<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:tahoma, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>George,</span></div><div><span></span> </div><div><span>Perhaps the primary way we talk about reality is to tell stories about reality. When we forget that our stories are not reality, that they are stories <u>about</u> reality, our stories become illusions. When we think our stories <u>are</u> reality, i.e. that our illusions are the way it really is, we get dogmatic and ideological and exclude all those who tell other stories about reality. That's one way to define fundamentalism. Fundamentalists, religious and otherwise, literalize and absolutize their own stories, as if they were more than stories, insist that everyone else do the same, and exclude those who will
not.</span></div><div><span></span> </div><div><span>So, John, maybe what George's quotes refer to as illusions that soften reality and save us from insanity are "good" illusions, and the ones that make us dogmatic and exclusive are "bad" illusions. Not sure, just ruminating.</span></div><div><span></span> </div><div><span>Randy</span></div><div> </div><div>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires."<br>-Martin Buber (adapted)<br></div> <div style="font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <div style="margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;" class="hr" contentEditable="false"
readonly="true"></div> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> M George Walters <m.george.walters@verizon.net><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> 'Colleague Dialogue' <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, May 21, 2012 3:04 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design<br> </font> </div> <wbr>
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--></style><div><div class="yiv1989873808WordSection1"><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><span style='color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;'>Two quotes from “Unknowns” that I believe:</span></div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><span style='color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;'> </span></div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><span style='color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;'>“Illusions are the way we maintain our sanity when reality bursts in.”</span></div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><span style='color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;'> </span></div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><span style='color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;'>The other</span></div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><span style='color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "sans-serif";
font-size: 11pt;'> </span></div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><span style='color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;'>“We never know reality for it is like looking on the face of God. All we know are our illusions and when they are shattered we simply replace them with new ones we invent or adopt from someone else. They are the shadows on Socrates cave”.</span></div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><span style='color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;'> </span></div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><span style='color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;'>George</span></div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><span style='color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt;'> </span></div><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) currentColor
currentColor; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><b><span style='font-family: "sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;'>From:</span></b><span style='font-family: "sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;'> dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net [mailto:dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Cock<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 21, 2012 3:26 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Colleague Dialogue'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design</span></div></div></div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">thx, jim, for the</span><span style="color: blue;"> </span><span style="color: black;">charles winquist, <i>desiring theology</i> ('95) quote. been thumbing through it. interesting. </span></div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">and i've never tried to categorize my illusions as positive or negative. that too is
interesting.</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">john</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div style="text-align: center;" class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal" align="center"><div style="margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;" class="hr" contentEditable="false" readonly="true"></div></div><div style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><b><span style='font-family: "sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;'>From:</span></b><span style='font-family: "sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;'> <a href="mailto:dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net</a> <a href="mailto:[mailto:dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net]" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:[mailto:dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net]">[mailto:dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>James Wiegel<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 21, 2012 2:11 PM<br><b>To:</b> Colleague Dialogue<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design</span></div><table class="yiv1989873808MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellSpacing="0" cellPadding="0"><tbody><tr><td style="padding: 0in;" vAlign="top"><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Found this poem in the waiting area at the Episcopal Diocese office here in Arizona. Somehow it relates to this topic.</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">To My Medial Prefrontal Cortex</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Isabel Galbraith</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">People who have positive illusions are less likely to be depressed. . . . There are risks, however, in
maintaining illusions that are too out of whack. – Timothy D, Wilson</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">When I first heard of you, my scout,</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Spinning, glossing, scrubbing out</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Harsh facts about myself—the grout</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> And plaque of melancholy—</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">I welcomed you, my little sprout </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Of green and glossy holly.</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Within your songs, you troubadour, </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">I'm Mark Twain, not James Fennimore,</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Kristin Wig, not Drew Barrymore,</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Marley, not
Cheech or Chong;</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">I’m touchable waves, not pompadour, </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Bikini, not sarong.</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">But now I know you’re there I’m scared.</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">What buried thoughts have not been bared?</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">What temporary awarenesses aired</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> Then were shut up in their towers?</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">I don’t want to be unprepared</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> For life’s cold thundershowers.</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">So don’t puff me up to astronaut, </div><div
class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Or Guinevere of Camelot, </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Or world’s best boss, Sir Michael Scott—</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> The let-down’s suicidal</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">As Dangle and his banjo not</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> Making American Idol.</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">And so, tonight, I try to view</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Myself as all outsiders do.</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">I shut you off; now I’m see-through</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> As a window in the dark,</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">And in the mirror I’m 32</div><div
class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> And what is soft is stark:</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Dumb jokes my friends indulge me in, </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">New wrinkles in my oily skin, </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">The <i>joie de vivre</i> that I trade in</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> For grouchiness at home,</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Lost time that I could have spent</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> Working on a poem, </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Dumb poems about the slightest things,</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">A pen that’s lost and long-lost flings –</div><div
class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">They hurt, but what really stings</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> Is when I add it up:</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">No roommates and no wedding ring,</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> No money, book, or cup. . . . </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">I’m definitely glad you’re there, </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Protecting me from this despair,</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">The bruises my ego would otherwise wear,</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> Believing it deserved them.</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">You help me function, help me dare, </div><div
class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> Steel nerves when life unnerves them.</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">The trouble is, we must – like flowers –</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Receive the right amount of showers</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">And sun to pull new blooms from bowers.</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"> To help us be us</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">The inner eye’s more sweet than sour: </div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Ourselves as loved ones see us</div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><br><br>Jim Wiegel<br><br>Many have tried to define creativity, to quantify and qualify it . . . Some say it involves imagination; Whatever your definition of creativity or the creative process,
marvelous creations abound to improve our lives and inspire us Kaneko Center<br><br>401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401<br>+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel<br><a href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a> <a href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.partnersinparticipation.com</a><br><br>Upcoming public course opportunities:<br>ToP Facilitation Methods: Feb 7-8, May 15-16, Sept 11-12, 2012<br>ToP Strategic Planning: Oct 9-10, 2012<br>The Arizona ToP Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Feb 3, 2012<br>Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Aug 22-24, 2012. See website for further details. <br>AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP courses<br><br>--- On <b>Sun, 5/20/12, John Cock <i><<a href="mailto:jpc2025@triad.rr.com"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:jpc2025@triad.rr.com">jpc2025@triad.rr.com</a>></i></b> wrote:</div><div style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal"><br>From: John Cock <<a href="mailto:jpc2025@triad.rr.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:jpc2025@triad.rr.com">jpc2025@triad.rr.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design<br>To: "'Colleague Dialogue'" <<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>><br>Date: Sunday, May 20, 2012, 1:32 PM</div><div><div class="yiv1989873808MsoNormal">Rather delicious trialog, Paul. Thanks. I was delighted to hear Dawkins say<br>he was an agnostic, not an atheist, to the laughter of many. Whatever he is,<br>he has been thinking it all through seriously. Williams was definitive but<br>open. The moderator, a philosopher, was less open.<br><br>I
watched and listened as I watched my Braves beat the Rays. That too was<br>delicious as our first closer came in in the 8th inning, Braves ahead 2-0,<br>with two Rays outs, then proceeded to hit the next two batters, loading the<br>bases, followed by the next batter hitting a blistering grounder that hit a<br>Rays runners and ended the 8th inning--and of course our closer finished off<br>the 9th inning as always, remarkably, leaving the Braves in first place. <br><br>Do inform us again, Paul, when they next debate, when they hopefully get to<br>the heart of the matter of the evolution of the Earth community to deal with<br>its future, and not just depend on Darwinian evolution and Godly<br>intervention.<br><br>John<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a rel="nofollow">dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br>[mailto:<a rel="nofollow">dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>] On Behalf Of<br><a rel="nofollow">PSchrijnen@aol.com</a><br>Sent:
Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:41 PM<br>To: <a rel="nofollow">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Grand Design<br><br>I enjoyed the debate between Richard Dawkins and Rowan Williams on some of<br>these questions:<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfQk4NfW7g0" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfQk4NfW7g0</a><br><br>Maybe it adds another dimension...?<br><br>Paul<br><br><br><br><br>In a message dated 20/05/2012 19:18:12 GMT Daylight Time, <a rel="nofollow">LAURELCG@aol.com</a><br>writes:<br><br> <br> Jack,<br> <br> The Ground of Being that WAS before the big bang, and the<br>Evolutionary Impulse (Becoming) that started the big bang, is what we've<br>called God. (This I've gleaned from Andrew Cohen.) I agree it is all<br>intelligent, but our tiny brains cannot begin to understand it. IT is the<br>All, in the phrases,
"All that is, is good." and "I am One with All That<br>Is." Science is about grappling to understand it. Good scientists are<br>usually in awe of what they're discovering. What else would keep someone<br>looking in a microscope all day every day for years, or whatever laborious<br>process is required in their discipline? Scientists like Bryan Swimme and<br>men of faith like Thomas Berry sometimes collaborate to come up with<br>inspired works, like The Universe Story. This is all just my humble opinion,<br>as is the belief that the church, the cutting edge today, is the<br>evolutionary spirituality movement. Jean Houston is a recognized leader of<br>it and almost invariably ends her internet sessions with "These are the<br>times, we are the people."<br> <br> From the great central valley of California, the center of the<br>Universe,<br> Jann
<br> <br> In a message dated 5/20/2012 10:57:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,<br><a rel="nofollow">icabombay@igc.org</a> writes:<br><br> As to the "Grand Design", it is the contention of some that<br>the creative process, that which underlies all, is inherently intelligent<br>and that intelligence can be understood.<br><br><br><br> _______________________________________________<br> Dialogue mailing list<br> <a rel="nofollow">Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br> <a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net</a><br> <br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Dialogue mailing list<br><a rel="nofollow">Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br><a
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