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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If the methods are true to life, it would
be highly surprising if our methods are ours alone.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Herman<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>George Packard<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, May 03, 2012 10:59
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> '<st1:PersonName w:st="on">Order
Ecumenical Community</st1:PersonName>'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Oe List ...]
[Dialogue] Guernica & Conversation Roots & Shoots</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Well said, Susan.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>George<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Susan Fertig<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, May 03, 2012 8:20
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> '<st1:PersonName w:st="on">Order
Ecumenical Community</st1:PersonName>'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Oe List ...]
[Dialogue] Guernica & Conversation Roots & Shoots<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Well, the “not ours
alone” is relative. We really have no idea how far we permeated the
global culture “back then”, and how many of these “similar sounding”
methodologies may have actually come from our early experiments across this
earth and it’s people and cultures.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>During the time I
was working in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bosnia</st1:place></st1:country-region>,
my staff would, from time to time, get discouraged because they could not grasp
with both hands the results of what we were doing. I would encourage them
to be patient because this kind of transformation doesn’t happen in a day, but
also I would tell them, “If we are doing our job right, in 10 year’s time we
will not be able to discern more than remnants of our influence, because
those we are working with will, by then, have taken our methods and shaken them
up in a bag with other things they’re learning, and they will have made it all
their own. Now THAT would be real success for us.” It’s like <st1:place
w:st="on">Hesse</st1:place>’s <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Journey to the
East</span></i>, where he kept seeing things that seemed familiar but couldn’t
quite come clearly into recognizable focus…<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=4 color="#4f81bd" face=Papyrus><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Papyrus;color:#4F81BD;font-weight:bold'>Susan<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a
href="mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>
<a href="mailto:%5bmailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net%5d">[mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net]</a>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b><a
href="mailto:LAURELCG@aol.com">LAURELCG@aol.com</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:04
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:Oe@wedgeblade.net">Oe@wedgeblade.net</a>; <a
href="mailto:dialogue@wedgeblade.net">dialogue@wedgeblade.net</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Oe List ...]
[Dialogue] Guernica & Conversation Roots & Shoots<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Can no longer resist jumping into
this stream. John's observation that this conversation method isn't "ours
alone" is so right. My bilingual education mentor, Alma Flor Ada, whose
mentor was Paulo Freire, called her version of the methodology <strong><b><i><font
face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;font-style:italic'>Creative
Education.</span></font></i></b></strong><em><i><font face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial'> </span></font></i></em>Its four phases are <em><i><font
face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'>Descriptive, Personal Interpretive,
Critical and Creative.</span></font></i></em> I shared this material with Jo
Nelson when she was writing <em><b><i><font face=Arial><span style='font-family:
Arial;font-weight:bold'>The Art of Focused Conversation. </span></font></i></b></em>You
can find more about it on page 24 of that book.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Matthew
Fox</span></font></st1:PersonName><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>'s description of the
fourfold path of Creation Spirituality also takes one on a deepening journey: <em><i><font
face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'>Via Positiva, Via Negativa, Via
Creativa and Via Transformativa.</span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I'm taking an online course, <em><i><font
face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'>Integral Enlightenment, </span></font></i></em>with
Craig Hamilton. Quite intense. The response of the thousand-plus participants
around the globe reminds me of how some of us responded to RS-1. The
evolutionary spirituality movement, with its call to be "pioneers on the
point of evolution," has a familiar feeling tone. On my third reading of <em><b><i><font
face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Evolutionary
Enlightenment</span></font></i></b></em> by Andrew Cohen, I'm charting it,
rather laboriously, as I tend to do things. I think it brings Kaz's <em><b><i><font
face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Spiritual Exercises
</span></font></i></b></em>into the 21st century with a rather practical
application.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>We're living in exciting times.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Blessings, dear colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Jann McGuire<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><b><i><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-style:italic'>Illness
as Initiation: </span></font></i></b></strong><em><i><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>An
Unlikely Heroine's Journey </span></font></i></em><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>at <a
href="http://booklocker.com/books/5100.html">http://booklocker.com/books/5100.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><a href="http://jannsjewels.blogspot.com">http://jannsjewels.blogspot.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>In a message dated 5/3/2012 8:22:01 A.M.
Pacific Daylight Time, <a href="mailto:jlepps@pc.jaring.my">jlepps@pc.jaring.my</a>
writes:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><br>
Colleagues:<br>
<br>
Since this stream has involved a bit of ORID-bashing (or de-sanctifying if you
prefer) I’d like to say a little on its behalf. <br>
<br>
O-R-I-D is simply the sequence in which the mind works. We perceive something,
we react to it, we make sense of it, and we act appropriately. When a
facilitator sequences conversation questions in that order, the dialogue flows
naturally. The “depth” to which it goes depends on the subject and the group
and, to some extent, the facilitator. <br>
<br>
We recently presented this “method” to a group of judges in <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Singapore</st1:place></st1:country-region> and
invited them to try it with a scripted conversation at their 5 tables. The
topic was “mentors.” The bottom dropped out; All five table conversations went
deep, and awe filled the room. On reflection, the people gathered said the
reason it worked was the sequence of the questions: they flowed naturally.
Often that type conversation yields pious or abstract characteristics of
mentors; this one was specific and based on experience of group members. As an
outside observer during this conversation, I thought it became a spirit
conversation under the category of meditation. <br>
<br>
ORID, though belonging to the ToP suite of methods, is not “ours” alone. I
attended a workshop at an IAF meeting in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Germany</st1:country-region>
in which the workshop leader (from the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">UK</st1:place></st1:country-region>) presented a conversation method
entitled 4-F (facts, feelings, findings, future). The leader had never heard of
ORID. <br>
<br>
When you see what passes for group conversations in most situations, having a
sensible sequence that considers how the mind works is a major step forward.
How “deep” we let it go depends on how well thought-through our questions are
at the “I” and “D” levels – and what is our aim in conducting the conversation
in the first place. <br>
<br>
I look forward to your responses.<br>
<br>
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">John Epps</st1:PersonName><br>
<br>
<br>
At 05:06 AM 5/3/2012, you wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Steve,<br>
<br>
I revere the "art form" methodology as much as and appreciate its
contribution over the years to our "knowing." However, in more
recent years I've arrived at a slightly evolved understanding of knowing,
having not so much to do with clarity, awareness, consciousness and all of that
as we used to define those words. For me knowing now has more to do with
"metanoia," what the late Willis Harman called "mind
change," which I take to mean seeing the world differently to the extent
that one revises ones stories of reality and as a result, lives life
differently. The NT translation of "metanoia" is "born
again," and it can occur again and again in the course of a lifetime.<br>
<br>
To allow this to happen, I'm finding conversational approaches like Bohmian
(physicist David Bohm) dialogue to be more effective. It is much less
structured than ORID, and therefore more open-ended and less prescriptive about
desired outcomes. It is more of an art than an art form. The
conclusions arrived at by the individual participants are less important than
the communal bonds established in the process, built not on the basis of having
arrived at a common mind (read "consensus") regarding the subject at
hand, but on the foundation of discovered and acknowledged interdependence and
shared destiny, i.e., community. ORID, which still has a valuable role to
play in our work, depends more on the discipline of the facilitator.
"Dialogue" seems to me to depend more on the discipline of the
participants, with a skilled facilitator way over on the side.<br>
<br>
I think generally we <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">ICA</st1:place></st1:City>
types need to loosen up a bit, occasionally put away our work sheets with
prescribed outcomes, and acknowledge that good things can happen, and are
happening, without our having to engineer them--in the midst of which we can be
participants with meaningful contributions to make in our role as
partners. <br>
<br>
Randy<br>
<br>
"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the
world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it
desires."<br>
-Martin Buber (adapted)<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> steve har <<a
href="mailto:stevehar11201@gmail.com">stevehar11201@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:dialogue@wedgeblade.net">dialogue@wedgeblade.net</a> <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, May 1, 2012 1:08 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Dialogue] Guernica &
Conversation Roots & Shoots<br>
<br>
<br>
Regarding <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Wayne</st1:place></st1:City>'s
assertion: "The basic phenomonology of the conversation method has not
changed. It has always been oriented toward the ontological. If it isn't, it is
some other method - put it that way."<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color="#222222" face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222'>With respect, I'm afraid I disagree
with <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Wayne</st1:place></st1:City>'s
assertion that the basic conversation method has changed. What has changed is
the the emphasis of the conversation. <br>
<br>
In the Art Form method the conversation is "for" being. It is
ontological-existential and ethical. In the ORID format [as articulated in ToP]
the focus is knowing and sharing something inside the context of a
facilitator-client agreement with a particular group of participants. the
conversation is "for" knowing i.e epistemological.<br>
<br>
Brian Stanfield's wonderful book of Focused Conversations really highlights
this shift to the client-consultant workplace -which was a new field of
engagement in which to practice conversation making. <br>
<br>
Reading Brian's workplace conversation models is like reading the music scores
for Bach's Well-tempered Clavier. Publishing those models really did change the
conversation focus in my view. Of course there is other music to score and play
besides Bach's and there are other conversations to model besides conversations
for knowing [epistemology].<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> JWM's NRM monastic distinctions are
really powerful: Knowing | Being | Doing are actually phenomenological
distinctions for sorting out the internal and social experiences that open up
in conversations and dialogues. <br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color="#222222" face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222'>A conversation "for Being"
[ontology] is an entirely different score and it creates an entirely
different kind of conversational "music" that has a much wider and
deeper expression - like the original Guernica Art From conversation did or
like the Tombstone conversation did. In these conversations, you get to declare
something, you get to take a stand and say what you value. The questions can
reveal personal character, what was lost, what was gained, who you are being in
this moment as a human being. The conversation can be profoundly existential
i.e. ontological. It can also contain varieties of ontological language like
mythological and religious expression.<br>
<br>
There are 2 wonderful "Tombstone Conversations" for being done
recently by Charlie Rose in commemorating the death of <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'><a
href="http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12297"
title="http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12297">http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12297</a>
and Christa Tippitt Contemplating Mortality <br>
<a href="http://being.publicradio.org/programs/2012/contemplating-mortality/"
title="http://being.publicradio.org/programs/2012/contemplating-mortality/">http://being.publicradio.org/programs/2012/contemplating-mortality/</a>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color="#222222" face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#222222'><br>
A conversation for Doing -using JWM's NRM phenomenology is Largely unexplored
in my opinion. <st1:PersonName w:st="on">John Epps</st1:PersonName> wrote some
brilliant and new Other World in This World conversations in 1996 which I found
in the 6th floor Archives last summer. last summer we tried some over skype.
Bruce Hanson gave a wonderful talk using the other world charts and Hoksai's
pictures to describe an Appreciative Inquiry assignment at Hitachi Company on
the outskirts of <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City>.
He talked about himself as being a navigator on an otherworld trek.<br>
<br>
In my view the Jenkins's book on the 9 disciplines is a clearheaded translation
of the old monastic categories. What remains is to see clearly the Knowing
Being and Doing phenomenology in practice and in roles like the role of a
facilitator and the new roles of pedagogue, story maker, coach, navigator<br>
<br>
So in sum, the point wasn't to jump on <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Wayne</st1:place></st1:City>'s
good thoughts. The point is to make some new distinctions about conversations
that freshen the wind and hear new music...<br>
<br>
Steve <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Steve Harrington<br>
<br>
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