean to engage the activity of praying
> unceasingly? Or did he mean that we are to see all of life as a prayer
> calling the world to enter that place where life, love and being reveal the
> meaning of God? Is Christianity not coming to the place where my ?I? meets
> another?s ?Thou? and in that moment God i
>  s present?
>   >
>   > I pray daily. In my own way, I bring before the eyes of my mind those
> I love and thus into my awareness of the holy in which my life seems to be
> lived. Do I expect miracles to occur, lives to be changed or wholeness
> suddenly to replace brokenness? No, but I do expect to be made more whole,
> to be set free to share my life more deeply with others, to be enabled to
> love beyond my boundaries and to watch the barriers that divide me from
> those I once avoided lowered. Prayer to me is the practice of the presence
> of God, the act of embracing transcendence and the conscious practice of
> sharing with another the gifts of living, loving and being. Can that
> understanding of prayer, so free of miracle and magic, make any real
> difference in our world? I believe it can, it does and it will.
>   >
>   > John Shelby Spong
>   >
>   >
>   > Question & Answer
>   > Clifford Hill of Wheaton, Illinois, writes:
>   >
>   >
>   > Question:
>   > I am a member of a United Methodist Church in Wheaton, Illinois. Over
> the years, I have taught many adult classes and would, in that process,
> include many of Bart Ehrman?s offerings in the Great Courses series.
> Currently, my class has six sessions of his course: After the New
> Testament: The Writings of the Apostolic Fathers, remaining and I had
> planned to present these this coming fall. I received a call from our
> Director of Care Minister, who is the scheduler for adult classes. She
> asked me to cancel this class because some persons, (unknown to me), but
> who are not members of the class, had complained about it. Earlier our
> senior pastor had mentioned to me that I sho
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   OE mailing list
>   OE at lists.wedgeblade.net
>   http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 06:40:16 +0100
> From: Adam Thomson via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> To: "Sarah H. Buss" <shbuss at mac.com>,   "Order Ecumenical Community"
>         <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Responding to Spong on prayer
> Message-ID: <57DAE58D0050A1EB at rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by
>         postmaster at btinternet.com)
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
>  From Adam Thomson, Dover England
>
> This discussion does illustrate some differing
> concepts of the Mystery that exist.
>
> I recall with great affection my time at close
> quarters with Movement colleagues back in the 70s
> and 80s, and I am sad now that I am so far away
> when discussions like this current one on prayer get going.
>
> As Gayle (Wright) my wife and I have journeyed -
> in relative isolation - we have made contact with
> our local Anglican church in Dover whose view on
> anything is pre-RS1, so we find ourselves
> participating and adjusting our public stance to
> ensure that individuals within the congregation
> do not feel threatened by anything we may say,
> but are affirmed; any strategy that might journey
> the group would have to be more on the lines of a
> secular approach such as LENS was.
>
> As it happens, I get great satisfaction out of
> reading Bishop Spong's weekly column, and I don't
> see any "destructive" intention on his part in anything that he says.
>
> As for me, my time in the Order (especially the
> Academy) combined with encountering the writings
> of Spong and Richard Dawkins, suggests to me that:
>
> 1) The human response to the Mystery of Life has
> been to rationalise the Mystery by calling it
> "God", and creating the mythology around it.
>
> 2) Thus "God" is entirely a fabrication of the
> human imagination, embraced - thank God - in the
> scriptures to which we humans are privileged still to have access.
>
> 3) The reality is that there is nothing
> "supernatural" in our existance - the very term
> denies it - but there is indeed the mythology
> that has freighted human consciousness, and will continue to do so.
>
> 4) The mystery of the human spirit and
> spirituality remains - thank God - a mystery.
> However we need to pay heed to the continuing
> fact that we humans have the capacity both to
> create life-giving stories, and to propagate
> life-denying stories. And that is where we in the
> Spirit Movement will always have a job to do - to
> ensure the right stories are told.
>
> 5) In terms of prayer: I have found prayer - as
> voiced in a public setting - entirely helpful, as
> part of sharing and developing a public story.
> And of course, silent prayer is helpful to those
> who have a sense of a personal God - which I don't.
>
> 6) What I have found, in my latter years, is that
> the ONLY way things get done is when we decide to
> work WITH OTHERS to get it done: the word
> "corporate" as we used it in the Order, still has a strong pull on me.
>
> 7) That is why - as an example - Gayle and I are
> utterly bereft and in despair at the disaster
> known as "Brexit" that has struck Europe like a
> bad disease. Nothing in my life has been as bad.
> I am now REALLY looking for the hope beyond hope.
>
> Love to all,
>
> Adam & Gayle Thomson
>
> END OF MESSAGE
>
> At 11:11 AM 18-09-16, you wrote:
> >Perhaps setting ones intention has to do with
> >prayer, assuming we surrender the outcome to the
> >Mystery. Sometimes the "magic" works and
> >sometimes it doesn't . However, it is my
> >experience that the outcome can exceed my
> >expectations or at the very least reveal
> >relevant and creative ways to get there.
> >Sometimes, if I am open, the process and/or the
> >outcome exceeds my expectations. AWESOME when this happens--sheer Mystery.
> >Sarah
> >
> >Sent from my iPhone:
> >
> >On Sep 17, 2016, at 10:59 AM, Susan Fertig via
> >OE <<mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
> >
> >>This makes me so sad to read Spong???s intended
> >>destruction of what I believe to be a real
> >>force and a most precious aspect of our relationship with God.
> >>Why not miracles today as in Jesus??? time?
> >>I???ve witnessed some myself. He sent out
> >>thousands to heal in His name. And they did,
> >>with some success and some failure. Why is one
> >>person healed and one not? How can we know? Why
> >>do we need to know? The outcome in any one case
> >>does not change the call to us to engage in this way.
> >>
> >>And the supernatural qualities of the stories
> >>of Jesus healing people is not mutually
> >>exclusive with the symbolic importance of these
> >>events. Whether the pallet I lie upon
> >>represents my own physical ailment or
> >>disability or whether it represents the
> >>problems in my life that I have not chosen to
> >>confront or overcome and that have crippled me
> >>in a symbolic sense, both elements of that
> >>situation are healable and can be miracles. if
> >>we ask and God chooses to respond. A big
> >>IF.  But suppose God does not choose to respond
> >>in the way we have prayed for? Does that negate
> >>the importance of the interaction with Him? Not
> >>at all. The prayer is a potential source of
> >>intimacy with God for the pray-er that has
> >>little to do with whether or not physical
> >>healing occurs???Does not Spong understand that
> >>his wife???s illness brought great numbers of
> >>people into a new relationship with God as they
> >>prayed for her? If they then took new hope in
> >>concluding that their prayers were being
> >>answered, who is to say that wasn???t true?
> >>Doesn???t he wonder if perhaps his wife lived
> >>longer than expected just to enhance a new or
> >>intensified relationship those praying for her
> >>were discovering with their God? How is Spong
> >>so arrogant as to assume that a sanitation
> >>worker???s wife wouldn???t have people praying
> >>for her just as passionately as people prayed for his wife?
> >>
> >>Love in Christ,
> >>
> >>Susan
> >>
> >>Susan Fertig-Dykes
> >>(personal email account)
> >>
> >>And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and
> >>satisfy thy soul in drought .  Isaiah 58:11
> >>
> >>
> >>Protect against email address harvesting:
> >>Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses;
> >>delete senders??? E-Mail addresses when forwarding.
> >>
> >>NOTE: I won???t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails.
> >>
> >>
> >>From: OE
> >>[<mailto:oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net>mailto:oe-
> bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net]
> >>On Behalf Of James Wiegel via OE
> >>Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 9:56 AM
> >>To: Ellie Stock
> >><<mailto:elliestock at aol.com>elliestock at aol.com>;
> >>  Colleague Dialogue
> >><<mailto:dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> >>Cc: <mailto:oe at wedgeblade.net>oe at wedgeblade.net
> >>Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16,
> >>Spong: Charting a New Reformation, Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer
> (concluded)
> >>
> >>Trying to make sense of Spongs call for
> >>reformation and what is really there.  Read
> >>this section on Prayer, remembered the prayer
> >>song.  See below.  Anyone recall the short courses on prayer from the
> RS1?
> >>
> >>
> >>PRAYER
> >>Tune: Aravah (Hebrew)
> >>
> >>When I see my life
> >>ever is torn
> >>
> >>And loved ones
> >>violated
> >>
> >>And my failures are
> >>daily reborn
> >>
> >>Then sorrow with
> >>heaven is weighted
> >>
> >>Yet I can gladly em-
> >>brace every hour
> >>
> >>And praise God???s
> >>inequity
> >>
> >>I can sing of my blessings
> >>that shower
> >>
> >>My joy
> >>inexpressible be.
> >>
> >>
> >>Now here I stand
> >>battered to and fro
> >>
> >>Now here I stand
> >>battered to and fro
> >>
> >>The chaos within
> >>yet surrounding
> >>
> >>I cry out my want and
> >>the lack that I know
> >>
> >>And power from with-
> >>out feel uplifting.
> >>
> >>
> >>The weight of the world
> >>on my shoulders I bear
> >>
> >>I echo the
> >>voices that cry
> >>
> >>The path of Mankind
> >>with my agony bent
> >>
> >>And my God I???ll fight on
> >>???til I die
> >>
> >>Jim Wiegel
> >><x-apple-data-detectors://0>401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona
> 85353
> >>Tel. <tel:011-623-936-8671>011-623-936-8671 or
> >><tel:011-623-363-3277>011-623-363-3277
> >><mailto:marilyn.oyler at gmail.com>jfwiegel at yahoo.com
> >>www.partnersinparticipation.com
> >>
> >>
> >>"We are no longer living in an era of
> >>change.  We are living in a change of era."  Francis
> >>
> >>Upcoming public course opportunities click here
> >><http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10>http://
> partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10
> >>For online registration go to
> >><http://www.top-training.net/>http://www.top-training.net
> >>
> >>
> >>The AZ ToP?? Community of Practice meets the
> >>1st <x-apple-data-detectors://8>Friday, 1-4 pm,
> >>starting again <x-apple-data-detectors://9>on
> >>Sept 5th at ACYR,
> >><https://www.google.com/maps/place/648+N+5th+Ave/@33.
> 456329,-112.080545,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b123a5312512d:
> 0x93c9f71171108956?hl=>648
> >>N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003
> >>AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP?? courses
> >>
> >>On Sep 16, 2016, at 10:12, Ellie Stock via
> >>Dialogue
> >><<mailto:dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>[]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >><http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?
> u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=ef935d3f1d&e=0471473479>Homepage
> >><http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?
> u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=185c7ac18b&e=0471473479>My
> >>Profile
> >><http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage2.com/track/click?
> u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=151543cc51&e=0471473479>Essay
> >>Archive
> >><http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=
> b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=7e84bb76c5&e=0471473479>Message
> >>Boards
> >><http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?
> u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=03ea9f51ec&e=0471473479>Calendar
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Charting a New Reformation
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer (concludeed)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Before prayer can be made real our
> >>understanding of God, coupled with our
> >>understanding of how the world works, must be
> >>newly defined. Before prayer can have meaning,
> >>it must be built on an honest sharing of life.
> >>Cornelia, the woman about whom I wrote last
> >>week, did that for me. Before prayer can be
> >>discussed in the age in which we live, it must
> >>be drained of its presumed manipulative magic.
> >>It must find expression in the reality of who
> >>we are, not in the details of what we do. These
> >>were the insights that my third story gave to
> >>me as I walked through what was probably the
> >>darkest period of my life, the years 1981-1989.
> >>The learning curve was steep; the depth of
> >>despair was real. I invite you now to enter
> >>that time period with me and to walk through
> >>that experience as I did. This narrative is
> >>true, personal and painful. I have spoken
> >>verbally of it before. I have not written about
> >>it. Doing so even now makes me feel quite vulnerable.
> >>
> >>Around Christmas of 1981, my first wife, Joan
> >>Lydia Ketner Spong, was diagnosed with advanced
> >>breast cancer. She had never been fond of
> >>doctors and so had postponed seeing one until
> >>she felt her symptoms had become critical. She
> >>had discovered a lump in her breast much
> >>earlier and had decided to tell no one for a
> >>very long time. It grew very slowly causing her
> >>to assume, perhaps to hope, that it must be
> >>benign. It remained her secret. That December
> >>as the holidays came into focus, however, the
> >>tumor erupted externally and became a draining
> >>sore. When that occurred, I became alarmed and
> >>got her as quickly as I could to a doctor.
> >>After an examination and later a biopsy, we
> >>heard the verdict. She had a stage four
> >>malignancy. Immediate surgery was required and
> >>massive chemotherapy would have to follow the
> >>surgery. No guarantees were offered even then.
> >>In fact we were told that about two years of
> >>life might be all that we could reasonably
> >>expect. We sank into the shock of that diagnosis.
> >>
> >>At that time I was an active and fairly
> >>high-profile public figure as the bishop of
> >>Newark. We had been engaged in great
> >>controversies over the full acceptance in both
> >>church and society of gay, lesbian, transgender
> >>and bi-sexual persons. I was clearly identified
> >>in this fight and my name was widely recognized
> >>from press and television coverage. People in
> >>public life learn quickly that they really do
> >>not, perhaps cannot, have a private life.
> >>Within minutes, it seemed, the news of both my
> >>wife???s diagnosis and her prognosis spread
> >>until it seemed to me as if the whole world
> >>knew. From that day on, I never visited a
> >>congregation in my diocese for confirmation
> >>that prayers were not offered publicly for my
> >>wife and for me. Prayer groups all over New
> >>Jersey informed us that they were praying for
> >>us ? some were Episcopal, some were RRoman
> >>Catholic and some were ecumenical. The one
> >>thing they all appeared to have in common was
> >>that they knew of the two-year maximum boundary
> >>that presumably my wife and I were facing. I
> >>did not resent this invasion of our privacy. I
> >>was rather appreciative of their efforts, as
> >>was Joan. Their actions felt supportive and
> >>loving. In their own way, the people were
> >>telling us that they really cared for us and,
> >>in whatever way they could, they wanted to
> >>help. They were willing in this way to stand
> >>with us, to share in our pain and in our
> >>struggle. One never rejects love that is so
> >>freely offered, even when the form in which it
> >>comes might not be one???s particular style. So
> >>Joan and I were carried by this wave of love
> >>from those who reached out to us in what was clearly our time of need.
> >>
> >>The months passed and then the years began to
> >>mount. When we passed the two-year prediction
> >>date, and things were still going positively, I
> >>noticed that these prayer groups began to take
> >>credit for my wife???s longevity. In their
> >>letters to me, it almost sounded as if they
> >>believed that they had engaged the powers of
> >>evil in some profound contest that pitted them
> >>on God???s side, holding back God???s enemies.
> >>Their prayers, they suggested, were pushing
> >>back the advance of this demonic sickness. They
> >>were winning the battle and they felt good
> >>about their success. Once again, my response
> >>was not to debate the theological implications
> >>of their understanding of prayer, but simply to
> >>appreciate the level of caring that they were
> >>offering. It was, at least in its intention,
> >>sustaining. I could not help, however, in the
> >>darkness of each night to wonder about the
> >>implications of their understanding of prayer
> >>
> >>???Suppose,??? I thought to myself during a
> >>particularly sleepless time, ???that a member
> >>of the City of Newark???s sanitation department
> >>had a wife with cancer.??? At that time,
> >>Newark, New Jersey, was either at or very near
> >>the top of the list of America???s poorest per
> >>capita cities. I tried to envision just who it
> >>was who might occupy the bottom tier of
> >>Newark???s socio-economic status system. My
> >>mind settled, whether rightly or wrongly, on
> >>the garbage collector working for Newark???s
> >>sanitation department. So I focused on him.
> >>
> >>In this long dark meditation, I wondered how
> >>many prayer groups would have added her name to
> >>their lists. How much public notice would her
> >>illness have achieved? If this couple went to
> >>church, perhaps that community might have been
> >>aware of their struggle, but would services
> >>have been interrupted with passionate petitions
> >>for healing? Would the gates of heaven have
> >>been stormed by massive number of prayers?
> >>Would God, I then wondered, let this man???s
> >>wife die more quickly than my wife? My high
> >>public profile and social prominence alone
> >>caused more prayers to be uttered for my wife
> >>than for his. Would those prayers be a factor,
> >>I wondered, in either healing or longevity?
> >>Does God operate on the basis of human status?
> >>If I believed that prayer worked in this way, I
> >>would immediately become an atheist! I could
> >>not possibly believe in such a deity. This
> >>capricious God would be demonic, it seemed to
> >>me. The cumulative power of many people praying
> >>existed in the case of my wife only because I
> >>was a fairly well known public figure. Is
> >>status a factor in what is thought of as the
> >>healing power of God? When John Paul II
> >>lingered on his death bed for so long, the
> >>whole world joined in prayer for him. Was that
> >>a factor in his long lingering death? When
> >>hurricanes barrel down on a population center
> >>like New Orleans, the cries of millions are
> >>lifted heavenward in prayer. Will the
> >>cumulative power of many prayers affect the
> >>course of a life, change the direction of a
> >>hurricane or alter the path of a disease? Is
> >>that what prayer does? If so, then prayer is a
> >>tool to be used by the mighty, the powerful and
> >>the well-known. If that is true then God
> >>clearly cares more for the rich and famous than
> >>God does for the poor, the forgotten and the
> >>unknown. Such a conclusion becomes
> >>theologically violent, absurd and even
> >>hate-filled. Whatever prayer means, it cannot
> >>be that. My wife lived for six and a half years
> >>from her diagnosis in December of 1981 to her
> >>death in August of 1988. In retrospect, I
> >>treasure that extension of time, but I did not
> >>fully understand then the gift that I was
> >>given. Life is like that. As St. Paul says, we
> >>see only ???through a glass darkly.???
> >>
> >>So I put these stories with their varied and
> >>distinctive insights together. Then I seek to
> >>draw conclusions about what prayer means in the
> >>21st century. Prayer is not and cannot be a
> >>petition from the weak to the all-powerful one
> >>to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.
> >>Prayer does not bend God???s will to a new
> >>conclusion. Prayer does not bring a cure where
> >>there is no possibility of a cure. Prayer does
> >>not create miracles to which we can testify publicly.
> >>
> >>These are little more than the delusions of
> >>yesterday that we are now called on to abandon.
> >>They arose out of the childhood of our
> >>humanity. Today a new question emerges, which
> >>we must face with honesty. Is prayer only the
> >>human act of last resort? Does praying reflect
> >>anything more than the fact that all else has
> >>failed? Why do we say so frequently to people,
> >>???You will be in my prayers,??? when we never
> >>stop to pray? Is it not our impotence in the
> >>face of life???s pain that draws us to pretend
> >>that we actually possess the power to make a
> >>difference, creating nothing more than a
> >>comfortable fantasy land in which we can hide?
> >>
> >>Is my experience, which tells me that loving,
> >>caring and sharing matter, actually real? Can
> >>prayer be defined as something other than this
> >>pious activity? Does it have any claim on
> >>reality? Is prayer a holy activity or is it a
> >>preparation for a time of engaging in a holy
> >>activity? Increasingly, I am moving to the
> >>latter conclusion. It is life that is holy. It
> >>is love that is life-giving. Having the courage
> >>to be all that I can be is the place where God
> >>and life come together for me. If that is so,
> >>is not living, loving and being the essence of
> >>prayer and the meaning of worship? When Paul
> >>enjoined us to ???pray without ceasing??? did
> >>he mean to engage the activity of praying
> >>unceasingly? Or did he mean that we are to see
> >>all of life as a prayer calling the world to
> >>enter that place where life, love and being
> >>reveal the meaning of God? Is Christianity not
> >>coming to the place where my ???I??? meets
> >>another???s ???Thou??? and in that moment God is present?
> >>
> >>I pray daily. In my own way, I bring before the
> >>eyes of my mind those I love and thus into my
> >>awareness of the holy in which my life seems to
> >>be lived. Do I expect miracles to occur, lives
> >>to be changed or wholeness suddenly to replace
> >>brokenness? No, but I do expect to be made more
> >>whole, to be set free to share my life more
> >>deeply with others, to be enabled to love
> >>beyond my boundaries and to watch the barriers
> >>that divide me from those I once avoided
> >>lowered. Prayer to me is the practice of the
> >>presence of God, the act of embracing
> >>transcendence and the conscious practice of
> >>sharing with another the gifts of living,
> >>loving and being. Can that understanding of
> >>prayer, so free of miracle and magic, make any
> >>real difference in our world? I believe it can, it does and it will.
> >>
> >>John Shelby Spong
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Question & Answer
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Clifford Hill of Wheaton, Illinois, writes:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Question:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>I am a member of a United Methodist Church in
> >>Wheaton, Illinois. Over the years, I have
> >>taught many adult classes and would, in that
> >>process, include many of Bart Ehrman???s
> >>offerings in the Great Courses series.
> >>Currently, my class has six sessions of his
> >>course: After the New Testament: The Writings
> >>of the Apostolic Fathers, remaining and I had
> >>planned to present these this coming fall. I
> >>received a call from our Director of Care
> >>Minister, who is the scheduler for adult
> >>classes. She asked me to cancel this class
> >>because some persons, (unknown to me), but who
> >>are not members of the class, had complained
> >>about it. Earlier our senior pastor had
> >>mentioned to me that I should be
> >>???sensitive??? to others??? feelings about
> >>this class and presumably, about Bart Ehrman,
> >>
> >>My question: What is your professional opinion
> >>about the credibility and qualifications of
> >>Professor Bart Ehrman and what is your opinion
> >>about his scholarship as evidenced in his books
> >>and in his Great Courses classes?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Answer:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Dear Cliff,
> >>
> >>I know Bart Ehrman and believe him to be a
> >>competent scholar of the first order. His
> >>expertise is in the period of early Christian
> >>history more than it is in scripture studies
> >>per se. I have listened to all of his classes
> >>in the Great Courses series and have
> >>appreciated his insights, controversial as some
> >>of them well may be. Dr. Ehrman challenges the
> >>popular, but not substantiated, assumption that
> >>there ever was such a thing as ???Orthodox
> >>Christianity. He demonstrates, rather
> >>powerfully, that there were originally ???many
> >>Christianities??? long before what came to be
> >>called traditional orthodoxy emerged with power as ???The One True
> Faith.???
> >>
> >>I suspect that what you are now hearing is not
> >>an objection to Bart Ehrman???s scholarship,
> >>but rather the fact that in one of his recent
> >>books, he stated that he was no longer a
> >>believer. He now calls himself an atheist. He
> >>has had an interesting history, starting in one
> >>of the most conservative and fundamentalist
> >>parts of the Christian Church. In my opinion,
> >>he is still processing his life experience. He
> >>has much to teach us all. No one has to agree
> >>with either his current faith position or with
> >>any of his conclusions; his scholarship is
> >>still impressive. In the book in which he said
> >>that he was no longer a believer, I have an
> >>endorsement on the back cover. In that
> >>endorsement I said I had come to a very
> >>different conclusion, but that I still had a great respect for his work.
> I do.
> >>
> >>John Shelby Spong
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Announcements
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >><http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=
> b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=e95984a88b&e=0471473479>
> >>[]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Bishop Spong speaks at The American Cathedral in Paris on October 16,
> 2016
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >><http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage2.com/track/click?
> u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=2b3daada24&e=0471473479>Click
> >>here for more information
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Dialogue mailing list
> >><mailto:Dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>Dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net
> >>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>OE mailing list
> >><mailto:OE at lists.wedgeblade.net>OE at lists.wedgeblade.net
> >>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
> >_______________________________________________
> >OE mailing list
> >OE at lists.wedgeblade.net
> >http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 07:35:13 +0100
> From: Paul Schrijnen via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> To: Adam Thomson <adam.thomson007 at btinternet.com>,
>         "oe at lists.wedgeblade.net" <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Responding to Spong on prayer
> Message-ID: <2AA42D6E-7A01-4297-A2EC-941CB815670D at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Good Adam,
>
> Like you, I suffer from a deep Brexit blues. A great regressive tragedy.
>
> God only knows how we rise from this.
>
> Indeed, with love to all,
>
> Paul
>
> Paul Schrijnen
> 13 Bloemfontein Avenue
> London W12 7BJ
> paul.schrijnen at gmail.com
> +44 7973 206 766
> skype: paulus.schrijnen
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 18 Sep 2016, at 06:40, Adam Thomson via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > From Adam Thomson, Dover England
> >
> > This discussion does illustrate some differing concepts of the Mystery
> that exist.
> >
> > I recall with great affection my time at close quarters with Movement
> colleagues back in the 70s and 80s, and I am sad now that I am so far away
> when discussions like this current one on prayer get going.
> >
> > As Gayle (Wright) my wife and I have journeyed - in relative isolation -
> we have made contact with our local Anglican church in Dover whose view on
> anything is pre-RS1, so we find ourselves participating and adjusting our
> public stance to ensure that individuals within the congregation do not
> feel threatened by anything we may say, but are affirmed; any strategy that
> might journey the group would have to be more on the lines of a secular
> approach such as LENS was.
> >
> > As it happens, I get great satisfaction out of reading Bishop Spong's
> weekly column, and I don't see any "destructive" intention on his part in
> anything that he says.
> >
> > As for me, my time in the Order (especially the Academy) combined with
> encountering the writings of Spong and Richard Dawkins, suggests to me that:
> >
> > 1) The human response to the Mystery of Life has been to rationalise the
> Mystery by calling it "God", and creating the mythology around it.
> >
> > 2) Thus "God" is entirely a fabrication of the human imagination,
> embraced - thank God - in the scriptures to which we humans are privileged
> still to have access.
> >
> > 3) The reality is that there is nothing "supernatural" in our existance
> - the very term denies it - but there is indeed the mythology that has
> freighted human consciousness, and will continue to do so.
> >
> > 4) The mystery of the human spirit and spirituality remains - thank God
> - a mystery. However we need to pay heed to the continuing fact that we
> humans have the capacity both to create life-giving stories, and to
> propagate life-denying stories. And that is where we in the Spirit Movement
> will always have a job to do - to ensure the right stories are told.
> >
> > 5) In terms of prayer: I have found prayer - as voiced in a public
> setting - entirely helpful, as part of sharing and developing a public
> story. And of course, silent prayer is helpful to those who have a sense of
> a personal God - which I don't.
> >
> > 6) What I have found, in my latter years, is that the ONLY way things
> get done is when we decide to work WITH OTHERS to get it done: the word
> "corporate" as we used it in the Order, still has a strong pull on me.
> >
> > 7) That is why - as an example - Gayle and I are utterly bereft and in
> despair at the disaster known as "Brexit" that has struck Europe like a bad
> disease. Nothing in my life has been as bad. I am now REALLY looking for
> the hope beyond hope.
> >
> > Love to all,
> >
> > Adam & Gayle Thomson
> >
> > END OF MESSAGE
> >
> > At 11:11 AM 18-09-16, you wrote:
> >> Perhaps setting ones intention has to do with prayer, assuming we
> surrender the outcome to the Mystery. Sometimes the "magic" works and
> sometimes it doesn't . However, it is my experience that the outcome can
> exceed my expectations or at the very least reveal relevant and creative
> ways to get there. Sometimes, if I am open, the process and/or the outcome
> exceeds my expectations. AWESOME when this happens--sheer Mystery.
> >> Sarah
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone:
> >>
> >> On Sep 17, 2016, at 10:59 AM, Susan Fertig via OE <
> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> This makes me so sad to read Spong???s intended destruction of what I
> believe to be a real force and a most precious aspect of our relationship
> with God.
> >>> Why not miracles today as in Jesus??? time? I???ve witnessed some
> myself. He sent out thousands to heal in His name. And they did, with some
> success and some failure. Why is one person healed and one not? How can we
> know? Why do we need to know? The outcome in any one case does not change
> the call to us to engage in this way.
> >>>
> >>> And the supernatural qualities of the stories of Jesus healing people
> is not mutually exclusive with the symbolic importance of these events.
> Whether the pallet I lie upon represents my own physical ailment or
> disability or whether it represents the problems in my life that I have not
> chosen to confront or overcome and that have crippled me in a symbolic
> sense, both elements of that situation are healable and can be miracles. if
> we ask and God chooses to respond. A big IF.  But suppose God does not
> choose to respond in the way we have prayed for? Does that negate the
> importance of the interaction with Him? Not at all. The prayer is a
> potential source of intimacy with God for the pray-er that has little to do
> with whether or not physical healing occurs???Does not Spong understand
> that his wife???s illness brought great numbers of people into a new
> relationship with God as they prayed for her? If they then took new hope in
> concluding that their prayers were being answered,
>  who is to say that wasn???t true? Doesn???t he wonder if perhaps his wife
> lived longer than expected just to enhance a new or intensified
> relationship those praying for her were discovering with their God? How is
> Spong so arrogant as to assume that a sanitation worker???s wife wouldn???t
> have people praying for her just as passionately as people prayed for his
> wife?
> >>>
> >>> Love in Christ,
> >>>
> >>> Susan
> >>>
> >>> Susan Fertig-Dykes
> >>> (personal email account)
> >>>
> >>> And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in
> drought .  Isaiah 58:11
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Protect against email address harvesting:
> >>> Use "BCC" when sending to multiple addresses;
> >>> delete senders??? E-Mail addresses when forwarding.
> >>>
> >>> NOTE: I won???t be offended if you ask me to remove you from my emails.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: OE [?mailto:oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:
> oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net>] On Behalf Of James Wiegel via OE
> >>> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 9:56 AM
> >>> To: Ellie Stock <elliestock at aol.com <mailto:elliestock at aol.com>>;
> Colleague Dialogue <?dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:dialogue at lists.
> wedgeblade.net>>
> >>> Cc: oe at wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe at wedgeblade.net>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New
> Reformation, Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)
> >>>
> >>> Trying to make sense of Spongs call for reformation and what is really
> there.  Read this section on Prayer, remembered the prayer song.  See
> below.  Anyone recall the short courses on prayer from the RS1?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> PRAYER
> >>> Tune: Aravah (Hebrew)
> >>>
> >>> When I see my life
> >>> ever is torn
> >>>
> >>> And loved ones
> >>> violated
> >>>
> >>> And my failures are
> >>> daily reborn
> >>>
> >>> Then sorrow with
> >>> heaven is weighted
> >>>
> >>> Yet I can gladly em-
> >>> brace every hour
> >>>
> >>> And praise God???s
> >>> inequity
> >>>
> >>> I can sing of my blessings
> >>> that shower
> >>>
> >>> My joy
> >>> inexpressible be.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Now here I stand
> >>> battered to and fro
> >>>
> >>> Now here I stand
> >>> battered to and fro
> >>>
> >>> The chaos within
> >>> yet surrounding
> >>>
> >>> I cry out my want and
> >>> the lack that I know
> >>>
> >>> And power from with-
> >>> out feel uplifting.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The weight of the world
> >>> on my shoulders I bear
> >>>
> >>> I echo the
> >>> voices that cry
> >>>
> >>> The path of Mankind
> >>> with my agony bent
> >>>
> >>> And my God I???ll fight on
> >>> ???til I die
> >>>
> >>> Jim Wiegel
> >>> 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353
> <x-apple-data-detectors://0>
> >>> Tel. 011-623-936-8671 <tel:011-623-936-8671> or 011-623-363-3277
> <tel:011-623-363-3277>
> >>> jfwiegel at yahoo.com <mailto:marilyn.oyler at gmail.com>
> >>> www.partnersinparticipation.com <http://www.
> partnersinparticipation.com/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "We are no longer living in an era of change.  We are living in a
> change of era."  Francis
> >>>
> >>> Upcoming public course opportunities click here
> >>> http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10 <http://
> partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10>
> >>> For online registration go to http://www.top-training.net <
> http://www.top-training.net/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The AZ ToP?? Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, 1-4 pm
> <x-apple-data-detectors://8>, starting again on Sept 5th
> <x-apple-data-detectors://9> at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 <
> https://www.google.com/maps/place/648+N+5th+Ave/@33.
> 456329,-112.080545,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b123a5312512d:
> 0x93c9f71171108956?hl=>
> >>> AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP?? courses
> >>>
> >>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 10:12, Ellie Stock via Dialogue <?
> dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      Homepage <http://johnshelbyspong.us2.
> list-manage1.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&
> id=ef935d3f1d&e=0471473479>        My Profile <http://johnshelbyspong.us2.
> list-manage1.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&
> id=185c7ac18b&e=0471473479>        Essay Archive <
> http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage2.com/track/click?
> u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=151543cc51&e=0471473479>       Message
> Boards <http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=
> b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=7e84bb76c5&e=0471473479>       Calendar <
> http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?
> u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=03ea9f51ec&e=0471473479>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Charting a New Reformation
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer (concludeed)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Before prayer can be made real our understanding of God, coupled with
> our understanding of how the world works, must be newly defined. Before
> prayer can have meaning, it must be built on an honest sharing of life.
> Cornelia, the woman about whom I wrote last week, did that for me. Before
> prayer can be discussed in the age in which we live, it must be drained of
> its presumed manipulative magic. It must find expression in the reality of
> who we are, not in the details of what we do. These were the insights that
> my third story gave to me as I walked through what was probably the darkest
> period of my life, the years 1981-1989. The learning curve was steep; the
> depth of despair was real. I invite you now to enter that time period with
> me and to walk through that experience as I did. This narrative is true,
> personal and painful. I have spoken verbally of it before. I have not
> written about it. Doing so even now makes me feel quite vulnerable.
> >>>
> >>> Around Christmas of 1981, my first wife, Joan Lydia Ketner Spong, was
> diagnosed with advanced breast cancer. She had never been fond of doctors
> and so had postponed seeing one until she felt her symptoms had become
> critical. She had discovered a lump in her breast much earlier and had
> decided to tell no one for a very long time. It grew very slowly causing
> her to assume, perhaps to hope, that it must be benign. It remained her
> secret. That December as the holidays came into focus, however, the tumor
> erupted externally and became a draining sore. When that occurred, I became
> alarmed and got her as quickly as I could to a doctor. After an examination
> and later a biopsy, we heard the verdict. She had a stage four malignancy.
> Immediate surgery was required and massive chemotherapy would have to
> follow the surgery. No guarantees were offered even then. In fact we were
> told that about two years of life might be all that we could reasonably
> expect. We sank into the shock of that
>   diagnosis.
> >>>
> >>> At that time I was an active and fairly high-profile public figure as
> the bishop of Newark. We had been engaged in great controversies over the
> full acceptance in both church and society of gay, lesbian, transgender and
> bi-sexual persons. I was clearly identified in this fight and my name was
> widely recognized from press and television coverage. People in public life
> learn quickly that they really do not, perhaps cannot, have a private life.
> Within minutes, it seemed, the news of both my wife???s diagnosis and her
> prognosis spread until it seemed to me as if the whole world knew. From
> that day on, I never visited a congregation in my diocese for confirmation
> that prayers were not offered publicly for my wife and for me. Prayer
> groups all over New Jersey informed us that they were praying for us ? some
> were Episcopal, some were RRoman Catholic and some were ecumenical. The one
> thing they all appeared to have in common was that they knew of the
> two-year maximum boundary tha
>  t presumably my wife and I were facing. I did not resent this invasion of
> our privacy. I was rather appreciative of their efforts, as was Joan. Their
> actions felt supportive and loving. In their own way, the people were
> telling us that they really cared for us and, in whatever way they could,
> they wanted to help. They were willing in this way to stand with us, to
> share in our pain and in our struggle. One never rejects love that is so
> freely offered, even when the form in which it comes might not be one???s
> particular style. So Joan and I were carried by this wave of love from
> those who reached out to us in what was clearly our time of need.
> >>>
> >>> The months passed and then the years began to mount. When we passed
> the two-year prediction date, and things were still going positively, I
> noticed that these prayer groups began to take credit for my wife???s
> longevity. In their letters to me, it almost sounded as if they believed
> that they had engaged the powers of evil in some profound contest that
> pitted them on God???s side, holding back God???s enemies. Their prayers,
> they suggested, were pushing back the advance of this demonic sickness.
> They were winning the battle and they felt good about their success. Once
> again, my response was not to debate the theological implications of their
> understanding of prayer, but simply to appreciate the level of caring that
> they were offering. It was, at least in its intention, sustaining. I could
> not help, however, in the darkness of each night to wonder about the
> implications of their understanding of prayer
> >>>
> >>> ???Suppose,??? I thought to myself during a particularly sleepless
> time, ???that a member of the City of Newark???s sanitation department had
> a wife with cancer.??? At that time, Newark, New Jersey, was either at or
> very near the top of the list of America???s poorest per capita cities. I
> tried to envision just who it was who might occupy the bottom tier of
> Newark???s socio-economic status system. My mind settled, whether rightly
> or wrongly, on the garbage collector working for Newark???s sanitation
> department. So I focused on him.
> >>>
> >>> In this long dark meditation, I wondered how many prayer groups would
> have added her name to their lists. How much public notice would her
> illness have achieved? If this couple went to church, perhaps that
> community might have been aware of their struggle, but would services have
> been interrupted with passionate petitions for healing? Would the gates of
> heaven have been stormed by massive number of prayers? Would God, I then
> wondered, let this man???s wife die more quickly than my wife? My high
> public profile and social prominence alone caused more prayers to be
> uttered for my wife than for his. Would those prayers be a factor, I
> wondered, in either healing or longevity? Does God operate on the basis of
> human status? If I believed that prayer worked in this way, I would
> immediately become an atheist! I could not possibly believe in such a
> deity. This capricious God would be demonic, it seemed to me. The
> cumulative power of many people praying existed in the case of my wif
>  e only because I was a fairly well known public figure. Is status a
> factor in what is thought of as the healing power of God? When John Paul II
> lingered on his death bed for so long, the whole world joined in prayer for
> him. Was that a factor in his long lingering death? When hurricanes barrel
> down on a population center like New Orleans, the cries of millions are
> lifted heavenward in prayer. Will the cumulative power of many prayers
> affect the course of a life, change the direction of a hurricane or alter
> the path of a disease? Is that what prayer does? If so, then prayer is a
> tool to be used by the mighty, the powerful and the well-known. If that is
> true then God clearly cares more for the rich and famous than God does for
> the poor, the forgotten and the unknown. Such a conclusion becomes
> theologically violent, absurd and even hate-filled. Whatever prayer means,
> it cannot be that. My wife lived for six and a half years from her
> diagnosis in December of 1981 to her death in
>   August of 1988. In retrospect, I treasure that extension of time, but I
> did not fully understand then the gift that I was given. Life is like that.
> As St. Paul says, we see only ???through a glass darkly.???
> >>>
> >>> So I put these stories with their varied and distinctive insights
> together. Then I seek to draw conclusions about what prayer means in the
> 21st century. Prayer is not and cannot be a petition from the weak to the
> all-powerful one to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. Prayer does
> not bend God???s will to a new conclusion. Prayer does not bring a cure
> where there is no possibility of a cure. Prayer does not create miracles to
> which we can testify publicly.
> >>>
> >>> These are little more than the delusions of yesterday that we are now
> called on to abandon. They arose out of the childhood of our humanity.
> Today a new question emerges, which we must face with honesty. Is prayer
> only the human act of last resort? Does praying reflect anything more than
> the fact that all else has failed? Why do we say so frequently to people,
> ???You will be in my prayers,??? when we never stop to pray? Is it not our
> impotence in the face of life???s pain that draws us to pretend that we
> actually possess the power to make a difference, creating nothing more than
> a comfortable fantasy land in which we can hide?
> >>>
> >>> Is my experience, which tells me that loving, caring and sharing
> matter, actually real? Can prayer be defined as something other than this
> pious activity? Does it have any claim on reality? Is prayer a holy
> activity or is it a preparation for a time of engaging in a holy activity?
> Increasingly, I am moving to the latter conclusion. It is life that is
> holy. It is love that is life-giving. Having the courage to be all that I
> can be is the place where God and life come together for me. If that is so,
> is not living, loving and being the essence of prayer and the meaning of
> worship? When Paul enjoined us to ???pray without ceasing??? did he mean to
> engage the activity of praying unceasingly? Or did he mean that we are to
> see all of life as a prayer calling the world to enter that place where
> life, love and being reveal the meaning of God? Is Christianity not coming
> to the place where my ???I??? meets another???s ???Thou??? and in that
> moment God is present?
> >>>
> >>> I pray daily. In my own way, I bring before the eyes of my mind those
> I love and thus into my awareness of the holy in which my life seems to be
> lived. Do I expect miracles to occur, lives to be changed or wholeness
> suddenly to replace brokenness? No, but I do expect to be made more whole,
> to be set free to share my life more deeply with others, to be enabled to
> love beyond my boundaries and to watch the barriers that divide me from
> those I once avoided lowered. Prayer to me is the practice of the presence
> of God, the act of embracing transcendence and the conscious practice of
> sharing with another the gifts of living, loving and being. Can that
> understanding of prayer, so free of miracle and magic, make any real
> difference in our world? I believe it can, it does and it will.
> >>>
> >>> John Shelby Spong
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Question & Answer
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Clifford Hill of Wheaton, Illinois, writes:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Question:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I am a member of a United Methodist Church in Wheaton, Illinois. Over
> the years, I have taught many adult classes and would, in that process,
> include many of Bart Ehrman???s offerings in the Great Courses series.
> Currently, my class has six sessions of his course: After the New
> Testament: The Writings of the Apostolic Fathers, remaining and I had
> planned to present these this coming fall. I received a call from our
> Director of Care Minister, who is the scheduler for adult classes. She
> asked me to cancel this class because some persons, (unknown to me), but
> who are not members of the class, had complained about it. Earlier our
> senior pastor had mentioned to me that I should be ???sensitive??? to
> others??? feelings about this class and presumably, about Bart Ehrman,
> >>>
> >>> My question: What is your professional opinion about the credibility
> and qualifications of Professor Bart Ehrman and what is your opinion about
> his scholarship as evidenced in his books and in his Great Courses classes?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Answer:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dear Cliff,
> >>>
> >>> I know Bart Ehrman and believe him to be a competent scholar of the
> first order. His expertise is in the period of early Christian history more
> than it is in scripture studies per se. I have listened to all of his
> classes in the Great Courses series and have appreciated his insights,
> controversial as some of them well may be. Dr. Ehrman challenges the
> popular, but not substantiated, assumption that there ever was such a thing
> as ???Orthodox Christianity. He demonstrates, rather powerfully, that there
> were originally ???many Christianities??? long before what came to be
> called traditional orthodoxy emerged with power as ???The One True Faith.???
> >>>
> >>> I suspect that what you are now hearing is not an objection to Bart
> Ehrman???s scholarship, but rather the fact that in one of his recent
> books, he stated that he was no longer a believer. He now calls himself an
> atheist. He has had an interesting history, starting in one of the most
> conservative and fundamentalist parts of the Christian Church. In my
> opinion, he is still processing his life experience. He has much to teach
> us all. No one has to agree with either his current faith position or with
> any of his conclusions; his scholarship is still impressive. In the book in
> which he said that he was no longer a believer, I have an endorsement on
> the back cover. In that endorsement I said I had come to a very different
> conclusion, but that I still had a great respect for his work. I do.
> >>>
> >>> John Shelby Spong
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Announcements
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ? <http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=
> b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=e95984a88b&e=0471473479>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Bishop Spong speaks at The American Cathedral in Paris on October 16,
> 2016
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Click here for more information <http://johnshelbyspong.us2.
> list-manage2.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&
> id=2b3daada24&e=0471473479>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net <
> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> End of OE Digest, Vol 54, Issue 15
> **********************************
>



-- 
David Flowers

"Whatever the problem, community is the answer.  There is no power greater
than a community discovering what it cares about."  Margaret Wheatley
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