[Oe List ...] A review of Charles Taylor's "The Secular Society"

LAURELCG at aol.com LAURELCG at aol.com
Wed Jul 10 13:15:53 PDT 2013


Thanks, Randy. Now I remember why I liked the book so much, and Connie and  
Michael's course.
 
Jann
 
 
In a message dated 7/10/2013 3:10:02 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
rcwmbw at yahoo.com writes:




Friends,
 
I'm fresh off having finished Dowd's book.  Like most  writers on this 
subject these days, from my perspective he gets a lot of it  right, a lot of it 
wrong, ignores a lot of what I consider pertinent, and  overall raises some 
very good questions to ponder.  I have no interest  in, nor basis for, 
defending Dowd, but here are some of his points that  particularly resonated with 
me.
 
For one, David, I believe  he does exactly what you suggest in your last 
statement, he reconciles the  conflict between religious faith and scientific 
knowledge.  It is no  particular leap for me to say, for example, that the 
story of creation is  stated in one genre in the Bible (which Dowd would call 
"night language") and  another way scientifically (which he would call "day 
language"), the latter  expressed with the word "evolution," but that both 
are talking about the same  reality.  I personally prefer words like 
"emergence" or "unfolding" in  place of evolution but believe they are pointing to 
same  thing.  And a key part of his message is that what  all this points to 
is still going on and forever will be.  I harken  to the words in 
Revelation, "Behold, I make all things new," present tense  with future implied.
 
Another, I have no difficulty with Dowd's calling God  "Ultimate Reality" 
and find that not too far from Tillich's "ground of  being."  Both insist 
that God is not one reality or one being among  others, but the basis, 
foundation, context, etc. for all.  And the  faith question in relation to that 
ultimate groundedness is not, "What do  you believe?" but rather "What do you 
trust to the point that are you  willing to stake your life on it?"
 
Jack, to your point about rationalizing away mystery, my  reading of Dowd 
(perhaps because this is what I want him to say) is that once  you have 
explained scientifically how something in the religious  arena works or happens, 
that need not take the mystery out of  it.  My example--child birth.  I have 
a layman's knowledge of how  this happens scientifically, but it is no less 
mysterious and awe-filling  each time it occurs.  I could say the same 
about death.  Hence  in his talk about "public" and "private" revelation and  
about rational, factual language and about mythical,  metaphorical language, 
the use of one does not cancel out the need for  the other.  While I am not 
as ready as he appears to be to discount  the role and impact of scripture 
and tradition as being obsolete,  my Wesleyan heritage puts me right with him 
in affirming  that revelation is sourced not only through  scripture and 
tradition but also through reason and  experience. One of the ideas he pushes 
at hard is that God's evolutional,  revelatory, creative activity did not 
stop and the end of the sixth day  in Genesis or the day the last writer of the 
New Testament, or some other  wisdom literature, put down his pen.
 
Other points that caught my attention: that  emergence happens through us 
in partnership with God; service to the  Whole a big part of what we would 
call profound humanness;  the dominant metaphor is changing from a mechanical 
to a nested,  networked world, etc. etc. etc.
 
Thanks, Herman, for prompting this conversation (again)  and to all who are 
participating in it.
 
Randy



 
 

From:  "jlepps at pc.jaring.my" <jlepps at pc.jaring.my>
To: Order Ecumenical Community  <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> 
Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 8:19  PM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...]  A review of Charles Taylor's "The Secular 
Society"



How could I stay out of this conversation???

There are at least  three essays in my forthcoming book that address this 
issue. 2 are reviews of  naive "theological" statements by Steven Hawking, 
and one is an essay on  Faith. The latter is particularly pertinent here, 
since much of the  controversy is about mis-understanding of language. Briefly, 
Faith seeks  understanding, Faith seeks action, and Faith seeks expression. 
It's the  expressions of faith that are sometimes confused with 
understandings of faith,  and this leads to grossly flawed (and "unscientific") beliefs. 
It's as if one  were to take Humpty Dumpty as a historical account rather 
than a mythological  statement of profound truth!

Anyway the book is called "The Theology of  Surprise: Exploring Life's 
Mysteries." It should be out around the first of  August through Resurgence 
Publishing. Should be available through Amazon  soon.

John

At 04:19 PM 7/9/2013, you wrote:

On Jul 9, 2013, at  3:49 PM, Herman Greene <_hfgreenenc at gmail.com_ 
(mailto:hfgreenenc at gmail.com) >  wrote:


Now this is an  incomplete response and there is much more to be said, 
including some  positive things about Michael's approach. By the way, in some 
senses I am  a religious naturalist, but along the lines of process theology. 
See  

_Reenchantment without Supernaturalism: A  Process Philosophy of Religion 
(Cornell Studies in the Philosophy  of..._ 
(http://www.amazon.com/Reenchantment-without-Supernaturalism-Philosophy-Religion/dp/0801486572/ref=sr_1_10?ie=U
TF8&qid=1373406412&sr=8-10&keywords=David+Ray+Griffin)  by _David Ray 
Griffin_ 
(http://www.amazon.com/David-Ray-Griffin/e/B000APTCK4/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_10?qid=1373406412&sr=8-10)  (Nov 16, 2000). In the  process approach 
there's plenty of transcendence as well as immanence, and  religious knowledge is 
not only what can be known through the five senses  and logic. There are 
other ways of  knowing.




I think of myself as an avid  scientist. What I believe is secondary and 
derivative of what I experience,  with gratitude to the RS-I and Frank, Amy, 
Lyn, et al. I find myself  thinking these days, "I don't believe in God, I 
have a God  Hypothesis."

I observe in more ways than I can name a mystery, depth,  and greatness in 
the world (and dozens of et ceteras that I'll lump under  the category 
gracious and holy mystery) that come at me in the form of  relationships and 
events, inside me and outside me. It's all sustaining and  energizing, etc., etc.

My God hypothesis (for which read: narrative  of what to expect) gives me 
eyes to see. My hypothesis is a narrative about  trinitarian dynamics 
(limits, possibilities, freedom) and it has been  uniformly and reliably predictive 
for over 40 years now. It's saved my life,  one might say.

Rather than "do you believe in God?" I prefer to ask,  "What are our images 
of God? Are they predictive of life experience? Do they  give us eyes to 
see?" 

I toy with images of myself as contemplative  or mystic or inveterate 
listener or ceaseless questioner. All of them,  really, are about constantly, 
unobtrusively observing, testing my  hypothesis, refining my images of the way 
life is, and looking again, to see  if I can see more of what is there and 
what is real.

I think I'd  better read Dowd, Griffin, and Brooks, to see what all the 
energy is  about.

I go a bit berserk at the endless, mindless contraversy about  conflict 
between religious belief and scientific  knowledge.

David



---




David  Dunn
740 S Alton Way 9B
Denver, CO 80247
720-314-5991
_dmdunn1 at gmail.com_ (mailto:dmdunn1 at gmail.com) 



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