[Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Guernica & Conversation Roots & Shoots

Herman Greene hfgreene at mindspring.com
Fri May 4 14:21:54 PDT 2012

If the methods are true to life, it would be highly surprising if our
methods are ours alone.




From: oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net
[mailto:oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of George Packard
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 10:59 PM
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Guernica & Conversation Roots & Shoots


Well said, Susan.



From: oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net
[mailto:oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Susan Fertig
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 8:20 PM
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Guernica & Conversation Roots & Shoots


Well, the "not ours alone" is relative.  We really have no idea how far we
permeated the global culture "back then", and how many of these "similar
sounding" methodologies may have actually come from our early experiments
across this earth and it's people and cultures.


During the time I was working in Bosnia, my staff would, from time to time,
get discouraged because they could not grasp with both hands the results of
what we were doing.  I would encourage them to be patient because this kind
of transformation doesn't happen in a day, but also I would tell them, "If
we are doing our job right, in 10 year's time we will not be able to
discern more than remnants of our influence, because those we are working
with will, by then, have taken our methods and shaken them up in a bag with
other things they're learning, and they will have made it all their own.
Now THAT would be real success for us."   It's like Hesse's Journey to the
East, where he kept seeing things that seemed familiar but couldn't quite
come clearly into recognizable focus.




From: oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net
[mailto:oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net]
<mailto:%5bmailto:oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net%5d>  On Behalf Of
LAURELCG at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:04 PM
To: Oe at wedgeblade.net; dialogue at wedgeblade.net
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Guernica & Conversation Roots & Shoots


Can no longer resist jumping into this stream. John's observation that this
conversation method isn't "ours alone" is so right. My bilingual education
mentor, Alma Flor Ada, whose mentor was Paulo Freire, called her version of
the methodology Creative Education. Its four phases are Descriptive,
Personal Interpretive, Critical and Creative. I shared this material with Jo
Nelson when she was writing The Art of Focused Conversation. You can find
more about it on page 24 of that book.


Matthew Fox's description of the fourfold path of Creation Spirituality also
takes one on a deepening journey: Via Positiva, Via Negativa, Via Creativa
and Via Transformativa.


I'm taking an online course, Integral Enlightenment, with Craig Hamilton.
Quite intense. The response of the thousand-plus participants around the
globe reminds me of how some of us responded to RS-1. The evolutionary
spirituality movement, with its call to be "pioneers on the point of
evolution," has a familiar feeling tone. On my third reading of Evolutionary
Enlightenment by Andrew Cohen, I'm charting it, rather laboriously, as I
tend to do things. I think it brings Kaz's Spiritual Exercises into the 21st
century with a rather practical application.


We're living in exciting times.


Blessings, dear colleagues,

Jann McGuire


Illness as Initiation: An Unlikely Heroine's Journey at




In a message dated 5/3/2012 8:22:01 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
jlepps at pc.jaring.my writes:


Since this stream has involved a bit of ORID-bashing (or de-sanctifying if
you prefer) I'd like to say a little on its behalf. 

O-R-I-D is simply the sequence in which the mind works. We perceive
something, we react to it, we make sense of it, and we act appropriately.
When a facilitator sequences conversation questions in that order, the
dialogue flows naturally. The "depth" to which it goes depends on the
subject and the group and, to some extent, the facilitator. 

We recently presented this "method" to a group of judges in Singapore and
invited them to try it with a scripted conversation at their 5 tables. The
topic was "mentors." The bottom dropped out; All five table conversations
went deep, and awe filled the room. On reflection, the people gathered said
the reason it worked was the sequence of the questions: they flowed
naturally. Often that type conversation yields pious or abstract
characteristics of mentors; this one was specific and based on experience of
group members. As an outside observer during this conversation, I thought it
became a spirit conversation under the category of meditation. 

ORID, though belonging to the ToP suite of methods, is not "ours" alone. I
attended a workshop at an IAF meeting in Germany in which the workshop
leader (from the UK) presented a conversation method entitled 4-F (facts,
feelings, findings, future). The leader had never heard of ORID. 

When you see what passes for group conversations in most situations, having
a sensible sequence that considers how the mind works is a major step
forward. How "deep" we let it go depends on how well thought-through our
questions are at the "I" and "D" levels - and what is our aim in conducting
the conversation in the first place. 

I look forward to your responses.

John Epps

At 05:06 AM 5/3/2012, you wrote:

I revere the "art form" methodology as much as and appreciate its
contribution over the years to our "knowing."  However, in more recent years
I've arrived at a slightly evolved understanding of knowing, having not so
much to do with clarity, awareness, consciousness and all of that as we used
to define those words.  For me knowing now has more to do with "metanoia,"
what the late Willis Harman called "mind change," which I take to mean
seeing the world differently to the extent that one revises ones stories of
reality and as a result, lives life differently.  The NT translation of
"metanoia" is "born again," and it can occur again and again in the course
of a lifetime.
To allow this to happen, I'm finding conversational approaches like Bohmian
(physicist David Bohm) dialogue to be more effective.  It is much less
structured than ORID, and therefore more open-ended and less prescriptive
about desired outcomes.  It is more of an art than an art form.  The
conclusions arrived at by the individual participants are less important
than the communal bonds established in the process, built not on the basis
of having arrived at a common mind (read "consensus") regarding the subject
at hand, but on the foundation of discovered and acknowledged
interdependence and shared destiny, i.e., community.  ORID, which still has
a valuable role to play in our work, depends more on the discipline of the
facilitator.  "Dialogue" seems to me to depend more on the discipline of the
participants, with a skilled facilitator way over on the side.
I think generally we ICA types need to loosen up a bit, occasionally put
away our work sheets with prescribed outcomes, and acknowledge that good
things can happen, and are happening, without our having to engineer
them--in the midst of which we can be participants with meaningful
contributions to make in our role as partners.  
"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the
world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires."
-Martin Buber (adapted)
From: steve har <stevehar11201 at gmail.com>
To: dialogue at wedgeblade.net 
Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 1:08 PM
Subject: [Dialogue] Guernica & Conversation Roots & Shoots

Regarding Wayne's assertion: "The basic phenomonology of the conversation
method has not changed. It has always been oriented toward the ontological.
If it isn't, it is some other method - put it that way."

With respect, I'm afraid I disagree with Wayne's assertion that the basic
conversation method has changed. What has changed is the the emphasis of the

In the Art Form method the conversation is "for" being. It is
ontological-existential and ethical. In the ORID format [as articulated in
ToP] the focus is knowing and sharing something inside the context of a
facilitator-client agreement with a particular group of participants. the
conversation is "for" knowing i.e epistemological.

Brian Stanfield's wonderful book of Focused Conversations really highlights
this shift to the client-consultant workplace -which was a new field of
engagement in which to practice conversation making. 

Reading Brian's workplace conversation models is like reading the music
scores for Bach's Well-tempered Clavier. Publishing those models really did
change the conversation focus in my view. Of course there is other music to
score and play besides Bach's and there are other conversations to model
besides conversations for knowing [epistemology].

 JWM's NRM monastic  distinctions are really powerful:  Knowing | Being |
Doing are actually phenomenological distinctions for sorting out the
internal and social experiences that open up in conversations and dialogues.

A conversation "for Being" [ontology]  is an entirely different score and it
creates an entirely different kind of conversational "music" that has a much
wider and deeper expression - like the original Guernica Art From
conversation did or like the Tombstone conversation did. In these
conversations, you get to declare something, you get to take a stand and say
what you value. The questions can reveal personal character, what was lost,
what was gained, who you are being in this moment as a human being. The
conversation can be profoundly existential i.e. ontological. It can also
contain varieties of ontological language like mythological and religious

There are 2 wonderful "Tombstone Conversations" for being done recently by
Charlie Rose in commemorating the death of 
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12297 and Christa Tippitt
Contemplating Mortality 

A conversation for Doing -using JWM's NRM phenomenology is Largely
unexplored in my opinion. John Epps wrote some brilliant and new Other World
in This World conversations in 1996 which I found in the 6th floor Archives
last summer. last summer we tried some over skype. Bruce Hanson gave a
wonderful talk using the other world charts and Hoksai's pictures to
describe an Appreciative Inquiry assignment at Hitachi Company on the
outskirts of Tokyo. He talked about himself as being a navigator on an
otherworld trek.

In my view the Jenkins's book on the 9 disciplines is a clearheaded
translation of the old monastic categories. What remains is to see clearly
the Knowing Being and Doing phenomenology in practice and in roles like the
role of a facilitator and the new roles of pedagogue, story maker, coach,

So in sum, the point wasn't to jump on Wayne's good thoughts. The point is
to make some new distinctions about conversations that freshen the wind and
hear new music...


Steve Harrington

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