Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Jim Why did the Order abandon the church? Spong's latest sure calls for what began lo these many years ago. Zoe Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: 2016/10/02 5:14 PM (GMT-07:00) To: Frank Knutson <f.knutson@earthlink.net>, Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>, Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT like what is an example, Frank? Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353623-363-3277jfwiegel@yahoo.comwww.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation Register on line / see the ToP National ScheduleAICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 From: Frank Knutson via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 4:06 PM Subject: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Searching through old documents I found THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD IN CENTURY TWENTY. I am amazed, at over 50 years ago, how on target it is today. It provides a lot for today’s discussions. "We can't solve our problems with the same level of thinking (or consciousness) that created them." ~Albert Einstein ❤ Frank _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Well, that is a good and interesting question, Zoe. And probably many people might have answers . . Here are a couple possible ones that come to my mind. The Fifth City Project and, later human development projects and town meetings had a lot more visceral excitement for us than the slow work of congregational renewal. This might have been more particularly true for us younger, non clergy folks who came right after you all . . . The Local Church Experiment with Galaxies and all did not produce exciting enough results to be sustained, and we never got sufficiently strong and widespread support from the denominational heirarchies to keep it going. It may well also have been the case that the "risks" that the Galaxy leadership and clergy families in the order and movement sort of derailed their career prospects in Ecclesiastical circles. God chose fundamentalism and the charismatic approach over existential theology. I was struck, travelling cross country several years ago, on 2 lane highways, that it seems as though only the conservative churches have had heart and passion to root themselves in many local places. Music and broadcast christianity as well. With our focus on "globality", staying within the framework of Historical Christianity became increasingly relative as we engaged in countries not dominantly Christian In looking at old documents, like the Declaration of the Spirit Movement, I can see one could say that the primary concern was to address the "cultural revolution of the 20th century", ("renewal of the church FOR THE SAKE OF THE WORLD") Even the contextual documents on the local church describe it as an anthropological phenomenon and not a Christian reality
From a practical (and economic) perspective, at some point, participation in RS-1 peaked and we needed something else to keep the "movement" moving. While we talked of ourselves as an "Order" -- Religious Order, Historical Order, Global Order, seems we depended a lot on keeping momentum going. Sustainability and slowness were less important than Expenditure and transformation. What is your take on it?Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353623-363-3277jfwiegel@yahoo.comwww.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation Register on line / see the ToP National ScheduleAICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003
From: zbarley <zbarley@earthlink.net> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Jim Why did the Order abandon the church? Spong's latest sure calls for what began lo these many years ago. Zoe Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: 2016/10/02 5:14 PM (GMT-07:00) To: Frank Knutson <f.knutson@earthlink.net>, Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>, Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT like what is an example, Frank? Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353623-363-3277jfwiegel@yahoo.comwww.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation Register on line / see the ToP National ScheduleAICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 From: Frank Knutson via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 4:06 PM Subject: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Searching through old documents I found THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD IN CENTURY TWENTY. I am amazed, at over 50 years ago, how on target it is today. It provides a lot for today’s discussions. "We can't solve our problems with the same level of thinking (or consciousness) that created them." ~Albert Einstein ❤ Frank _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Jim, Very good answer. I recall the extraordinary excitement of seeing Town Meetings and Community Forums be transformational. Ken On Oct 2, 2016, at 11:40 PM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Well, that is a good and interesting question, Zoe. And probably many people might have answers . . Here are a couple possible ones that come to my mind. The Fifth City Project and, later human development projects and town meetings had a lot more visceral excitement for us than the slow work of congregational renewal. This might have been more particularly true for us younger, non clergy folks who came right after you all . . . The Local Church Experiment with Galaxies and all did not produce exciting enough results to be sustained, and we never got sufficiently strong and widespread support from the denominational heirarchies to keep it going. It may well also have been the case that the "risks" that the Galaxy leadership and clergy families in the order and movement sort of derailed their career prospects in Ecclesiastical circles. God chose fundamentalism and the charismatic approach over existential theology. I was struck, travelling cross country several years ago, on 2 lane highways, that it seems as though only the conservative churches have had heart and passion to root themselves in many local places. Music and broadcast christianity as well. With our focus on "globality", staying within the framework of Historical Christianity became increasingly relative as we engaged in countries not dominantly Christian In looking at old documents, like the Declaration of the Spirit Movement, I can see one could say that the primary concern was to address the "cultural revolution of the 20th century", ("renewal of the church FOR THE SAKE OF THE WORLD") Even the contextual documents on the local church describe it as an anthropological phenomenon and not a Christian reality From a practical (and economic) perspective, at some point, participation in RS-1 peaked and we needed something else to keep the "movement" moving. While we talked of ourselves as an "Order" -- Religious Order, Historical Order, Global Order, seems we depended a lot on keeping momentum going. Sustainability and slowness were less important than Expenditure and transformation. What is your take on it? Jim Wiegel <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=123> “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com <mailto:marilyn.oyler@gmail.com> www.partnersinparticipation.com <http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/> Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10> More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=48> ToP® Strategic Planning <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=50>: Mastering the Technology of Participation <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz3mniiYCdI> Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule <http://www.top-training.net/> AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=203> meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 <https://www.google.com/maps/place/648+N+5th+Ave/@33.456329,-112.080545,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b123a5312512d:0x93c9f71171108956?hl=> From: zbarley <zbarley@earthlink.net> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Jim Why did the Order abandon the church? Spong's latest sure calls for what began lo these many years ago. Zoe Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: 2016/10/02 5:14 PM (GMT-07:00) To: Frank Knutson <f.knutson@earthlink.net>, Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>, Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT like what is an example, Frank? Jim Wiegel <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=123> “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com <mailto:marilyn.oyler@gmail.com> www.partnersinparticipation.com <http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/> Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10> More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=48> ToP® Strategic Planning <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=50>: Mastering the Technology of Participation <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz3mniiYCdI> Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule <http://www.top-training.net/> AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=203> meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 <https://www.google.com/maps/place/648+N+5th+Ave/@33.456329,-112.080545,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b123a5312512d:0x93c9f71171108956?hl=> From: Frank Knutson via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 4:06 PM Subject: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Searching through old documents I found THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD IN CENTURY TWENTY. I am amazed, at over 50 years ago, how on target it is today. It provides a lot for today’s discussions. "We can't solve our problems with the same level of thinking (or consciousness) that created them." ~Albert Einstein ❤ Frank _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net> _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
My memory holds that when we decided to work in India, and India did not want any more "Christian missionaries", the call to have a secular name and a secular task was too loud not to answer. I remember Joe Mathews talking about an "end run around the church". Karen Bueno -----Original Message----- From: Ken Fisher via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Jim & Judy Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Mon, Oct 3, 2016 7:30 am Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Jim, Very good answer. I recall the extraordinary excitement of seeing Town Meetings and Community Forums be transformational. Ken On Oct 2, 2016, at 11:40 PM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Well, that is a good and interesting question, Zoe. And probably many people might have answers . . Here are a couple possible ones that come to my mind. The Fifth City Project and, later human development projects and town meetings had a lot more visceral excitement for us than the slow work of congregational renewal. This might have been more particularly true for us younger, non clergy folks who came right after you all . . . The Local Church Experiment with Galaxies and all did not produce exciting enough results to be sustained, and we never got sufficiently strong and widespread support from the denominational heirarchies to keep it going. It may well also have been the case that the "risks" that the Galaxy leadership and clergy families in the order and movement sort of derailed their career prospects in Ecclesiastical circles. God chose fundamentalism and the charismatic approach over existential theology. I was struck, travelling cross country several years ago, on 2 lane highways, that it seems as though only the conservative churches have had heart and passion to root themselves in many local places. Music and broadcast christianity as well. With our focus on "globality", staying within the framework of Historical Christianity became increasingly relative as we engaged in countries not dominantly Christian In looking at old documents, like the Declaration of the Spirit Movement, I can see one could say that the primary concern was to address the "cultural revolution of the 20th century", ("renewal of the church FOR THE SAKE OF THE WORLD") Even the contextual documents on the local church describe it as an anthropological phenomenon and not a Christian reality
From a practical (and economic) perspective, at some point, participation in RS-1 peaked and we needed something else to keep the "movement" moving. While we talked of ourselves as an "Order" -- Religious Order, Historical Order, Global Order, seems we depended a lot on keeping momentum going. Sustainability and slowness were less important than Expenditure and transformation.
What is your take on it? Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 From: zbarley <zbarley@earthlink.net> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Jim Why did the Order abandon the church? Spong's latest sure calls for what began lo these many years ago. Zoe Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: 2016/10/02 5:14 PM (GMT-07:00) To: Frank Knutson <f.knutson@earthlink.net>, Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>, Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT like what is an example, Frank? Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 From: Frank Knutson via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 4:06 PM Subject: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Searching through old documents I found THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD IN CENTURY TWENTY. I am amazed, at over 50 years ago, how on target it is today. It provides a lot for today’s discussions. "We can't solve our problems with the same level of thinking (or consciousness) that created them." ~Albert Einstein ❤ Frank _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
When I came to intern in the autumn of 1967, The Institute of Cultural Affairs was already a division of The Ecumenical Institute. The Fifth City project came under that heading. Karen, you raise, though, an interesting point. We studied a book back in the day called Invisible Religion, by Thomas Luckmann. He went to great lengths to describe how the phenomenon of "religion" was a part of every society, a sociological reality. We encapsulated this strain of thinking later in the social process triangles where the process of "Common Symbols" (top pole of the Cultural Commonality triangle) was delineated as "Corporate Language", "Social Art" and "Common Religion" (which included the processes of "Unifying Icons", "Common Rites", and "Inclusive Myths". The insight here is that one of the realities that comes into play when we humans get together is we start creating "religion" ON THE OTHER HAND, IN OUR WORLD, we have a number of long-standing historical communities/movements also called "religions" -- Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc. It seems hard, even today, to know clearly which reality is being pointed to with the term. Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353623-363-3277jfwiegel@yahoo.comwww.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation Register on line / see the ToP National ScheduleAICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 From: Karenbueno <karenbueno@aol.com> To: kenfisher1942@gmail.com; oe@lists.wedgeblade.net; jfwiegel@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT My memory holds that when we decided to work in India, and India did not want any more "Christian missionaries", the call to have a secular name and a secular task was too loud not to answer. I remember Joe Mathews talking about an "end run around the church". Karen Bueno -----Original Message----- From: Ken Fisher via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Jim & Judy Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Mon, Oct 3, 2016 7:30 am Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Jim, Very good answer. I recall the extraordinary excitement of seeing Town Meetings and Community Forums be transformational. Ken On Oct 2, 2016, at 11:40 PM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Well, that is a good and interesting question, Zoe. And probably many people might have answers . . Here are a couple possible ones that come to my mind. The Fifth City Project and, later human development projects and town meetings had a lot more visceral excitement for us than the slow work of congregational renewal. This might have been more particularly true for us younger, non clergy folks who came right after you all . . . The Local Church Experiment with Galaxies and all did not produce exciting enough results to be sustained, and we never got sufficiently strong and widespread support from the denominational heirarchies to keep it going. It may well also have been the case that the "risks" that the Galaxy leadership and clergy families in the order and movement sort of derailed their career prospects in Ecclesiastical circles. God chose fundamentalism and the charismatic approach over existential theology. I was struck, travelling cross country several years ago, on 2 lane highways, that it seems as though only the conservative churches have had heart and passion to root themselves in many local places. Music and broadcast christianity as well. With our focus on "globality", staying within the framework of Historical Christianity became increasingly relative as we engaged in countries not dominantly Christian In looking at old documents, like the Declaration of the Spirit Movement, I can see one could say that the primary concern was to address the "cultural revolution of the 20th century", ("renewal of the church FOR THE SAKE OF THE WORLD") Even the contextual documents on the local church describe it as an anthropological phenomenon and not a Christian reality
From a practical (and economic) perspective, at some point, participation in RS-1 peaked and we needed something else to keep the "movement" moving. While we talked of ourselves as an "Order" -- Religious Order, Historical Order, Global Order, seems we depended a lot on keeping momentum going. Sustainability and slowness were less important than Expenditure and transformation. What is your take on it?Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353623-363-3277jfwiegel@yahoo.comwww.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation Register on line / see the ToP National ScheduleAICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003
From: zbarley <zbarley@earthlink.net> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Jim Why did the Order abandon the church? Spong's latest sure calls for what began lo these many years ago. Zoe Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: 2016/10/02 5:14 PM (GMT-07:00) To: Frank Knutson <f.knutson@earthlink.net>, Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>, Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT like what is an example, Frank? Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353623-363-3277jfwiegel@yahoo.comwww.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation Register on line / see the ToP National ScheduleAICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 From: Frank Knutson via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 4:06 PM Subject: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Searching through old documents I found THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD IN CENTURY TWENTY. I am amazed, at over 50 years ago, how on target it is today. It provides a lot for today’s discussions. "We can't solve our problems with the same level of thinking (or consciousness) that created them." ~Albert Einstein ❤ Frank _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au Hello folks, Thankyou so much for these recent discussions. Ken, Karen and Jim, Jack and all. . Jim Bishop and I had a chat, and we agreed with all that has been offered ( for our two cents worth,) by way of reflective comments, at this distance. I well remember ' the end run on the Church' Karen- and as it is a baseball term I guess, I had no idea what it meant, yet it still made sense to me.! I reckon that most of what happens in the Jesus Seminar- Westar Institute, and with the late Marcus Borg and many other deep thinkers, has evolved in its own way from our labours for the Church in the 50's and 60's and even 70's. Thank you to you all for your grace and care - yes indeed, we are all part of the Crimson Line, and we do miss Frank Bremner- his contributions to both the Ecumenical Institute and the ICA were invaluable. In peace and love, Isobel. On 04/10/2016, at 2:28 AM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
When I came to intern in the autumn of 1967, The Institute of Cultural Affairs was already a division of The Ecumenical Institute. The Fifth City project came under that heading.
Karen, you raise, though, an interesting point. We studied a book back in the day called Invisible Religion, by Thomas Luckmann. He went to great lengths to describe how the phenomenon of "religion" was a part of every society, a sociological reality. We encapsulated this strain of thinking later in the social process triangles where the process of "Common Symbols" (top pole of the Cultural Commonality triangle) was delineated as "Corporate Language", "Social Art" and "Common Religion" (which included the processes of "Unifying Icons", "Common Rites", and "Inclusive Myths". The insight here is that one of the realities that comes into play when we humans get together is we start creating "religion"
ON THE OTHER HAND, IN OUR WORLD, we have a number of long-standing historical communities/movements also called "religions" -- Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc.
It seems hard, even today, to know clearly which reality is being pointed to with the term.
Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona
More info on:
ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation
Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses
The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003
From: Karenbueno <karenbueno@aol.com> To: kenfisher1942@gmail.com; oe@lists.wedgeblade.net; jfwiegel@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
My memory holds that when we decided to work in India, and India did not want any more "Christian missionaries", the call to have a secular name and a secular task was too loud not to answer. I remember Joe Mathews talking about an "end run around the church".
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message----- From: Ken Fisher via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Jim & Judy Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Mon, Oct 3, 2016 7:30 am Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Jim,
Very good answer. I recall the extraordinary excitement of seeing Town Meetings and Community Forums be transformational.
Ken
On Oct 2, 2016, at 11:40 PM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Well, that is a good and interesting question, Zoe. And probably many people might have answers . .
Here are a couple possible ones that come to my mind.
The Fifth City Project and, later human development projects and town meetings had a lot more visceral excitement for us than the slow work of congregational renewal. This might have been more particularly true for us younger, non clergy folks who came right after you all . . .
The Local Church Experiment with Galaxies and all did not produce exciting enough results to be sustained, and we never got sufficiently strong and widespread support from the denominational heirarchies to keep it going. It may well also have been the case that the "risks" that the Galaxy leadership and clergy families in the order and movement sort of derailed their career prospects in Ecclesiastical circles.
God chose fundamentalism and the charismatic approach over existential theology. I was struck, travelling cross country several years ago, on 2 lane highways, that it seems as though only the conservative churches have had heart and passion to root themselves in many local places. Music and broadcast christianity as well.
With our focus on "globality", staying within the framework of Historical Christianity became increasingly relative as we engaged in countries not dominantly Christian
In looking at old documents, like the Declaration of the Spirit Movement, I can see one could say that the primary concern was to address the "cultural revolution of the 20th century", ("renewal of the church FOR THE SAKE OF THE WORLD")
Even the contextual documents on the local church describe it as an anthropological phenomenon and not a Christian reality
From a practical (and economic) perspective, at some point, participation in RS-1 peaked and we needed something else to keep the "movement" moving. While we talked of ourselves as an "Order" -- Religious Order, Historical Order, Global Order, seems we depended a lot on keeping momentum going. Sustainability and slowness were less important than Expenditure and transformation.
What is your take on it? Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona
More info on:
ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation
Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses
The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003
From: zbarley <zbarley@earthlink.net> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Jim
Why did the Order abandon the church?
Spong's latest sure calls for what began lo these many years ago.
Zoe
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: 2016/10/02 5:14 PM (GMT-07:00) To: Frank Knutson <f.knutson@earthlink.net>, Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>, Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
like what is an example, Frank?
Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona
More info on:
ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation
Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses
The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003
From: Frank Knutson via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 4:06 PM Subject: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Searching through old documents I found THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD IN CENTURY TWENTY. I am amazed, at over 50 years ago, how on target it is today. It provides a lot for today’s discussions.
"We can't solve our problems with the same level of thinking (or consciousness) that created them." ~Albert Einstein
❤ Frank
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Actually, an "end run" is a football term, used idiomatically to say we just avoid the impediments! Karen Bueno -----Original Message----- From: Isobel and Jim Bishop <isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Karenbueno <karenbueno@aol.com>; kenfisher1942 <kenfisher1942@gmail.com> Sent: Mon, Oct 3, 2016 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au Hello folks, Thankyou so much for these recent discussions. Ken, Karen and Jim, Jack and all. . Jim Bishop and I had a chat, and we agreed with all that has been offered ( for our two cents worth,) by way of reflective comments, at this distance. I well remember ' the end run on the Church' Karen- and as it is a baseball term I guess, I had no idea what it meant, yet it still made sense to me.! I reckon that most of what happens in the Jesus Seminar- Westar Institute, and with the late Marcus Borg and many other deep thinkers, has evolved in its own way from our labours for the Church in the 50's and 60's and even 70's. Thank you to you all for your grace and care - yes indeed, we are all part of the Crimson Line, and we do miss Frank Bremner- his contributions to both the Ecumenical Institute and the ICA were invaluable. In peace and love, Isobel. On 04/10/2016, at 2:28 AM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: When I came to intern in the autumn of 1967, The Institute of Cultural Affairs was already a division of The Ecumenical Institute. The Fifth City project came under that heading. Karen, you raise, though, an interesting point. We studied a book back in the day called Invisible Religion, by Thomas Luckmann. He went to great lengths to describe how the phenomenon of "religion" was a part of every society, a sociological reality. We encapsulated this strain of thinking later in the social process triangles where the process of "Common Symbols" (top pole of the Cultural Commonality triangle) was delineated as "Corporate Language", "Social Art" and "Common Religion" (which included the processes of "Unifying Icons", "Common Rites", and "Inclusive Myths". The insight here is that one of the realities that comes into play when we humans get together is we start creating "religion" ON THE OTHER HAND, IN OUR WORLD, we have a number of long-standing historical communities/movements also called "religions" -- Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc. It seems hard, even today, to know clearly which reality is being pointed to with the term. Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 From: Karenbueno <karenbueno@aol.com> To: kenfisher1942@gmail.com; oe@lists.wedgeblade.net; jfwiegel@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT My memory holds that when we decided to work in India, and India did not want any more "Christian missionaries", the call to have a secular name and a secular task was too loud not to answer. I remember Joe Mathews talking about an "end run around the church". Karen Bueno -----Original Message----- From: Ken Fisher via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Jim & Judy Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Mon, Oct 3, 2016 7:30 am Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Jim, Very good answer. I recall the extraordinary excitement of seeing Town Meetings and Community Forums be transformational. Ken On Oct 2, 2016, at 11:40 PM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Well, that is a good and interesting question, Zoe. And probably many people might have answers . . Here are a couple possible ones that come to my mind. The Fifth City Project and, later human development projects and town meetings had a lot more visceral excitement for us than the slow work of congregational renewal. This might have been more particularly true for us younger, non clergy folks who came right after you all . . . The Local Church Experiment with Galaxies and all did not produce exciting enough results to be sustained, and we never got sufficiently strong and widespread support from the denominational heirarchies to keep it going. It may well also have been the case that the "risks" that the Galaxy leadership and clergy families in the order and movement sort of derailed their career prospects in Ecclesiastical circles. God chose fundamentalism and the charismatic approach over existential theology. I was struck, travelling cross country several years ago, on 2 lane highways, that it seems as though only the conservative churches have had heart and passion to root themselves in many local places. Music and broadcast christianity as well. With our focus on "globality", staying within the framework of Historical Christianity became increasingly relative as we engaged in countries not dominantly Christian In looking at old documents, like the Declaration of the Spirit Movement, I can see one could say that the primary concern was to address the "cultural revolution of the 20th century", ("renewal of the church FOR THE SAKE OF THE WORLD") Even the contextual documents on the local church describe it as an anthropological phenomenon and not a Christian reality
From a practical (and economic) perspective, at some point, participation in RS-1 peaked and we needed something else to keep the "movement" moving. While we talked of ourselves as an "Order" -- Religious Order, Historical Order, Global Order, seems we depended a lot on keeping momentum going. Sustainability and slowness were less important than Expenditure and transformation.
What is your take on it? Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 From: zbarley <zbarley@earthlink.net> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Jim Why did the Order abandon the church? Spong's latest sure calls for what began lo these many years ago. Zoe Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: 2016/10/02 5:14 PM (GMT-07:00) To: Frank Knutson <f.knutson@earthlink.net>, Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>, Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT like what is an example, Frank? Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 From: Frank Knutson via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 4:06 PM Subject: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Searching through old documents I found THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD IN CENTURY TWENTY. I am amazed, at over 50 years ago, how on target it is today. It provides a lot for today’s discussions. "We can't solve our problems with the same level of thinking (or consciousness) that created them." ~Albert Einstein ❤ Frank _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
The idea was to ‘run around’ the historical church into the ‘parish,’ show what could be done, and beckon folk in with ‘Come on in – the water’s fine!’ And sometimes that has worked. Bill Schlesinger Project Vida 3607 Rivera Avenue El Paso, TX 79905 (915) 533-7057 ext. 207 www.pvida.net From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Karenbueno via OE Sent: Monday, October 03, 2016 4:47 PM To: isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au; jfwiegel@yahoo.com; oe@lists.wedgeblade.net Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Actually, an "end run" is a football term, used idiomatically to say we just avoid the impediments! Karen Bueno -----Original Message----- From: Isobel and Jim Bishop <isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Karenbueno <karenbueno@aol.com>; kenfisher1942 <kenfisher1942@gmail.com> Sent: Mon, Oct 3, 2016 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au Hello folks, Thankyou so much for these recent discussions. Ken, Karen and Jim, Jack and all. . Jim Bishop and I had a chat, and we agreed with all that has been offered ( for our two cents worth,) by way of reflective comments, at this distance. I well remember ' the end run on the Church' Karen- and as it is a baseball term I guess, I had no idea what it meant, yet it still made sense to me.! I reckon that most of what happens in the Jesus Seminar- Westar Institute, and with the late Marcus Borg and many other deep thinkers, has evolved in its own way from our labours for the Church in the 50's and 60's and even 70's. Thank you to you all for your grace and care - yes indeed, we are all part of the Crimson Line, and we do miss Frank Bremner- his contributions to both the Ecumenical Institute and the ICA were invaluable. In peace and love, Isobel. On 04/10/2016, at 2:28 AM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: When I came to intern in the autumn of 1967, The Institute of Cultural Affairs was already a division of The Ecumenical Institute. The Fifth City project came under that heading. Karen, you raise, though, an interesting point. We studied a book back in the day called Invisible Religion, by Thomas Luckmann. He went to great lengths to describe how the phenomenon of "religion" was a part of every society, a sociological reality. We encapsulated this strain of thinking later in the social process triangles where the process of "Common Symbols" (top pole of the Cultural Commonality triangle) was delineated as "Corporate Language", "Social Art" and "Common Religion" (which included the processes of "Unifying Icons", "Common Rites", and "Inclusive Myths". The insight here is that one of the realities that comes into play when we humans get together is we start creating "religion" ON THE OTHER HAND, IN OUR WORLD, we have a number of long-standing historical communities/movements also called "religions" -- Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc. It seems hard, even today, to know clearly which reality is being pointed to with the term. Jim Wiegel <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=123> “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com <http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/> Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10> More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=48> ToP® Strategic Planning <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=50> : Mastering the Technology of Participation <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz3mniiYCdI> Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule <http://www.top-training.net/> AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=203> meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 <https://www.google.com/maps/place/648+N+5th+Ave/@33.456329,-112.080545,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b123a5312512d:0x93c9f71171108956?hl=> _____ From: Karenbueno <karenbueno@aol.com> To: kenfisher1942@gmail.com; oe@lists.wedgeblade.net; jfwiegel@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT My memory holds that when we decided to work in India, and India did not want any more "Christian missionaries", the call to have a secular name and a secular task was too loud not to answer. I remember Joe Mathews talking about an "end run around the church". Karen Bueno -----Original Message----- From: Ken Fisher via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Jim & Judy Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Mon, Oct 3, 2016 7:30 am Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Jim, Very good answer. I recall the extraordinary excitement of seeing Town Meetings and Community Forums be transformational. Ken On Oct 2, 2016, at 11:40 PM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Well, that is a good and interesting question, Zoe. And probably many people might have answers . . Here are a couple possible ones that come to my mind. The Fifth City Project and, later human development projects and town meetings had a lot more visceral excitement for us than the slow work of congregational renewal. This might have been more particularly true for us younger, non clergy folks who came right after you all . . . The Local Church Experiment with Galaxies and all did not produce exciting enough results to be sustained, and we never got sufficiently strong and widespread support from the denominational heirarchies to keep it going. It may well also have been the case that the "risks" that the Galaxy leadership and clergy families in the order and movement sort of derailed their career prospects in Ecclesiastical circles. God chose fundamentalism and the charismatic approach over existential theology. I was struck, travelling cross country several years ago, on 2 lane highways, that it seems as though only the conservative churches have had heart and passion to root themselves in many local places. Music and broadcast christianity as well. With our focus on "globality", staying within the framework of Historical Christianity became increasingly relative as we engaged in countries not dominantly Christian In looking at old documents, like the Declaration of the Spirit Movement, I can see one could say that the primary concern was to address the "cultural revolution of the 20th century", ("renewal of the church FOR THE SAKE OF THE WORLD") Even the contextual documents on the local church describe it as an anthropological phenomenon and not a Christian reality
From a practical (and economic) perspective, at some point, participation in RS-1 peaked and we needed something else to keep the "movement" moving. While we talked of ourselves as an "Order" -- Religious Order, Historical Order, Global Order, seems we depended a lot on keeping momentum going. Sustainability and slowness were less important than Expenditure and transformation.
What is your take on it? Jim Wiegel <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=123> “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com <http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/> Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10> More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=48> ToP® Strategic Planning <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=50> : Mastering the Technology of Participation <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz3mniiYCdI> Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule <http://www.top-training.net/> AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=203> meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 <https://www.google.com/maps/place/648+N+5th+Ave/@33.456329,-112.080545,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b123a5312512d:0x93c9f71171108956?hl=> _____ From: zbarley <zbarley@earthlink.net> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Jim Why did the Order abandon the church? Spong's latest sure calls for what began lo these many years ago. Zoe Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: 2016/10/02 5:14 PM (GMT-07:00) To: Frank Knutson <f.knutson@earthlink.net>, Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>, Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT like what is an example, Frank? Jim Wiegel <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=123> “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy 401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com <http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/> Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10> More info on: ToP® Facilitation Methods <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=48> ToP® Strategic Planning <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=50> : Mastering the Technology of Participation <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz3mniiYCdI> Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule <http://www.top-training.net/> AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses The AZ ToP® Community of Practice <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=203> meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 <https://www.google.com/maps/place/648+N+5th+Ave/@33.456329,-112.080545,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b123a5312512d:0x93c9f71171108956?hl=> _____ From: Frank Knutson via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 4:06 PM Subject: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT Searching through old documents I found THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD IN CENTURY TWENTY. I am amazed, at over 50 years ago, how on target it is today. It provides a lot for today’s discussions. "We can't solve our problems with the same level of thinking (or consciousness) that created them." ~Albert Einstein ❤ Frank _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Yes indeed the Church Jim and I attend is as it is- because Jonathan and Janeen Barker served it well. Other colleagues who had taken RS1 and the PLC also were part of the team effort Thankyou Bill. Cheers, Isobel Sent from my iPhone
On 4 Oct 2016, at 1:14 pm, Bill Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> wrote:
The idea was to ‘run around’ the historical church into the ‘parish,’ show what could be done, and beckon folk in with ‘Come on in – the water’s fine!’ And sometimes that has worked.
Bill Schlesinger Project Vida 3607 Rivera Avenue El Paso, TX 79905 (915) 533-7057 ext. 207 www.pvida.net
From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Karenbueno via OE Sent: Monday, October 03, 2016 4:47 PM To: isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au; jfwiegel@yahoo.com; oe@lists.wedgeblade.net Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Actually, an "end run" is a football term, used idiomatically to say we just avoid the impediments!
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message----- From: Isobel and Jim Bishop <isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Karenbueno <karenbueno@aol.com>; kenfisher1942 <kenfisher1942@gmail.com> Sent: Mon, Oct 3, 2016 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au
Hello folks,
Thankyou so much for these recent discussions. Ken, Karen and Jim, Jack and all. .
Jim Bishop and I had a chat, and we agreed with all that has been offered ( for our two cents worth,) by way of reflective comments, at this distance. I well remember ' the end run on the Church' Karen- and as it is a baseball term I guess, I had no idea what it
meant, yet it still made sense to me.!
I reckon that most of what happens in the Jesus Seminar- Westar Institute, and with the late Marcus Borg and many other deep thinkers, has evolved in its own way from our labours for the Church in the 50's and 60's and even 70's.
Thank you to you all for your grace and care - yes indeed, we are all part of the Crimson Line, and we do miss Frank Bremner- his contributions to both the Ecumenical Institute and the ICA were invaluable.
In peace and love,
Isobel.
On 04/10/2016, at 2:28 AM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
When I came to intern in the autumn of 1967, The Institute of Cultural Affairs was already a division of The Ecumenical Institute. The Fifth City project came under that heading.
Karen, you raise, though, an interesting point. We studied a book back in the day called Invisible Religion, by Thomas Luckmann. He went to great lengths to describe how the phenomenon of "religion" was a part of every society, a sociological reality. We encapsulated this strain of thinking later in the social process triangles where the process of "Common Symbols" (top pole of the Cultural Commonality triangle) was delineated as "Corporate Language", "Social Art" and "Common Religion" (which included the processes of "Unifying Icons", "Common Rites", and "Inclusive Myths". The insight here is that one of the realities that comes into play when we humans get together is we start creating "religion"
ON THE OTHER HAND, IN OUR WORLD, we have a number of long-standing historical communities/movements also called "religions" -- Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc.
It seems hard, even today, to know clearly which reality is being pointed to with the term.
Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona
More info on:
ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation
Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses
The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003
From: Karenbueno <karenbueno@aol.com> To: kenfisher1942@gmail.com; oe@lists.wedgeblade.net; jfwiegel@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
My memory holds that when we decided to work in India, and India did not want any more "Christian missionaries", the call to have a secular name and a secular task was too loud not to answer. I remember Joe Mathews talking about an "end run around the church".
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message----- From: Ken Fisher via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Jim & Judy Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Mon, Oct 3, 2016 7:30 am Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Jim,
Very good answer. I recall the extraordinary excitement of seeing Town Meetings and Community Forums be transformational.
Ken
On Oct 2, 2016, at 11:40 PM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Well, that is a good and interesting question, Zoe. And probably many people might have answers . .
Here are a couple possible ones that come to my mind.
The Fifth City Project and, later human development projects and town meetings had a lot more visceral excitement for us than the slow work of congregational renewal. This might have been more particularly true for us younger, non clergy folks who came right after you all . . .
The Local Church Experiment with Galaxies and all did not produce exciting enough results to be sustained, and we never got sufficiently strong and widespread support from the denominational heirarchies to keep it going. It may well also have been the case that the "risks" that the Galaxy leadership and clergy families in the order and movement sort of derailed their career prospects in Ecclesiastical circles.
God chose fundamentalism and the charismatic approach over existential theology. I was struck, travelling cross country several years ago, on 2 lane highways, that it seems as though only the conservative churches have had heart and passion to root themselves in many local places. Music and broadcast christianity as well.
With our focus on "globality", staying within the framework of Historical Christianity became increasingly relative as we engaged in countries not dominantly Christian
In looking at old documents, like the Declaration of the Spirit Movement, I can see one could say that the primary concern was to address the "cultural revolution of the 20th century", ("renewal of the church FOR THE SAKE OF THE WORLD")
Even the contextual documents on the local church describe it as an anthropological phenomenon and not a Christian reality
From a practical (and economic) perspective, at some point, participation in RS-1 peaked and we needed something else to keep the "movement" moving. While we talked of ourselves as an "Order" -- Religious Order, Historical Order, Global Order, seems we depended a lot on keeping momentum going. Sustainability and slowness were less important than Expenditure and transformation.
What is your take on it? Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona
More info on:
ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation
Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses
The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003
From: zbarley <zbarley@earthlink.net> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Jim
Why did the Order abandon the church?
Spong's latest sure calls for what began lo these many years ago.
Zoe
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: 2016/10/02 5:14 PM (GMT-07:00) To: Frank Knutson <f.knutson@earthlink.net>, Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>, Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
like what is an example, Frank?
Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona
More info on:
ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation
Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses
The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003
From: Frank Knutson via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 4:06 PM Subject: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Searching through old documents I found THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD IN CENTURY TWENTY. I am amazed, at over 50 years ago, how on target it is today. It provides a lot for today’s discussions.
"We can't solve our problems with the same level of thinking (or consciousness) that created them." ~Albert Einstein
❤ Frank
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
This is an interesting thread. I’m wondering if there are any others in the discussion who who experienced the Order’s decision from the side of those involved in the LCX? Bud Tillinghast
On Oct 4, 2016, at 8:58 AM, Isobel Bishop via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Yes indeed the Church Jim and I attend is as it is- because Jonathan and Janeen Barker served it well. Other colleagues who had taken RS1 and the PLC also were part of the team effort Thankyou Bill. Cheers, Isobel
Sent from my iPhone
On 4 Oct 2016, at 1:14 pm, Bill Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net <mailto:w.schlesinger@pvida.net>> wrote:
The idea was to ‘run around’ the historical church into the ‘parish,’ show what could be done, and beckon folk in with ‘Come on in – the water’s fine!’ And sometimes that has worked.
Bill Schlesinger Project Vida 3607 Rivera Avenue El Paso, TX 79905 (915) 533-7057 ext. 207 www.pvida.net <http://www.pvida.net/>
From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net>] On Behalf Of Karenbueno via OE Sent: Monday, October 03, 2016 4:47 PM To: isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au <mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au>; jfwiegel@yahoo.com <mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Actually, an "end run" is a football term, used idiomatically to say we just avoid the impediments!
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message----- From: Isobel and Jim Bishop <isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au <mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au>> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com <mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com>>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Cc: Karenbueno <karenbueno@aol.com <mailto:karenbueno@aol.com>>; kenfisher1942 <kenfisher1942@gmail.com <mailto:kenfisher1942@gmail.com>> Sent: Mon, Oct 3, 2016 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au <mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au>
Hello folks,
Thankyou so much for these recent discussions. Ken, Karen and Jim, Jack and all. .
Jim Bishop and I had a chat, and we agreed with all that has been offered ( for our two cents worth,) by way of reflective comments, at this distance. I well remember ' the end run on the Church' Karen- and as it is a baseball term I guess, I had no idea what it
meant, yet it still made sense to me.!
I reckon that most of what happens in the Jesus Seminar- Westar Institute, and with the late Marcus Borg and many other deep thinkers, has evolved in its own way from our labours for the Church in the 50's and 60's and even 70's.
Thank you to you all for your grace and care - yes indeed, we are all part of the Crimson Line, and we do miss Frank Bremner- his contributions to both the Ecumenical Institute and the ICA were invaluable.
In peace and love,
Isobel.
On 04/10/2016, at 2:28 AM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
When I came to intern in the autumn of 1967, The Institute of Cultural Affairs was already a division of The Ecumenical Institute. The Fifth City project came under that heading.
Karen, you raise, though, an interesting point. We studied a book back in the day called Invisible Religion, by Thomas Luckmann. He went to great lengths to describe how the phenomenon of "religion" was a part of every society, a sociological reality. We encapsulated this strain of thinking later in the social process triangles where the process of "Common Symbols" (top pole of the Cultural Commonality triangle) was delineated as "Corporate Language", "Social Art" and "Common Religion" (which included the processes of "Unifying Icons", "Common Rites", and "Inclusive Myths". The insight here is that one of the realities that comes into play when we humans get together is we start creating "religion"
ON THE OTHER HAND, IN OUR WORLD, we have a number of long-standing historical communities/movements also called "religions" -- Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc.
It seems hard, even today, to know clearly which reality is being pointed to with the term.
Jim Wiegel <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=123> “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com <mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com> www.partnersinparticipation.com <http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/>
Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10>
More info on:
ToP® Facilitation Methods <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=48> ToP® Strategic Planning <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=50>: Mastering the Technology of Participation <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz3mniiYCdI>
Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule <http://www.top-training.net/> AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses
The AZ ToP® Community of Practice <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=203> meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 <https://www.google.com/maps/place/648+N+5th+Ave/@33.456329,-112.080545,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b123a5312512d:0x93c9f71171108956?hl=>
From: Karenbueno <karenbueno@aol.com <mailto:karenbueno@aol.com>> To: kenfisher1942@gmail.com <mailto:kenfisher1942@gmail.com>; oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; jfwiegel@yahoo.com <mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com> Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
My memory holds that when we decided to work in India, and India did not want any more "Christian missionaries", the call to have a secular name and a secular task was too loud not to answer. I remember Joe Mathews talking about an "end run around the church".
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message----- From: Ken Fisher via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> To: Jim & Judy Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com <mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com>>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Sent: Mon, Oct 3, 2016 7:30 am Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Jim,
Very good answer. I recall the extraordinary excitement of seeing Town Meetings and Community Forums be transformational.
Ken
On Oct 2, 2016, at 11:40 PM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Well, that is a good and interesting question, Zoe. And probably many people might have answers . .
Here are a couple possible ones that come to my mind.
The Fifth City Project and, later human development projects and town meetings had a lot more visceral excitement for us than the slow work of congregational renewal. This might have been more particularly true for us younger, non clergy folks who came right after you all . . .
The Local Church Experiment with Galaxies and all did not produce exciting enough results to be sustained, and we never got sufficiently strong and widespread support from the denominational heirarchies to keep it going. It may well also have been the case that the "risks" that the Galaxy leadership and clergy families in the order and movement sort of derailed their career prospects in Ecclesiastical circles.
God chose fundamentalism and the charismatic approach over existential theology. I was struck, travelling cross country several years ago, on 2 lane highways, that it seems as though only the conservative churches have had heart and passion to root themselves in many local places. Music and broadcast christianity as well.
With our focus on "globality", staying within the framework of Historical Christianity became increasingly relative as we engaged in countries not dominantly Christian
In looking at old documents, like the Declaration of the Spirit Movement, I can see one could say that the primary concern was to address the "cultural revolution of the 20th century", ("renewal of the church FOR THE SAKE OF THE WORLD")
Even the contextual documents on the local church describe it as an anthropological phenomenon and not a Christian reality
From a practical (and economic) perspective, at some point, participation in RS-1 peaked and we needed something else to keep the "movement" moving. While we talked of ourselves as an "Order" -- Religious Order, Historical Order, Global Order, seems we depended a lot on keeping momentum going. Sustainability and slowness were less important than Expenditure and transformation.
What is your take on it? Jim Wiegel <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=123> “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com <mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com> www.partnersinparticipation.com <http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/>
Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10>
More info on:
ToP® Facilitation Methods <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=48> ToP® Strategic Planning <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=50>: Mastering the Technology of Participation <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz3mniiYCdI>
Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule <http://www.top-training.net/> AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses
The AZ ToP® Community of Practice <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=203> meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 <https://www.google.com/maps/place/648+N+5th+Ave/@33.456329,-112.080545,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b123a5312512d:0x93c9f71171108956?hl=>
From: zbarley <zbarley@earthlink.net <mailto:zbarley@earthlink.net>> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com <mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com>>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Jim
Why did the Order abandon the church?
Spong's latest sure calls for what began lo these many years ago.
Zoe
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Date: 2016/10/02 5:14 PM (GMT-07:00) To: Frank Knutson <f.knutson@earthlink.net <mailto:f.knutson@earthlink.net>>, Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>>, Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
like what is an example, Frank?
Jim Wiegel <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=123> “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com <mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com> www.partnersinparticipation.com <http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/>
Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10>
More info on:
ToP® Facilitation Methods <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=48> ToP® Strategic Planning <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=50>: Mastering the Technology of Participation <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz3mniiYCdI>
Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule <http://www.top-training.net/> AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses
The AZ ToP® Community of Practice <http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=203> meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003 <https://www.google.com/maps/place/648+N+5th+Ave/@33.456329,-112.080545,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b123a5312512d:0x93c9f71171108956?hl=>
From: Frank Knutson via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> To: Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 4:06 PM Subject: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Searching through old documents I found THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD IN CENTURY TWENTY. I am amazed, at over 50 years ago, how on target it is today. It provides a lot for today’s discussions.
"We can't solve our problems with the same level of thinking (or consciousness) that created them." ~Albert Einstein
❤ Frank
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net>
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net>
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net>
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net>
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au Thanks Karen, That explains so much! Take good care, xx Isobel. On 04/10/2016, at 9:46 AM, Karenbueno <karenbueno@aol.com> wrote:
Actually, an "end run" is a football term, used idiomatically to say we just avoid the impediments!
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message----- From: Isobel and Jim Bishop <isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Karenbueno <karenbueno@aol.com>; kenfisher1942 <kenfisher1942@gmail.com> Sent: Mon, Oct 3, 2016 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Isobel and Jim Bishop isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au
Hello folks,
Thankyou so much for these recent discussions. Ken, Karen and Jim, Jack and all. .
Jim Bishop and I had a chat, and we agreed with all that has been offered ( for our two cents worth,) by way of reflective comments, at this distance. I well remember ' the end run on the Church' Karen- and as it is a baseball term I guess, I had no idea what it
meant, yet it still made sense to me.!
I reckon that most of what happens in the Jesus Seminar- Westar Institute, and with the late Marcus Borg and many other deep thinkers, has evolved in its own way from our labours for the Church in the 50's and 60's and even 70's.
Thank you to you all for your grace and care - yes indeed, we are all part of the Crimson Line, and we do miss Frank Bremner- his contributions to both the Ecumenical Institute and the ICA were invaluable.
In peace and love,
Isobel.
On 04/10/2016, at 2:28 AM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
When I came to intern in the autumn of 1967, The Institute of Cultural Affairs was already a division of The Ecumenical Institute. The Fifth City project came under that heading.
Karen, you raise, though, an interesting point. We studied a book back in the day called Invisible Religion, by Thomas Luckmann. He went to great lengths to describe how the phenomenon of "religion" was a part of every society, a sociological reality. We encapsulated this strain of thinking later in the social process triangles where the process of "Common Symbols" (top pole of the Cultural Commonality triangle) was delineated as "Corporate Language", "Social Art" and "Common Religion" (which included the processes of "Unifying Icons", "Common Rites", and "Inclusive Myths". The insight here is that one of the realities that comes into play when we humans get together is we start creating "religion"
ON THE OTHER HAND, IN OUR WORLD, we have a number of long-standing historical communities/movements also called "religions" -- Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc.
It seems hard, even today, to know clearly which reality is being pointed to with the term.
Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona
More info on:
ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation
Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses
The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003
From: Karenbueno <karenbueno@aol.com> To: kenfisher1942@gmail.com; oe@lists.wedgeblade.net; jfwiegel@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
My memory holds that when we decided to work in India, and India did not want any more "Christian missionaries", the call to have a secular name and a secular task was too loud not to answer. I remember Joe Mathews talking about an "end run around the church".
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message----- From: Ken Fisher via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Jim & Judy Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Mon, Oct 3, 2016 7:30 am Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Jim,
Very good answer. I recall the extraordinary excitement of seeing Town Meetings and Community Forums be transformational.
Ken
On Oct 2, 2016, at 11:40 PM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Well, that is a good and interesting question, Zoe. And probably many people might have answers . .
Here are a couple possible ones that come to my mind.
The Fifth City Project and, later human development projects and town meetings had a lot more visceral excitement for us than the slow work of congregational renewal. This might have been more particularly true for us younger, non clergy folks who came right after you all . . .
The Local Church Experiment with Galaxies and all did not produce exciting enough results to be sustained, and we never got sufficiently strong and widespread support from the denominational heirarchies to keep it going. It may well also have been the case that the "risks" that the Galaxy leadership and clergy families in the order and movement sort of derailed their career prospects in Ecclesiastical circles.
God chose fundamentalism and the charismatic approach over existential theology. I was struck, travelling cross country several years ago, on 2 lane highways, that it seems as though only the conservative churches have had heart and passion to root themselves in many local places. Music and broadcast christianity as well.
With our focus on "globality", staying within the framework of Historical Christianity became increasingly relative as we engaged in countries not dominantly Christian
In looking at old documents, like the Declaration of the Spirit Movement, I can see one could say that the primary concern was to address the "cultural revolution of the 20th century", ("renewal of the church FOR THE SAKE OF THE WORLD")
Even the contextual documents on the local church describe it as an anthropological phenomenon and not a Christian reality
From a practical (and economic) perspective, at some point, participation in RS-1 peaked and we needed something else to keep the "movement" moving. While we talked of ourselves as an "Order" -- Religious Order, Historical Order, Global Order, seems we depended a lot on keeping momentum going. Sustainability and slowness were less important than Expenditure and transformation.
What is your take on it? Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona
More info on:
ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation
Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses
The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003
From: zbarley <zbarley@earthlink.net> To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Jim
Why did the Order abandon the church?
Spong's latest sure calls for what began lo these many years ago.
Zoe
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: 2016/10/02 5:14 PM (GMT-07:00) To: Frank Knutson <f.knutson@earthlink.net>, Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>, Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
like what is an example, Frank?
Jim Wiegel “If you want an adventure . . . what a time to be alive!”. Joanna Macy
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
Upcoming ToP training opportunities in Arizona
More info on:
ToP® Facilitation Methods ToP® Strategic Planning: Mastering the Technology of Participation
Register on line / see the ToP National Schedule AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP® courses
The AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, of every month, 1-4 pm, at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003
From: Frank Knutson via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Order Ecumenical ICA-USA <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 4:06 PM Subject: [Oe List ...] THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT
Searching through old documents I found THE DECLARATION OF THE SPIRIT MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD IN CENTURY TWENTY. I am amazed, at over 50 years ago, how on target it is today. It provides a lot for today’s discussions.
"We can't solve our problems with the same level of thinking (or consciousness) that created them." ~Albert Einstein
❤ Frank
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
participants (8)
-
Bill Schlesinger via OE -
H. A. Tillinghast via OE
-
Isobel and Jim Bishop via OE
-
Isobel Bishop via OE
-
James Wiegel via OE
-
Karenbueno via OE
-
Ken Fisher via OE
-
zbarley via OE