more on that Bonhoeffer movie
I still haven't seen the movie, but a few of us have. Here's my response to a private email from one colleague:Marshall D**, I'm guessing from your description that the screenplay was not the result of any in-depth study of Bonhoeffer's life or his theology. I bet the screenwriter didn't even bother to read Eberhard Bethge's biography.What I think he did is to create a cartoon Bonhoeffer character by superimposing the skeletal outline of Bonhoeffer's life onto a thriller movie framework.Leaving out the nuances and agonizing complexities of Bonhoeffer's ethical dilemmas as a pacifist.I'm not shocked that this cartoon version of Bonhoeffer has him wishing to "tear down the institutional church." I think the real Bonhoeffer's life was more profoundly nuanced than that kind of statement. His Life Together and The Cost of Discipleship were written while he supervised the underground seminary at Finkenwalde for students who were preparing to serve the dissenting Confessing Church that opposed the official German Church coalition that embraced Hitler. His focus on a "religionless Christianity" is a rejection of the 'smells and bells' and medieval belief system Luther inherited from Catholicism in favor of a radical immersion in the secular life of the world.And also a radical following of Jesus rather than middle class cultural norms.Something like the monastic life of seminary students at Finkenwalde. Or maybe the O:E. Although Bonhoeffer never abandoned his upper-class entitlement to a rich, privileged life. I believe that the real Dietrich was in love with his young student Eberhard, who was the beneficiary of his will. Dietrich reluctantly became engaged to marry the much younger Maria Von Wedemeyer only after her grandmother relentlessly pushed her on him and only after Eberhard got engaged to Dietrich's niece Renate.I don't get the sense that he was ever hot to make love with Maria. Perhaps their experience of 'true love' was always from an emotional distance, especially after Dietrich's arrest just three months after their announcement. There were letters and supervised visits. That's all.After both became engaged, Dietrich wrote to Eberhard, imagining that Now, we can resume our partnership, and we can travel together in those places where we found so much joy, and we can leave our wives back in Germany, in Berlin, or some place. In other words, they both acquired beards, and Dietrich longed to renew and pursue their spiritual friendship as 'soul mates' or whatever they decided to call it. But Eberhard was never willing to venture below the belt (as far as we can tell).I'm not at all sure that Dietrich was ever willing to go there, much as he may have longed to do just that. He wrote in prison that he would die a virgin.But since Eberhard's whole life was about Dietrich--especially as his martyred mentor and forever lost lover--how hard is it to understand the depth of his love in return?At least that's my version of Bonhoeffer. Now I'll have to see the damn movie!Marshall Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay-- Deal With It Links in the message (1) | | | One More Post on the “Gay” Bonhoeffer | | | | Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay--... |
Thank you for reading my email. And even more for responding in your standard thoughtful manner. I don't know that you have to go to the movie, I anticipate you will find what you have already described--which rings true mostly to my experience. I am glad to know that Angel Productions has the slant you described. I like to know when the propaganda targets me. Peace Don 828-292-9696 On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 4:31 PM W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I still haven't seen the movie, but a few of us have. Here's my response to a private email from one colleague: Marshall
D**, I'm guessing from your description that the screenplay was not the result of any in-depth study of Bonhoeffer's life or his theology. I bet the screenwriter didn't even bother to read Eberhard Bethge's biography. What I think he did is to create a cartoon Bonhoeffer character by superimposing the skeletal outline of Bonhoeffer's life onto a thriller movie framework. Leaving out the nuances and agonizing complexities of Bonhoeffer's ethical dilemmas as a pacifist. I'm not shocked that this cartoon version of Bonhoeffer has him wishing to "tear down the institutional church." I think the real Bonhoeffer's life was more profoundly nuanced than that kind of statement. His *Life Together* and *The Cost of Discipleship* were written while he supervised the underground seminary at Finkenwalde for students who were preparing to serve the dissenting Confessing Church that opposed the official German Church coalition that embraced Hitler. His focus on a "religionless Christianity" is a rejection of the 'smells and bells' and medieval belief system Luther inherited from Catholicism in favor of a radical immersion in the secular life of the world. And also a radical following of Jesus rather than middle class cultural norms. Something like the monastic life of seminary students at Finkenwalde. Or maybe the O:E. Although Bonhoeffer never abandoned his upper-class entitlement to a rich, privileged life. I believe that the real Dietrich was in love with his young student Eberhard <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/>, who was the beneficiary of his will. Dietrich reluctantly became engaged to marry the much younger Maria Von Wedemeyer only after her grandmother relentlessly pushed her on him and only after Eberhard got engaged to Dietrich's niece Renate. I don't get the sense that he was ever hot to make love with Maria. Perhaps their experience of 'true love' was always from an emotional distance, especially after Dietrich's arrest just three months after their announcement. There were letters and supervised visits. That's all. After both became engaged, Dietrich wrote to Eberhard, imagining that
*Now, we can resume our partnership, and we can travel together in those places where we found so much joy, and we can leave our wives back in Germany, in Berlin, or some place.*
In other words, they both acquired beards, and Dietrich longed to renew and pursue their spiritual friendship as 'soul mates' or whatever they decided to call it. But Eberhard was never willing to venture below the belt (as far as we can tell). I'm not at all sure that Dietrich was ever willing to go there, much as he may have longed to do just that. He wrote in prison that he would die a virgin. But since Eberhard's *whole life* was about Dietrich--especially as his martyred mentor and forever lost lover--how *hard* is it to understand the depth of his love in return? At least that's *my* version of Bonhoeffer. Now I'll have to see the damn movie! Marshall
Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay-- Deal With It <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/> Links in the message (1) One More Post on the “Gay” Bonhoeffer <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/> Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay--... <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/>
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NOTE: I replied to the wrong email-the above was intended for one person only. 828-292-9696 On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 5:02 PM Don Bushman <onedonbushman@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for reading my email. And even more for responding in your standard thoughtful manner. I don't know that you have to go to the movie, I anticipate you will find what you have already described--which rings true mostly to my experience.
I am glad to know that Angel Productions has the slant you described. I like to know when the propaganda targets me.
Peace Don
828-292-9696
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 4:31 PM W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I still haven't seen the movie, but a few of us have. Here's my response to a private email from one colleague: Marshall
D**, I'm guessing from your description that the screenplay was not the result of any in-depth study of Bonhoeffer's life or his theology. I bet the screenwriter didn't even bother to read Eberhard Bethge's biography. What I think he did is to create a cartoon Bonhoeffer character by superimposing the skeletal outline of Bonhoeffer's life onto a thriller movie framework. Leaving out the nuances and agonizing complexities of Bonhoeffer's ethical dilemmas as a pacifist. I'm not shocked that this cartoon version of Bonhoeffer has him wishing to "tear down the institutional church." I think the real Bonhoeffer's life was more profoundly nuanced than that kind of statement. His *Life Together* and *The Cost of Discipleship* were written while he supervised the underground seminary at Finkenwalde for students who were preparing to serve the dissenting Confessing Church that opposed the official German Church coalition that embraced Hitler. His focus on a "religionless Christianity" is a rejection of the 'smells and bells' and medieval belief system Luther inherited from Catholicism in favor of a radical immersion in the secular life of the world. And also a radical following of Jesus rather than middle class cultural norms. Something like the monastic life of seminary students at Finkenwalde. Or maybe the O:E. Although Bonhoeffer never abandoned his upper-class entitlement to a rich, privileged life. I believe that the real Dietrich was in love with his young student Eberhard <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/>, who was the beneficiary of his will. Dietrich reluctantly became engaged to marry the much younger Maria Von Wedemeyer only after her grandmother relentlessly pushed her on him and only after Eberhard got engaged to Dietrich's niece Renate. I don't get the sense that he was ever hot to make love with Maria. Perhaps their experience of 'true love' was always from an emotional distance, especially after Dietrich's arrest just three months after their announcement. There were letters and supervised visits. That's all. After both became engaged, Dietrich wrote to Eberhard, imagining that
*Now, we can resume our partnership, and we can travel together in those places where we found so much joy, and we can leave our wives back in Germany, in Berlin, or some place.*
In other words, they both acquired beards, and Dietrich longed to renew and pursue their spiritual friendship as 'soul mates' or whatever they decided to call it. But Eberhard was never willing to venture below the belt (as far as we can tell). I'm not at all sure that Dietrich was ever willing to go there, much as he may have longed to do just that. He wrote in prison that he would die a virgin. But since Eberhard's *whole life* was about Dietrich--especially as his martyred mentor and forever lost lover--how *hard* is it to understand the depth of his love in return? At least that's *my* version of Bonhoeffer. Now I'll have to see the damn movie! Marshall
Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay-- Deal With It <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/> Links in the message (1) One More Post on the “Gay” Bonhoeffer <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/> Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay--... <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/>
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Hey, Don, you can talk to the whole community- your thoughts are great Dick On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 6:09 PM Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
NOTE: I replied to the wrong email-the above was intended for one person only.
828-292-9696
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 5:02 PM Don Bushman <onedonbushman@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for reading my email. And even more for responding in your standard thoughtful manner. I don't know that you have to go to the movie, I anticipate you will find what you have already described--which rings true mostly to my experience.
I am glad to know that Angel Productions has the slant you described. I like to know when the propaganda targets me.
Peace Don
828-292-9696
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 4:31 PM W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I still haven't seen the movie, but a few of us have. Here's my response to a private email from one colleague: Marshall
D**, I'm guessing from your description that the screenplay was not the result of any in-depth study of Bonhoeffer's life or his theology. I bet the screenwriter didn't even bother to read Eberhard Bethge's biography. What I think he did is to create a cartoon Bonhoeffer character by superimposing the skeletal outline of Bonhoeffer's life onto a thriller movie framework. Leaving out the nuances and agonizing complexities of Bonhoeffer's ethical dilemmas as a pacifist. I'm not shocked that this cartoon version of Bonhoeffer has him wishing to "tear down the institutional church." I think the real Bonhoeffer's life was more profoundly nuanced than that kind of statement. His *Life Together* and *The Cost of Discipleship* were written while he supervised the underground seminary at Finkenwalde for students who were preparing to serve the dissenting Confessing Church that opposed the official German Church coalition that embraced Hitler. His focus on a "religionless Christianity" is a rejection of the 'smells and bells' and medieval belief system Luther inherited from Catholicism in favor of a radical immersion in the secular life of the world. And also a radical following of Jesus rather than middle class cultural norms. Something like the monastic life of seminary students at Finkenwalde. Or maybe the O:E. Although Bonhoeffer never abandoned his upper-class entitlement to a rich, privileged life. I believe that the real Dietrich was in love with his young student Eberhard <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/>, who was the beneficiary of his will. Dietrich reluctantly became engaged to marry the much younger Maria Von Wedemeyer only after her grandmother relentlessly pushed her on him and only after Eberhard got engaged to Dietrich's niece Renate. I don't get the sense that he was ever hot to make love with Maria. Perhaps their experience of 'true love' was always from an emotional distance, especially after Dietrich's arrest just three months after their announcement. There were letters and supervised visits. That's all. After both became engaged, Dietrich wrote to Eberhard, imagining that
*Now, we can resume our partnership, and we can travel together in those places where we found so much joy, and we can leave our wives back in Germany, in Berlin, or some place.*
In other words, they both acquired beards, and Dietrich longed to renew and pursue their spiritual friendship as 'soul mates' or whatever they decided to call it. But Eberhard was never willing to venture below the belt (as far as we can tell). I'm not at all sure that Dietrich was ever willing to go there, much as he may have longed to do just that. He wrote in prison that he would die a virgin. But since Eberhard's *whole life* was about Dietrich--especially as his martyred mentor and forever lost lover--how *hard* is it to understand the depth of his love in return? At least that's *my* version of Bonhoeffer. Now I'll have to see the damn movie! Marshall
Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay-- Deal With It <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/> Links in the message (1) One More Post on the “Gay” Bonhoeffer <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/> Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay--... <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/>
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-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund The Last Chapter United Methodist Net Zero T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor?
Thanks for the encouragement, Dick-in some ways I feel closer to our community members than people I know well, even if I can't recall their faces. 828-292-9696 On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 5:44 PM Richard Alton via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Hey, Don, you can talk to the whole community- your thoughts are great Dick
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 6:09 PM Don Bushman via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
NOTE: I replied to the wrong email-the above was intended for one person only.
828-292-9696
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 5:02 PM Don Bushman <onedonbushman@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for reading my email. And even more for responding in your standard thoughtful manner. I don't know that you have to go to the movie, I anticipate you will find what you have already described--which rings true mostly to my experience.
I am glad to know that Angel Productions has the slant you described. I like to know when the propaganda targets me.
Peace Don
828-292-9696
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 4:31 PM W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I still haven't seen the movie, but a few of us have. Here's my response to a private email from one colleague: Marshall
D**, I'm guessing from your description that the screenplay was not the result of any in-depth study of Bonhoeffer's life or his theology. I bet the screenwriter didn't even bother to read Eberhard Bethge's biography. What I think he did is to create a cartoon Bonhoeffer character by superimposing the skeletal outline of Bonhoeffer's life onto a thriller movie framework. Leaving out the nuances and agonizing complexities of Bonhoeffer's ethical dilemmas as a pacifist. I'm not shocked that this cartoon version of Bonhoeffer has him wishing to "tear down the institutional church." I think the real Bonhoeffer's life was more profoundly nuanced than that kind of statement. His *Life Together* and *The Cost of Discipleship* were written while he supervised the underground seminary at Finkenwalde for students who were preparing to serve the dissenting Confessing Church that opposed the official German Church coalition that embraced Hitler. His focus on a "religionless Christianity" is a rejection of the 'smells and bells' and medieval belief system Luther inherited from Catholicism in favor of a radical immersion in the secular life of the world. And also a radical following of Jesus rather than middle class cultural norms. Something like the monastic life of seminary students at Finkenwalde. Or maybe the O:E. Although Bonhoeffer never abandoned his upper-class entitlement to a rich, privileged life. I believe that the real Dietrich was in love with his young student Eberhard <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/>, who was the beneficiary of his will. Dietrich reluctantly became engaged to marry the much younger Maria Von Wedemeyer only after her grandmother relentlessly pushed her on him and only after Eberhard got engaged to Dietrich's niece Renate. I don't get the sense that he was ever hot to make love with Maria. Perhaps their experience of 'true love' was always from an emotional distance, especially after Dietrich's arrest just three months after their announcement. There were letters and supervised visits. That's all. After both became engaged, Dietrich wrote to Eberhard, imagining that
*Now, we can resume our partnership, and we can travel together in those places where we found so much joy, and we can leave our wives back in Germany, in Berlin, or some place.*
In other words, they both acquired beards, and Dietrich longed to renew and pursue their spiritual friendship as 'soul mates' or whatever they decided to call it. But Eberhard was never willing to venture below the belt (as far as we can tell). I'm not at all sure that Dietrich was ever willing to go there, much as he may have longed to do just that. He wrote in prison that he would die a virgin. But since Eberhard's *whole life* was about Dietrich--especially as his martyred mentor and forever lost lover--how *hard* is it to understand the depth of his love in return? At least that's *my* version of Bonhoeffer. Now I'll have to see the damn movie! Marshall
Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay-- Deal With It <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/> Links in the message (1) One More Post on the “Gay” Bonhoeffer <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/> Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay--... <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/>
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-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund The Last Chapter United Methodist Net Zero T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor? _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Dear Don, I remember your face well but am shocked you have lost mine! Dick On Sat, Nov 23, 2024 at 1:27 AM Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Thanks for the encouragement, Dick-in some ways I feel closer to our community members than people I know well, even if I can't recall their faces.
828-292-9696
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 5:44 PM Richard Alton via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Hey, Don, you can talk to the whole community- your thoughts are great Dick
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 6:09 PM Don Bushman via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
NOTE: I replied to the wrong email-the above was intended for one person only.
828-292-9696
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 5:02 PM Don Bushman <onedonbushman@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for reading my email. And even more for responding in your standard thoughtful manner. I don't know that you have to go to the movie, I anticipate you will find what you have already described--which rings true mostly to my experience.
I am glad to know that Angel Productions has the slant you described. I like to know when the propaganda targets me.
Peace Don
828-292-9696
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 4:31 PM W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I still haven't seen the movie, but a few of us have. Here's my response to a private email from one colleague: Marshall
D**, I'm guessing from your description that the screenplay was not the result of any in-depth study of Bonhoeffer's life or his theology. I bet the screenwriter didn't even bother to read Eberhard Bethge's biography. What I think he did is to create a cartoon Bonhoeffer character by superimposing the skeletal outline of Bonhoeffer's life onto a thriller movie framework. Leaving out the nuances and agonizing complexities of Bonhoeffer's ethical dilemmas as a pacifist. I'm not shocked that this cartoon version of Bonhoeffer has him wishing to "tear down the institutional church." I think the real Bonhoeffer's life was more profoundly nuanced than that kind of statement. His *Life Together* and *The Cost of Discipleship* were written while he supervised the underground seminary at Finkenwalde for students who were preparing to serve the dissenting Confessing Church that opposed the official German Church coalition that embraced Hitler. His focus on a "religionless Christianity" is a rejection of the 'smells and bells' and medieval belief system Luther inherited from Catholicism in favor of a radical immersion in the secular life of the world. And also a radical following of Jesus rather than middle class cultural norms. Something like the monastic life of seminary students at Finkenwalde. Or maybe the O:E. Although Bonhoeffer never abandoned his upper-class entitlement to a rich, privileged life. I believe that the real Dietrich was in love with his young student Eberhard <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/>, who was the beneficiary of his will. Dietrich reluctantly became engaged to marry the much younger Maria Von Wedemeyer only after her grandmother relentlessly pushed her on him and only after Eberhard got engaged to Dietrich's niece Renate. I don't get the sense that he was ever hot to make love with Maria. Perhaps their experience of 'true love' was always from an emotional distance, especially after Dietrich's arrest just three months after their announcement. There were letters and supervised visits. That's all. After both became engaged, Dietrich wrote to Eberhard, imagining that
*Now, we can resume our partnership, and we can travel together in those places where we found so much joy, and we can leave our wives back in Germany, in Berlin, or some place.*
In other words, they both acquired beards, and Dietrich longed to renew and pursue their spiritual friendship as 'soul mates' or whatever they decided to call it. But Eberhard was never willing to venture below the belt (as far as we can tell). I'm not at all sure that Dietrich was ever willing to go there, much as he may have longed to do just that. He wrote in prison that he would die a virgin. But since Eberhard's *whole life* was about Dietrich--especially as his martyred mentor and forever lost lover--how *hard* is it to understand the depth of his love in return? At least that's *my* version of Bonhoeffer. Now I'll have to see the damn movie! Marshall
Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay-- Deal With It <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/> Links in the message (1) One More Post on the “Gay” Bonhoeffer <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/> Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay--... <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/>
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-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund The Last Chapter United Methodist Net Zero T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor? _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
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-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund The Last Chapter United Methodist Net Zero T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor?
Marshal. go see the money and lead an ORID conversation with your community.. will surprise you. Dick On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 5:31 PM W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I still haven't seen the movie, but a few of us have. Here's my response to a private email from one colleague: Marshall
D**, I'm guessing from your description that the screenplay was not the result of any in-depth study of Bonhoeffer's life or his theology. I bet the screenwriter didn't even bother to read Eberhard Bethge's biography. What I think he did is to create a cartoon Bonhoeffer character by superimposing the skeletal outline of Bonhoeffer's life onto a thriller movie framework. Leaving out the nuances and agonizing complexities of Bonhoeffer's ethical dilemmas as a pacifist. I'm not shocked that this cartoon version of Bonhoeffer has him wishing to "tear down the institutional church." I think the real Bonhoeffer's life was more profoundly nuanced than that kind of statement. His *Life Together* and *The Cost of Discipleship* were written while he supervised the underground seminary at Finkenwalde for students who were preparing to serve the dissenting Confessing Church that opposed the official German Church coalition that embraced Hitler. His focus on a "religionless Christianity" is a rejection of the 'smells and bells' and medieval belief system Luther inherited from Catholicism in favor of a radical immersion in the secular life of the world. And also a radical following of Jesus rather than middle class cultural norms. Something like the monastic life of seminary students at Finkenwalde. Or maybe the O:E. Although Bonhoeffer never abandoned his upper-class entitlement to a rich, privileged life. I believe that the real Dietrich was in love with his young student Eberhard <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/>, who was the beneficiary of his will. Dietrich reluctantly became engaged to marry the much younger Maria Von Wedemeyer only after her grandmother relentlessly pushed her on him and only after Eberhard got engaged to Dietrich's niece Renate. I don't get the sense that he was ever hot to make love with Maria. Perhaps their experience of 'true love' was always from an emotional distance, especially after Dietrich's arrest just three months after their announcement. There were letters and supervised visits. That's all. After both became engaged, Dietrich wrote to Eberhard, imagining that
*Now, we can resume our partnership, and we can travel together in those places where we found so much joy, and we can leave our wives back in Germany, in Berlin, or some place.*
In other words, they both acquired beards, and Dietrich longed to renew and pursue their spiritual friendship as 'soul mates' or whatever they decided to call it. But Eberhard was never willing to venture below the belt (as far as we can tell). I'm not at all sure that Dietrich was ever willing to go there, much as he may have longed to do just that. He wrote in prison that he would die a virgin. But since Eberhard's *whole life* was about Dietrich--especially as his martyred mentor and forever lost lover--how *hard* is it to understand the depth of his love in return? At least that's *my* version of Bonhoeffer. Now I'll have to see the damn movie! Marshall
Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay-- Deal With It <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/> Links in the message (1) One More Post on the “Gay” Bonhoeffer <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/> Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay--... <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/>
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-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund The Last Chapter United Methodist Net Zero T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor?
Dick, you. wrote, "go see the money..."OK, so show me the money!Seriously, I probably will catch the flick eventually. And I certainly want to.But I'm going for my fifth eye surgery on Monday, so I won't be seeing too well in the immediate future.Bonhoeffer will just have to wait on my bucket list.So far I'm just reporting that all of the world's Bonhoeffer scholars are up in arms about this flick, including 'emeritus' Professor John De Gruchy of South Africa (whom I do not know personally, though we have in common a collegial relationship with another 'emeritus' professor of ethics), who is a leader of the International Bonhoeffer Society: English Language Section, and a translator and editor of several Bonhoeffer books in English, including Letters and Papers from Prison.There's gotta be a reason why there's so much smoke here. Maybe an international firestorm!So Dick, why not write your own review of the film?Marshall On Friday, November 22, 2024 at 07:47:49 PM EST, Richard Alton via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Marshal. go see the money and lead an ORID conversation with your community.. will surprise you.Dick On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 5:31 PM W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: I still haven't seen the movie, but a few of us have. Here's my response to a private email from one colleague:Marshall D**, I'm guessing from your description that the screenplay was not the result of any in-depth study of Bonhoeffer's life or his theology. I bet the screenwriter didn't even bother to read Eberhard Bethge's biography.What I think he did is to create a cartoon Bonhoeffer character by superimposing the skeletal outline of Bonhoeffer's life onto a thriller movie framework.Leaving out the nuances and agonizing complexities of Bonhoeffer's ethical dilemmas as a pacifist.I'm not shocked that this cartoon version of Bonhoeffer has him wishing to "tear down the institutional church." I think the real Bonhoeffer's life was more profoundly nuanced than that kind of statement. His Life Together and The Cost of Discipleship were written while he supervised the underground seminary at Finkenwalde for students who were preparing to serve the dissenting Confessing Church that opposed the official German Church coalition that embraced Hitler. His focus on a "religionless Christianity" is a rejection of the 'smells and bells' and medieval belief system Luther inherited from Catholicism in favor of a radical immersion in the secular life of the world.And also a radical following of Jesus rather than middle class cultural norms.Something like the monastic life of seminary students at Finkenwalde. Or maybe the O:E. Although Bonhoeffer never abandoned his upper-class entitlement to a rich, privileged life. I believe that the real Dietrich was in love with his young student Eberhard, who was the beneficiary of his will. Dietrich reluctantly became engaged to marry the much younger Maria Von Wedemeyer only after her grandmother relentlessly pushed her on him and only after Eberhard got engaged to Dietrich's niece Renate.I don't get the sense that he was ever hot to make love with Maria. Perhaps their experience of 'true love' was always from an emotional distance, especially after Dietrich's arrest just three months after their announcement. There were letters and supervised visits. That's all.After both became engaged, Dietrich wrote to Eberhard, imagining that Now, we can resume our partnership, and we can travel together in those places where we found so much joy, and we can leave our wives back in Germany, in Berlin, or some place. In other words, they both acquired beards, and Dietrich longed to renew and pursue their spiritual friendship as 'soul mates' or whatever they decided to call it. But Eberhard was never willing to venture below the belt (as far as we can tell).I'm not at all sure that Dietrich was ever willing to go there, much as he may have longed to do just that. He wrote in prison that he would die a virgin.But since Eberhard's whole life was about Dietrich--especially as his martyred mentor and forever lost lover--how hard is it to understand the depth of his love in return?At least that's my version of Bonhoeffer. Now I'll have to see the damn movie!Marshall Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay-- Deal With It Links in the message (1) | | | One More Post on the “Gay” Bonhoeffer | | | | Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay--... | _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net -- Richard H. T. AltonICA Global FundThe Last ChapterUnited Methodist Net ZeroT: 773.344.7172richard.alton@gmail.comMake Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor?_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
On Nov 23, 2024, at 12:08 PM, Sarah Buss via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
In case it’s relevant: I just had a v-cell treatment for macular deterioration. Time will tell the results. Sarah Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 23, 2024, at 8:39 AM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Hmm, how did the song go? "Observe and judge, the given facts, Weigh up the values . . "
Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking
On Nov 23, 2024, at 7:24 AM, W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dick, you. wrote, "go see the money..." OK, so show me the money! Seriously, I probably will catch the flick eventually. And I certainly want to. But I'm going for my fifth eye surgery on Monday, so I won't be seeing too well in the immediate future. Bonhoeffer will just have to wait on my bucket list. So far I'm just reporting that all of the world's Bonhoeffer scholars are up in arms about this flick, including 'emeritus' Professor John De Gruchy of South Africa (whom I do not know personally, though we have in common a collegial relationship with another 'emeritus' professor of ethics), who is a leader of the International Bonhoeffer Society: English Language Section <https://bonhoeffersociety.org/>, and a translator and editor of several Bonhoeffer books in English, including Letters and Papers from Prison. There's gotta be a reason why there's so much smoke here. Maybe an international firestorm! So Dick, why not write your own review of the film? Marshall
On Friday, November 22, 2024 at 07:47:49 PM EST, Richard Alton via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Marshal. go see the money and lead an ORID conversation with your community.. will surprise you. Dick
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 5:31 PM W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: I still haven't seen the movie, but a few of us have. Here's my response to a private email from one colleague: Marshall
D**, I'm guessing from your description that the screenplay was not the result of any in-depth study of Bonhoeffer's life or his theology. I bet the screenwriter didn't even bother to read Eberhard Bethge's biography. What I think he did is to create a cartoon Bonhoeffer character by superimposing the skeletal outline of Bonhoeffer's life onto a thriller movie framework. Leaving out the nuances and agonizing complexities of Bonhoeffer's ethical dilemmas as a pacifist. I'm not shocked that this cartoon version of Bonhoeffer has him wishing to "tear down the institutional church." I think the real Bonhoeffer's life was more profoundly nuanced than that kind of statement. His Life Together and The Cost of Discipleship were written while he supervised the underground seminary at Finkenwalde for students who were preparing to serve the dissenting Confessing Church that opposed the official German Church coalition that embraced Hitler. His focus on a "religionless Christianity" is a rejection of the 'smells and bells' and medieval belief system Luther inherited from Catholicism in favor of a radical immersion in the secular life of the world. And also a radical following of Jesus rather than middle class cultural norms. Something like the monastic life of seminary students at Finkenwalde. Or maybe the O:E. Although Bonhoeffer never abandoned his upper-class entitlement to a rich, privileged life. I believe that the real Dietrich was in love with his young student Eberhard <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/>, who was the beneficiary of his will. Dietrich reluctantly became engaged to marry the much younger Maria Von Wedemeyer only after her grandmother relentlessly pushed her on him and only after Eberhard got engaged to Dietrich's niece Renate. I don't get the sense that he was ever hot to make love with Maria. Perhaps their experience of 'true love' was always from an emotional distance, especially after Dietrich's arrest just three months after their announcement. There were letters and supervised visits. That's all. After both became engaged, Dietrich wrote to Eberhard, imagining that Now, we can resume our partnership, and we can travel together in those places where we found so much joy, and we can leave our wives back in Germany, in Berlin, or some place. In other words, they both acquired beards, and Dietrich longed to renew and pursue their spiritual friendship as 'soul mates' or whatever they decided to call it. But Eberhard was never willing to venture below the belt (as far as we can tell). I'm not at all sure that Dietrich was ever willing to go there, much as he may have longed to do just that. He wrote in prison that he would die a virgin. But since Eberhard's whole life was about Dietrich--especially as his martyred mentor and forever lost lover--how hard is it to understand the depth of his love in return? At least that's my version of Bonhoeffer. Now I'll have to see the damn movie! Marshall
Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay-- Deal With It <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/> Links in the message (1)
One More Post on the “Gay” Bonhoeffer <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/> Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay--... <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/>
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-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund The Last Chapter United Methodist Net Zero T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com <mailto:richard.alton@gmail.com> Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor? _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
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Sorry about the money mistake. But I have seen the movie and thought Terry's comments were right on target. I am going to try and get my Methodist Church to go see the movie together and have an ORID conversation. Will be interesting. Sorry about yours and Sarah's eye problems. Just had a cataract operation. The eyes seem to go first as we age. Thanks, Dick On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 6:46 PM Richard Alton <richard.alton@gmail.com> wrote:
Marshal. go see the money and lead an ORID conversation with your community.. will surprise you. Dick
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 5:31 PM W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I still haven't seen the movie, but a few of us have. Here's my response to a private email from one colleague: Marshall
D**, I'm guessing from your description that the screenplay was not the result of any in-depth study of Bonhoeffer's life or his theology. I bet the screenwriter didn't even bother to read Eberhard Bethge's biography. What I think he did is to create a cartoon Bonhoeffer character by superimposing the skeletal outline of Bonhoeffer's life onto a thriller movie framework. Leaving out the nuances and agonizing complexities of Bonhoeffer's ethical dilemmas as a pacifist. I'm not shocked that this cartoon version of Bonhoeffer has him wishing to "tear down the institutional church." I think the real Bonhoeffer's life was more profoundly nuanced than that kind of statement. His *Life Together* and *The Cost of Discipleship* were written while he supervised the underground seminary at Finkenwalde for students who were preparing to serve the dissenting Confessing Church that opposed the official German Church coalition that embraced Hitler. His focus on a "religionless Christianity" is a rejection of the 'smells and bells' and medieval belief system Luther inherited from Catholicism in favor of a radical immersion in the secular life of the world. And also a radical following of Jesus rather than middle class cultural norms. Something like the monastic life of seminary students at Finkenwalde. Or maybe the O:E. Although Bonhoeffer never abandoned his upper-class entitlement to a rich, privileged life. I believe that the real Dietrich was in love with his young student Eberhard <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/>, who was the beneficiary of his will. Dietrich reluctantly became engaged to marry the much younger Maria Von Wedemeyer only after her grandmother relentlessly pushed her on him and only after Eberhard got engaged to Dietrich's niece Renate. I don't get the sense that he was ever hot to make love with Maria. Perhaps their experience of 'true love' was always from an emotional distance, especially after Dietrich's arrest just three months after their announcement. There were letters and supervised visits. That's all. After both became engaged, Dietrich wrote to Eberhard, imagining that
*Now, we can resume our partnership, and we can travel together in those places where we found so much joy, and we can leave our wives back in Germany, in Berlin, or some place.*
In other words, they both acquired beards, and Dietrich longed to renew and pursue their spiritual friendship as 'soul mates' or whatever they decided to call it. But Eberhard was never willing to venture below the belt (as far as we can tell). I'm not at all sure that Dietrich was ever willing to go there, much as he may have longed to do just that. He wrote in prison that he would die a virgin. But since Eberhard's *whole life* was about Dietrich--especially as his martyred mentor and forever lost lover--how *hard* is it to understand the depth of his love in return? At least that's *my* version of Bonhoeffer. Now I'll have to see the damn movie! Marshall
Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay-- Deal With It <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/> Links in the message (1) One More Post on the “Gay” Bonhoeffer <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/> Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay--... <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/>
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund The Last Chapter United Methodist Net Zero T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor?
-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund The Last Chapter United Methodist Net Zero T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor?
Dick, I applaud your interest in introducing your Methodist Church to Bonhoeffer with a movie and a movie conversation.If you want to evaluate the various available Bonhoeffer films for appropriateness for your audience and your pedagogical intent, instead of just promoting the latest one that you just saw, check out this listing from the International Bonhoeffer Society:https://bonhoeffersociety.org/2024/10/25/bonhoeffer-documentaries-and-films/ My perspective is that all of these films translate Bonhoeffer into being a character acting in a story the filmmaker wants to tell. Each film may illuminate a facet of Dietrich's life, but we can never know all of his internal process as he struggled to discern the will of God for his life and death.What comes closest to illuminating his personal struggle are the glimmers we catch through reading his writings and what witnesses have to say about his extraordinary presence with others in places like Tegel Prison, for example.I would not want to be the director who had to select an actor who could fully embody this role in a movie, especially if that kind of depth were not even hinted at in the script. And if I had failed as a director to grasp a sense of what the real Bonhoeffer was about.I might wind up with a turkey of a film. But my bottom line is that everybody creates his or her own personal version of who Bonhoeffer was, based on one's individual values, perceptions, and experience of dealing with life questions. Or not.And so the decisional question is, what is each of us going to do with "our" Bonhoeffer? What does "our" Bonhoeffer mean to us?MarshallI've attached my version of a generic list of possible questions for a movie conversation. These are like a 'palette' of colors from which to draw as appropriate for the group and their process. Please improve on this version by adding your own generic questions or questions pertinent to the Bonhoeffer film you decide to show. On Saturday, November 23, 2024 at 08:35:06 PM EST, Richard Alton via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Sorry about the money mistake. But I have seen the movie and thought Terry's comments were right on target. I am going to try and get my Methodist Church to go see the movie together and have an ORID conversation. Will be interesting. Sorry about yours and Sarah's eye problems. Just had a cataract operation. The eyes seem to go first as we age.Thanks, Dick On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 6:46 PM Richard Alton <richard.alton@gmail.com> wrote: Marshal. go see the money and lead an ORID conversation with your community.. will surprise you.Dick On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 5:31 PM W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: I still haven't seen the movie, but a few of us have. Here's my response to a private email from one colleague:Marshall D**, I'm guessing from your description that the screenplay was not the result of any in-depth study of Bonhoeffer's life or his theology. I bet the screenwriter didn't even bother to read Eberhard Bethge's biography.What I think he did is to create a cartoon Bonhoeffer character by superimposing the skeletal outline of Bonhoeffer's life onto a thriller movie framework.Leaving out the nuances and agonizing complexities of Bonhoeffer's ethical dilemmas as a pacifist.I'm not shocked that this cartoon version of Bonhoeffer has him wishing to "tear down the institutional church." I think the real Bonhoeffer's life was more profoundly nuanced than that kind of statement. His Life Together and The Cost of Discipleship were written while he supervised the underground seminary at Finkenwalde for students who were preparing to serve the dissenting Confessing Church that opposed the official German Church coalition that embraced Hitler. His focus on a "religionless Christianity" is a rejection of the 'smells and bells' and medieval belief system Luther inherited from Catholicism in favor of a radical immersion in the secular life of the world.And also a radical following of Jesus rather than middle class cultural norms.Something like the monastic life of seminary students at Finkenwalde. Or maybe the O:E. Although Bonhoeffer never abandoned his upper-class entitlement to a rich, privileged life. I believe that the real Dietrich was in love with his young student Eberhard, who was the beneficiary of his will. Dietrich reluctantly became engaged to marry the much younger Maria Von Wedemeyer only after her grandmother relentlessly pushed her on him and only after Eberhard got engaged to Dietrich's niece Renate.I don't get the sense that he was ever hot to make love with Maria. Perhaps their experience of 'true love' was always from an emotional distance, especially after Dietrich's arrest just three months after their announcement. There were letters and supervised visits. That's all.After both became engaged, Dietrich wrote to Eberhard, imagining that Now, we can resume our partnership, and we can travel together in those places where we found so much joy, and we can leave our wives back in Germany, in Berlin, or some place. In other words, they both acquired beards, and Dietrich longed to renew and pursue their spiritual friendship as 'soul mates' or whatever they decided to call it. But Eberhard was never willing to venture below the belt (as far as we can tell).I'm not at all sure that Dietrich was ever willing to go there, much as he may have longed to do just that. He wrote in prison that he would die a virgin.But since Eberhard's whole life was about Dietrich--especially as his martyred mentor and forever lost lover--how hard is it to understand the depth of his love in return?At least that's my version of Bonhoeffer. Now I'll have to see the damn movie!Marshall Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay-- Deal With It Links in the message (1) | | | One More Post on the “Gay” Bonhoeffer | | | | Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay--... | _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net -- Richard H. T. AltonICA Global FundThe Last ChapterUnited Methodist Net ZeroT: 773.344.7172richard.alton@gmail.comMake Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor? -- Richard H. T. AltonICA Global FundThe Last ChapterUnited Methodist Net ZeroT: 773.344.7172richard.alton@gmail.comMake Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor?_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Thanks for the questions, Marshall Dick On Sun, Nov 24, 2024 at 1:54 PM W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dick, I applaud your interest in introducing your Methodist Church to Bonhoeffer with a movie and a movie conversation. If you want to evaluate the various available Bonhoeffer films for appropriateness for your audience and your pedagogical intent, instead of just promoting the latest one that you just saw, check out this listing from the International Bonhoeffer Society:
https://bonhoeffersociety.org/2024/10/25/bonhoeffer-documentaries-and-films/ My perspective is that *all* of these films translate Bonhoeffer into being a character acting in a story the filmmaker wants to tell. Each film may illuminate a facet of Dietrich's life, but we can never know *all* of his internal process as he struggled to discern the will of God for his life and death. What comes closest to illuminating his personal struggle are the glimmers we catch through reading his writings and what witnesses have to say about his extraordinary presence with others in places like Tegel Prison, for example. I would not want to be the director who had to select an actor who could fully embody this role in a movie, especially if that kind of depth were not even hinted at in the script. And if I had failed as a director to grasp a sense of what the *real* Bonhoeffer was about. I might wind up with a *turkey* of a film. But my bottom line is that everybody creates his or her own personal version of who Bonhoeffer was, based on one's individual values, perceptions, and experience of dealing with life questions. Or not. And so the decisional question is, what is each of us going to do with "our" Bonhoeffer? What does "our" Bonhoeffer mean to us? Marshall I've attached my version of a generic list of possible questions for a movie conversation. These are like a 'palette' of colors from which to draw as appropriate for the group and their process. Please *improve* on this version by adding your own generic questions or questions pertinent to the Bonhoeffer film you decide to show. On Saturday, November 23, 2024 at 08:35:06 PM EST, Richard Alton via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Sorry about the money mistake. But I have seen the movie and thought Terry's comments were right on target. I am going to try and get my Methodist Church to go see the movie together and have an ORID conversation. Will be interesting. Sorry about yours and Sarah's eye problems. Just had a cataract operation. The eyes seem to go first as we age. Thanks, Dick
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 6:46 PM Richard Alton <richard.alton@gmail.com> wrote:
Marshal. go see the money and lead an ORID conversation with your community.. will surprise you. Dick
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 5:31 PM W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I still haven't seen the movie, but a few of us have. Here's my response to a private email from one colleague: Marshall
D**, I'm guessing from your description that the screenplay was not the result of any in-depth study of Bonhoeffer's life or his theology. I bet the screenwriter didn't even bother to read Eberhard Bethge's biography. What I think he did is to create a cartoon Bonhoeffer character by superimposing the skeletal outline of Bonhoeffer's life onto a thriller movie framework. Leaving out the nuances and agonizing complexities of Bonhoeffer's ethical dilemmas as a pacifist. I'm not shocked that this cartoon version of Bonhoeffer has him wishing to "tear down the institutional church." I think the real Bonhoeffer's life was more profoundly nuanced than that kind of statement. His *Life Together* and *The Cost of Discipleship* were written while he supervised the underground seminary at Finkenwalde for students who were preparing to serve the dissenting Confessing Church that opposed the official German Church coalition that embraced Hitler. His focus on a "religionless Christianity" is a rejection of the 'smells and bells' and medieval belief system Luther inherited from Catholicism in favor of a radical immersion in the secular life of the world. And also a radical following of Jesus rather than middle class cultural norms. Something like the monastic life of seminary students at Finkenwalde. Or maybe the O:E. Although Bonhoeffer never abandoned his upper-class entitlement to a rich, privileged life. I believe that the real Dietrich was in love with his young student Eberhard <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/>, who was the beneficiary of his will. Dietrich reluctantly became engaged to marry the much younger Maria Von Wedemeyer only after her grandmother relentlessly pushed her on him and only after Eberhard got engaged to Dietrich's niece Renate. I don't get the sense that he was ever hot to make love with Maria. Perhaps their experience of 'true love' was always from an emotional distance, especially after Dietrich's arrest just three months after their announcement. There were letters and supervised visits. That's all. After both became engaged, Dietrich wrote to Eberhard, imagining that
*Now, we can resume our partnership, and we can travel together in those places where we found so much joy, and we can leave our wives back in Germany, in Berlin, or some place.*
In other words, they both acquired beards, and Dietrich longed to renew and pursue their spiritual friendship as 'soul mates' or whatever they decided to call it. But Eberhard was never willing to venture below the belt (as far as we can tell). I'm not at all sure that Dietrich was ever willing to go there, much as he may have longed to do just that. He wrote in prison that he would die a virgin. But since Eberhard's *whole life* was about Dietrich--especially as his martyred mentor and forever lost lover--how *hard* is it to understand the depth of his love in return? At least that's *my* version of Bonhoeffer. Now I'll have to see the damn movie! Marshall
Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay-- Deal With It <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/> Links in the message (1) One More Post on the “Gay” Bonhoeffer <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/> Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay--... <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/>
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund The Last Chapter United Methodist Net Zero T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor?
-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund The Last Chapter United Methodist Net Zero T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor? _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund The Last Chapter United Methodist Net Zero T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor?
Marshall-thank you for your questions-a most excellent example of artform development demonstrating how the questions are almost like a spectrum where the central question of each level is like the true red gradually changing into the true blue. Thank you. Don 828-292-9696 On Sun, Nov 24, 2024 at 1:21 PM Richard Alton via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Thanks for the questions, Marshall Dick
On Sun, Nov 24, 2024 at 1:54 PM W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dick, I applaud your interest in introducing your Methodist Church to Bonhoeffer with a movie and a movie conversation. If you want to evaluate the various available Bonhoeffer films for appropriateness for your audience and your pedagogical intent, instead of just promoting the latest one that you just saw, check out this listing from the International Bonhoeffer Society:
https://bonhoeffersociety.org/2024/10/25/bonhoeffer-documentaries-and-films/ My perspective is that *all* of these films translate Bonhoeffer into being a character acting in a story the filmmaker wants to tell. Each film may illuminate a facet of Dietrich's life, but we can never know *all* of his internal process as he struggled to discern the will of God for his life and death. What comes closest to illuminating his personal struggle are the glimmers we catch through reading his writings and what witnesses have to say about his extraordinary presence with others in places like Tegel Prison, for example. I would not want to be the director who had to select an actor who could fully embody this role in a movie, especially if that kind of depth were not even hinted at in the script. And if I had failed as a director to grasp a sense of what the *real* Bonhoeffer was about. I might wind up with a *turkey* of a film. But my bottom line is that everybody creates his or her own personal version of who Bonhoeffer was, based on one's individual values, perceptions, and experience of dealing with life questions. Or not. And so the decisional question is, what is each of us going to do with "our" Bonhoeffer? What does "our" Bonhoeffer mean to us? Marshall I've attached my version of a generic list of possible questions for a movie conversation. These are like a 'palette' of colors from which to draw as appropriate for the group and their process. Please *improve* on this version by adding your own generic questions or questions pertinent to the Bonhoeffer film you decide to show. On Saturday, November 23, 2024 at 08:35:06 PM EST, Richard Alton via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Sorry about the money mistake. But I have seen the movie and thought Terry's comments were right on target. I am going to try and get my Methodist Church to go see the movie together and have an ORID conversation. Will be interesting. Sorry about yours and Sarah's eye problems. Just had a cataract operation. The eyes seem to go first as we age. Thanks, Dick
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 6:46 PM Richard Alton <richard.alton@gmail.com> wrote:
Marshal. go see the money and lead an ORID conversation with your community.. will surprise you. Dick
On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 5:31 PM W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I still haven't seen the movie, but a few of us have. Here's my response to a private email from one colleague: Marshall
D**, I'm guessing from your description that the screenplay was not the result of any in-depth study of Bonhoeffer's life or his theology. I bet the screenwriter didn't even bother to read Eberhard Bethge's biography. What I think he did is to create a cartoon Bonhoeffer character by superimposing the skeletal outline of Bonhoeffer's life onto a thriller movie framework. Leaving out the nuances and agonizing complexities of Bonhoeffer's ethical dilemmas as a pacifist. I'm not shocked that this cartoon version of Bonhoeffer has him wishing to "tear down the institutional church." I think the real Bonhoeffer's life was more profoundly nuanced than that kind of statement. His *Life Together* and *The Cost of Discipleship* were written while he supervised the underground seminary at Finkenwalde for students who were preparing to serve the dissenting Confessing Church that opposed the official German Church coalition that embraced Hitler. His focus on a "religionless Christianity" is a rejection of the 'smells and bells' and medieval belief system Luther inherited from Catholicism in favor of a radical immersion in the secular life of the world. And also a radical following of Jesus rather than middle class cultural norms. Something like the monastic life of seminary students at Finkenwalde. Or maybe the O:E. Although Bonhoeffer never abandoned his upper-class entitlement to a rich, privileged life. I believe that the real Dietrich was in love with his young student Eberhard <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/>, who was the beneficiary of his will. Dietrich reluctantly became engaged to marry the much younger Maria Von Wedemeyer only after her grandmother relentlessly pushed her on him and only after Eberhard got engaged to Dietrich's niece Renate. I don't get the sense that he was ever hot to make love with Maria. Perhaps their experience of 'true love' was always from an emotional distance, especially after Dietrich's arrest just three months after their announcement. There were letters and supervised visits. That's all. After both became engaged, Dietrich wrote to Eberhard, imagining that
*Now, we can resume our partnership, and we can travel together in those places where we found so much joy, and we can leave our wives back in Germany, in Berlin, or some place.*
In other words, they both acquired beards, and Dietrich longed to renew and pursue their spiritual friendship as 'soul mates' or whatever they decided to call it. But Eberhard was never willing to venture below the belt (as far as we can tell). I'm not at all sure that Dietrich was ever willing to go there, much as he may have longed to do just that. He wrote in prison that he would die a virgin. But since Eberhard's *whole life* was about Dietrich--especially as his martyred mentor and forever lost lover--how *hard* is it to understand the depth of his love in return? At least that's *my* version of Bonhoeffer. Now I'll have to see the damn movie! Marshall
Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay-- Deal With It <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/> Links in the message (1) One More Post on the “Gay” Bonhoeffer <https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/> Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay--... <https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/>
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-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund The Last Chapter United Methodist Net Zero T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor?
-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund The Last Chapter United Methodist Net Zero T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor? _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund The Last Chapter United Methodist Net Zero T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor? _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
participants (6)
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Don Bushman -
James Wiegel -
Karen Snyder Troxel -
Richard Alton -
Sarah Buss -
W. J.