[Dialogue] The Grand Design

Mon May 21 14:02:23 PDT 2012

George,

Perhaps the primary way we talk about reality is to tell stories about reality.  When we forget that our stories are not reality, that they are stories about reality, our stories become illusions.  When we think our stories are reality, i.e. that our illusions are the way it really is, we get dogmatic and ideological and exclude all those who tell other stories about reality.  That's one way to define fundamentalism.  Fundamentalists, religious and otherwise, literalize and absolutize their own stories, as if they were more than stories, insist that everyone else do the same, and exclude those who will not.

So, John, maybe what George's quotes refer to as illusions that soften reality and save us from insanity are "good" illusions, and the ones that make us dogmatic and exclusive are "bad" illusions.  Not sure, just ruminating.

Randy

"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires."
-Martin Buber (adapted)

________________________________
 From: M George Walters <m.george.walters at verizon.net>
To: 'Colleague Dialogue' <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net> 
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design

Two quotes from “Unknowns” that I believe:

“Illusions are the way we maintain our sanity when reality bursts in.”

The other

“We never know reality for it is like looking on the face of God. All we know are our illusions and when they are shattered we simply replace them with new ones we invent or adopt from someone else. They are the shadows on Socrates cave”.

George

From:dialogue-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net [mailto:dialogue-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of John Cock
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 3:26 PM
To: 'Colleague Dialogue'
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design

thx, jim, for thecharles winquist, desiring theology ('95) quote. been thumbing through it. interesting. 

and i've never tried to categorize my illusions as positive or negative. that too is interesting.

john

________________________________

From:dialogue-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net [mailto:dialogue-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of James Wiegel
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 2:11 PM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design
Found this poem in the waiting area at the Episcopal Diocese office here in Arizona.  Somehow it relates to this topic.

To My Medial Prefrontal Cortex
Isabel Galbraith

People who have positive illusions are less likely to be depressed. . . . There are risks, however, in maintaining illusions that are too out of whack.  – Timothy D, Wilson

When I first heard of you, my scout,
Spinning, glossing, scrubbing out
Harsh facts about myself—the grout
            And plaque of melancholy—
I welcomed you, my little sprout 
Of green and glossy holly.

Within your songs, you troubadour, 
I'm Mark Twain, not James Fennimore,
Kristin Wig, not Drew Barrymore,
Marley, not Cheech or Chong;
I’m touchable waves, not pompadour, 
Bikini, not sarong.

But now I know you’re there I’m scared.
What buried thoughts have not been bared?
What temporary awarenesses aired
            Then were shut up in their towers?
I don’t want to be unprepared
            For life’s cold thundershowers.

So don’t puff me up to astronaut, 
Or Guinevere of Camelot, 
Or world’s best boss, Sir Michael Scott—
            The let-down’s suicidal
As Dangle and his banjo not
            Making American Idol.

And so, tonight, I try to view
Myself as all outsiders do.
I shut you off; now I’m see-through
            As a window in the dark,
And in the mirror I’m 32
            And what is soft is stark:

Dumb jokes my friends indulge me in, 
New wrinkles in my oily skin, 
The joie de vivre that I trade in
            For grouchiness at home,
Lost time that I could have spent
            Working on a poem, 

Dumb poems about the slightest things,
A pen that’s lost and long-lost flings –
They hurt, but what really stings
            Is when I add it up:
No roommates and no wedding ring,
            No money, book, or cup. . . . 

I’m definitely glad you’re there, 
Protecting me from this despair,
The bruises my ego would otherwise wear,
            Believing it deserved them.
You help me function, help me dare, 
            Steel nerves when life unnerves them.

The trouble is, we must – like flowers –
Receive the right amount of showers
And sun to pull new blooms from bowers.
            To help us be us
The inner eye’s more sweet than sour:  
Ourselves as loved ones see us

Jim Wiegel

Many have tried to define creativity, to quantify and qualify it . . .  Some say it involves imagination;  Whatever your definition of creativity or the creative process, marvelous creations abound to improve our lives and inspire us Kaneko Center

401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel
jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com

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--- On Sun, 5/20/12, John Cock <jpc2025 at triad.rr.com> wrote:

From: John Cock <jpc2025 at triad.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design
To: "'Colleague Dialogue'" <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
Date: Sunday, May 20, 2012, 1:32 PM
Rather delicious trialog, Paul. Thanks. I was delighted to hear Dawkins say
he was an agnostic, not an atheist, to the laughter of many. Whatever he is,
he has been thinking it all through seriously. Williams was definitive but
open. The moderator, a philosopher, was less open.

I watched and listened as I watched my Braves beat the Rays. That too was
delicious as our first closer came in in the 8th inning, Braves ahead 2-0,
with two Rays outs, then proceeded to hit the next two batters, loading the
bases, followed by the next batter hitting a blistering grounder that hit a
Rays runners and ended the 8th inning--and of course our closer finished off
the 9th inning as always, remarkably, leaving the Braves in first place. 

Do inform us again, Paul, when they next debate, when they hopefully get to
the heart of the matter of the evolution of the Earth community to deal with
its future, and not just depend on Darwinian evolution and Godly
intervention.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of
PSchrijnen at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:41 PM
To: dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design

I enjoyed the debate between Richard Dawkins and Rowan Williams on some of
these questions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfQk4NfW7g0

Maybe it adds another dimension...?

Paul

In a message dated 20/05/2012 19:18:12 GMT Daylight Time, LAURELCG at aol.com
writes:

    Jack,

    The Ground of Being that WAS before the big bang, and the
Evolutionary Impulse (Becoming) that started the big bang, is what we've
called God. (This I've gleaned from Andrew Cohen.) I agree it is all
intelligent, but our tiny brains cannot begin to understand it. IT is the
All, in the phrases, "All that is, is good." and "I am One with All That
Is." Science is about grappling to understand it. Good scientists are
usually in awe of what they're discovering. What else would keep someone
looking in a microscope all day every day for years, or whatever laborious
process is required in their discipline? Scientists like Bryan Swimme and
men of faith like Thomas Berry sometimes collaborate to come up with
inspired works, like The Universe Story. This is all just my humble opinion,
as is the belief that the church, the cutting edge today, is the
evolutionary spirituality movement. Jean Houston is a recognized leader of
it and almost invariably ends her internet sessions with "These are the
times, we are the people."

    From the great central valley of California, the center of the
Universe,
    Jann  

    In a message dated 5/20/2012 10:57:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
icabombay at igc.org writes:

        As to the "Grand Design", it is the contention of some that
the creative process, that which underlies all, is inherently intelligent
and that intelligence can be understood.

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