Re: [Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas
Methodism seems to be teetering on the brink of rebellion, confrontation, and schism.You can follow the rapid escalation of Methodist conflict in the following articles: Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage Evan as more states legalize gay marriage, United Methodist leaders appear at an impasse. View on www.usatoda... Preview by Yahoo http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2014-03/time-split http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/08/conservative-church-leaders-co... http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/02/conversation-good-newss-tom-la... http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/01/good-news-releases-statement-c... In the light of the current 'conversation' in Methodist circles cited above, I find John Epps' characterization of the key conflict over the Discipline as a "non-issue" very puzzling. If I were a betting man, I'd bet about 50 million bucks that Bill McElvaney, Tom Ogletree, and Bishops McLee, Johnson, and Talbert (as well as many others) would NOT call 'ceremonies of homosexual union' a "non-issue" for United Methodists. I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's a HUGE distraction from the REAL missional issues that the church should be struggling to address. But when I look through the keyhole of this so-called "non-issue" that threatens denominational schism (similar to the schism over slavery in 1844), what I see looming are the VERY SAME theological/cultural issues that define the cultural rift (I accidentally typed 'risk'--there's that too!) with the Tea Party radical right wing. The 'Good News' contingent is going whole hog to use Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism to defrock noncompliant Methodist clergy, retired seminary presidents, and bishops. This is about instilling fear in bishops and clergy alike by using the Discipline to crack down on dissenters. So with all respect due to John, I cannot call this a "non-issue". Our profound cultural and theological biases around 'heteronormativity' are as much of a HUGE issue as our biases around the racial inferiority of people of color and female submission to male dominance (not to mention the economic imperialism of the "1%"). I grew up in what had been the Methodist Episcopal Church, South until the year before I was born. That geographic contingent in reunited Methodism retained its political and cultural clout as the lily-white Southeastern Jurisdiction until the Central Jurisdiction was dissolved in 1968 as a condition of union with the EUB's. I mention this ancient history to point out that the cultural legacy enshrined in the 'Good News' version of conservative southern Methodism is the legacy of slavery and 'White Supremacy' that their white male Methodist ancestors fought and died to preserve forever. Bishop Francis Asbury (whose name is legendary to this day in western North Carolina) wrote in his journal that on 11/30/1810 he spent the night (and very likely preached in the attic chapel) in the house Jacob Shook built in 1795 in what is now Clyde, NC near Lake Junaluska. Friday our troubles began at a foaming, roaring stream, which hid the rocks. At Catahouche I walked over a log, but then O the mountains- height after height and five miles over! After crossing many streams and after losing ourselves in the woods for a time, about 9 o'clock at night we gratefully came to Vater Shucks. If you visit Jacob Shook's house today, you can see a handwritten receipt for the purchase of several slaves. After he died in 1837 his house and farmland was purchased by members of the Welch family, who together had about 150 slaves. I mention this to illustrate that slavery was considered economically 'necessary' and normalized by this part of white Methodism as God's Will for Africans. Even Asbury failed to object, though he denounced slavery and pleaded for abolition with George Washington. In Clyde and throughout Haywood County the heritage of slavery is almost totally invisible today. The slave cabins are long gone, as are the descendants of slaves who worked the plantations. The county is about 96% white, 1% black, and only 1/2% Native American. The cultural reality of white male dominance is so pervasive, normalized, and unconsciously internalized that residents and visitors alike don't even think about it. When they visit nearby Cherokee, NC, they focus more on the lure of the casino than on the hidden-in-plain-sight reality of 'ethnic cleansing' that forced the vast majority of the Cherokee Nation to endure a death march to Oklahoma. Even this tragic history has been reduced to summer theatre for tourists. Since 1972 United Methodist clergy have been required to enforce the standards of 'heteronormativity' to eliminate what Aquinas called the 'vice against nature', which includes any and every sexual act except for heterosexual intercourse in the famous missionary position (reserved exclusively for those legally and heterosexually married, of course!). Aquinas seems unconcerned with the fact that 70% of women can't orgasm that way. Perhaps he was concerned only that women did their procreative duty, whether they enjoyed it or not. Reserving 'holy matrimony' for certain classes of people makes everybody else's sexuality second class, promoting 'sexual cleansing' in the church. The Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism of the Methodist system leads to a Taliban concept of justice that inevitably exacts severe punishment of violators. Methodists exemplify the tyranny of majority rule with zero tolerance for minority views within the system. If your upcoming wedding would be welcomed in a Methodist Church, that's because you are enjoying hetero privilege (and probably taking it for granted). White male supremacy takes sexual privileging for granted. If you owned slaves, you could totally control and manipulate them sexually. You could have sexual intercourse and father 'illegitimate' children with people of color who were coerced or bullied, or who used your sexual interest to acquire personal benefits. Often family members could not protect them. You could invoke 'Racial Purity' to constrain and manipulate white women sexually. You could demand 'monogamy' from your wife to control her sexual interest in other people, while you ignored that standard in your own behavior. Now the likes of Maxie Dunham and Fred Phelps simply reflect the mindset of white male sexual privilege. Since Loving vs. Virginia they can't get away with railing against 'miscegenation.' Now their last refuge is their obsession with the evil of non-procreative sexual coupling symbolized in 'ceremonies of homosexual union.' And yet John Epps calls this a "non-issue." I say: wake up and smell the coffee, John! Marshall Jones ________________________________ From: JOHN L. EPPS <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> To: W. J. <synergi@yahoo.com> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas Thanks Marshall. When I was at Perkins, Bill McElvaney, Bill Holmes, and the late Will Bailey were the three Dallas "role models" for the forward-looking theologs. All three were students of Joe. It's good to see he's still pushing the envelope, though it's a shame that this non-issue takes so much energy. Quoting "W. J." <synergi@yahoo.com>:
more Methodist news from Texas:
http://um-insight.net/issues-section/supervisory-response-under-way-for-rev-...
Marshall
---------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail has been sent via JARING webmail at http://www.jaring.my
George Holcombe is one of the Texas 'rebels' Marshall Jones 10 Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings of Same-Sex Couples 10 Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings ... Even though their denomination's policy officially prohibits clergy from officiating at the wedding of any same-sex couple at the risk of losing their ordination, t... View on unitedmethod... Preview by Yahoo On Saturday, June 14, 2014 12:38 PM, W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Methodism seems to be teetering on the brink of rebellion, confrontation, and schism.You can follow the rapid escalation of Methodist conflict in the following articles: Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage Evan as more states legalize gay marriage, United Methodist leaders appear at an impasse. View on www.usatoda... Preview by Yahoo http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2014-03/time-split http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/08/conservative-church-leaders-co... http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/02/conversation-good-newss-tom-la... http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/01/good-news-releases-statement-c... In the light of the current 'conversation' in Methodist circles cited above, I find John Epps' characterization of the key conflict over the Discipline as a "non-issue" very puzzling. If I were a betting man, I'd bet about 50 million bucks that Bill McElvaney, Tom Ogletree, and Bishops McLee, Johnson, and Talbert (as well as many others) would NOT call 'ceremonies of homosexual union' a "non-issue" for United Methodists. I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's a HUGE distraction from the REAL missional issues that the church should be struggling to address. But when I look through the keyhole of this so-called "non-issue" that threatens denominational schism (similar to the schism over slavery in 1844), what I see looming are the VERY SAME theological/cultural issues that define the cultural rift (I accidentally typed 'risk'--there's that too!) with the Tea Party radical right wing. The 'Good News' contingent is going whole hog to use Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism to defrock noncompliant Methodist clergy, retired seminary presidents, and bishops. This is about instilling fear in bishops and clergy alike by using the Discipline to crack down on dissenters. So with all respect due to John, I cannot call this a "non-issue". Our profound cultural and theological biases around 'heteronormativity' are as much of a HUGE issue as our biases around the racial inferiority of people of color and female submission to male dominance (not to mention the economic imperialism of the "1%"). I grew up in what had been the Methodist Episcopal Church, South until the year before I was born. That geographic contingent in reunited Methodism retained its political and cultural clout as the lily-white Southeastern Jurisdiction until the Central Jurisdiction was dissolved in 1968 as a condition of union with the EUB's. I mention this ancient history to point out that the cultural legacy enshrined in the 'Good News' version of conservative southern Methodism is the legacy of slavery and 'White Supremacy' that their white male Methodist ancestors fought and died to preserve forever. Bishop Francis Asbury (whose name is legendary to this day in western North Carolina) wrote in his journal that on 11/30/1810 he spent the night (and very likely preached in the attic chapel) in the house Jacob Shook built in 1795 in what is now Clyde, NC near Lake Junaluska. Friday our troubles began at a foaming, roaring stream, which hid the rocks. At Catahouche I walked over a log, but then O the mountains- height after height and five miles over! After crossing many streams and after losing ourselves in the woods for a time, about 9 o'clock at night we gratefully came to Vater Shucks. If you visit Jacob Shook's house today, you can see a handwritten receipt for the purchase of several slaves. After he died in 1837 his house and farmland was purchased by members of the Welch family, who together had about 150 slaves. I mention this to illustrate that slavery was considered economically 'necessary' and normalized by this part of white Methodism as God's Will for Africans. Even Asbury failed to object, though he denounced slavery and pleaded for abolition with George Washington. In Clyde and throughout Haywood County the heritage of slavery is almost totally invisible today. The slave cabins are long gone, as are the descendants of slaves who worked the plantations. The county is about 96% white, 1% black, and only 1/2% Native American. The cultural reality of white male dominance is so pervasive, normalized, and unconsciously internalized that residents and visitors alike don't even think about it. When they visit nearby Cherokee, NC, they focus more on the lure of the casino than on the hidden-in-plain-sight reality of 'ethnic cleansing' that forced the vast majority of the Cherokee Nation to endure a death march to Oklahoma. Even this tragic history has been reduced to summer theatre for tourists. Since 1972 United Methodist clergy have been required to enforce the standards of 'heteronormativity' to eliminate what Aquinas called the 'vice against nature', which includes any and every sexual act except for heterosexual intercourse in the famous missionary position (reserved exclusively for those legally and heterosexually married, of course!). Aquinas seems unconcerned with the fact that 70% of women can't orgasm that way. Perhaps he was concerned only that women did their procreative duty, whether they enjoyed it or not. Reserving 'holy matrimony' for certain classes of people makes everybody else's sexuality second class, promoting 'sexual cleansing' in the church. The Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism of the Methodist system leads to a Taliban concept of justice that inevitably exacts severe punishment of violators. Methodists exemplify the tyranny of majority rule with zero tolerance for minority views within the system. If your upcoming wedding would be welcomed in a Methodist Church, that's because you are enjoying hetero privilege (and probably taking it for granted). White male supremacy takes sexual privileging for granted. If you owned slaves, you could totally control and manipulate them sexually. You could have sexual intercourse and father 'illegitimate' children with people of color who were coerced or bullied, or who used your sexual interest to acquire personal benefits. Often family members could not protect them. You could invoke 'Racial Purity' to constrain and manipulate white women sexually. You could demand 'monogamy' from your wife to control her sexual interest in other people, while you ignored that standard in your own behavior. Now the likes of Maxie Dunham and Fred Phelps simply reflect the mindset of white male sexual privilege. Since Loving vs. Virginia they can't get away with railing against 'miscegenation.' Now their last refuge is their obsession with the evil of non-procreative sexual coupling symbolized in 'ceremonies of homosexual union.' And yet John Epps calls this a "non-issue." I say: wake up and smell the coffee, John! Marshall Jones ________________________________ From: JOHN L. EPPS <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> To: W. J. <synergi@yahoo.com> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas Thanks Marshall. When I was at Perkins, Bill McElvaney, Bill Holmes, and the late Will Bailey were the three Dallas "role models" for the forward-looking theologs. All three were students of Joe. It's good to see he's still pushing the envelope, though it's a shame that this non-issue takes so much energy. Quoting "W. J." <synergi@yahoo.com>:
more Methodist news from Texas:
http://um-insight.net/issues-section/supervisory-response-under-way-for-rev-...
Marshall
---------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail has been sent via JARING webmail at http://www.jaring.my _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Dear Marshall, I don’t believe John is "talking out of school.” I’m sure he can speak for himself, but LBGT for our society is a non-issue, it’s over. Gay marriage will be the law of the land. Every day the LBGT community is gaining ground. For the younger generation it’s a non-issue. The UMC is just running into a stone wall. It would be much better if they let loose of the prejudice and got on with the business at hand. Climate Change, poverty, corptocracy, just to name a few need action. I am glad to see our Board of Pensions removing investments from companies that support Israel, but there’s lots more stuff we need to be about. We have a good bunch of local clergy who stand with us who’ve signed the pledge. The “Conservatives” (although I’m not sure that’s the correct appellation) are going to scream their heads off, but time is marching on. For the UMC a real LGBT issue is going to be how we support the gays in Africa and elsewhere and deal with a false interpretation of scripture, discipline and tradition that leads to hatred and violence. It’s happening. Reality is staring us in the face. George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 grholcombe@gmail.com "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley On Jun 14, 2014, at 3:01 PM, W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
George Holcombe is one of the Texas 'rebels' Marshall Jones 10 Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings of Same-Sex Couples
10 Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings ... Even though their denomination's policy officially prohibits clergy from officiating at the wedding of any same-sex couple at the risk of losing their ordination, t... View on unitedmethod... Preview by Yahoo
On Saturday, June 14, 2014 12:38 PM, W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Methodism seems to be teetering on the brink of rebellion, confrontation, and schism.You can follow the rapid escalation of Methodist conflict in the following articles:
Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage
Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage Evan as more states legalize gay marriage, United Methodist leaders appear at an impasse. View on www.usatoda... Preview by Yahoo
http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2014-03/time-split http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/08/conservative-church-leaders-co... http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/02/conversation-good-newss-tom-la... http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/01/good-news-releases-statement-c...
In the light of the current 'conversation' in Methodist circles cited above, I find John Epps' characterization of the key conflict over the Discipline as a "non-issue" very puzzling.
If I were a betting man, I'd bet about 50 million bucks that Bill McElvaney, Tom Ogletree, and Bishops McLee, Johnson, and Talbert (as well as many others) would NOT call 'ceremonies of homosexual union' a "non-issue" for United Methodists.
I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's a HUGE distraction from the REAL missional issues that the church should be struggling to address.
But when I look through the keyhole of this so-called "non-issue" that threatens denominational schism (similar to the schism over slavery in 1844), what I see looming are the VERY SAME theological/cultural issues that define the cultural rift (I accidentally typed 'risk'--there's that too!) with the Tea Party radical right wing.
The 'Good News' contingent is going whole hog to use Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism to defrock noncompliant Methodist clergy, retired seminary presidents, and bishops. This is about instilling fear in bishops and clergy alike by using the Discipline to crack down on dissenters.
So with all respect due to John, I cannot call this a "non-issue".
Our profound cultural and theological biases around 'heteronormativity' are as much of a HUGE issue as our biases around the racial inferiority of people of color and female submission to male dominance (not to mention the economic imperialism of the "1%").
I grew up in what had been the Methodist Episcopal Church, South until the year before I was born. That geographic contingent in reunited Methodism retained its political and cultural clout as the lily-white Southeastern Jurisdiction until the Central Jurisdiction was dissolved in 1968 as a condition of union with the EUB's.
I mention this ancient history to point out that the cultural legacy enshrined in the 'Good News' version of conservative southern Methodism is the legacy of slavery and 'White Supremacy' that their white male Methodist ancestors fought and died to preserve forever.
Bishop Francis Asbury (whose name is legendary to this day in western North Carolina) wrote in his journal that on 11/30/1810 he spent the night (and very likely preached in the attic chapel) in the house Jacob Shook built in 1795 in what is now Clyde, NC near Lake Junaluska. Friday our troubles began at a foaming, roaring stream, which hid the rocks. At Catahouche I walked over a log, but then O the mountains- height after height and five miles over! After crossing many streams and after losing ourselves in the woods for a time, about 9 o'clock at night we gratefully came to Vater Shucks. If you visit Jacob Shook's house today, you can see a handwritten receipt for the purchase of several slaves. After he died in 1837 his house and farmland was purchased by members of the Welch family, who together had about 150 slaves. I mention this to illustrate that slavery was considered economically 'necessary' and normalized by this part of white Methodism as God's Will for Africans. Even Asbury failed to object, though he denounced slavery and pleaded for abolition with George Washington.
In Clyde and throughout Haywood County the heritage of slavery is almost totally invisible today. The slave cabins are long gone, as are the descendants of slaves who worked the plantations. The county is about 96% white, 1% black, and only 1/2% Native American.
The cultural reality of white male dominance is so pervasive, normalized, and unconsciously internalized that residents and visitors alike don't even think about it. When they visit nearby Cherokee, NC, they focus more on the lure of the casino than on the hidden-in-plain-sight reality of 'ethnic cleansing' that forced the vast majority of the Cherokee Nation to endure a death march to Oklahoma. Even this tragic history has been reduced to summer theatre for tourists.
Since 1972 United Methodist clergy have been required to enforce the standards of 'heteronormativity' to eliminate what Aquinas called the 'vice against nature', which includes any and every sexual act except for heterosexual intercourse in the famous missionary position (reserved exclusively for those legally and heterosexually married, of course!). Aquinas seems unconcerned with the fact that 70% of women can't orgasm that way. Perhaps he was concerned only that women did their procreative duty, whether they enjoyed it or not.
Reserving 'holy matrimony' for certain classes of people makes everybody else's sexuality second class, promoting 'sexual cleansing' in the church.
The Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism of the Methodist system leads to a Taliban concept of justice that inevitably exacts severe punishment of violators. Methodists exemplify the tyranny of majority rule with zero tolerance for minority views within the system.
If your upcoming wedding would be welcomed in a Methodist Church, that's because you are enjoying hetero privilege (and probably taking it for granted).
White male supremacy takes sexual privileging for granted. If you owned slaves, you could totally control and manipulate them sexually. You could have sexual intercourse and father 'illegitimate' children with people of color who were coerced or bullied, or who used your sexual interest to acquire personal benefits. Often family members could not protect them. You could invoke 'Racial Purity' to constrain and manipulate white women sexually. You could demand 'monogamy' from your wife to control her sexual interest in other people, while you ignored that standard in your own behavior.
Now the likes of Maxie Dunham and Fred Phelps simply reflect the mindset of white male sexual privilege. Since Loving vs. Virginia they can't get away with railing against 'miscegenation.' Now their last refuge is their obsession with the evil of non-procreative sexual coupling symbolized in 'ceremonies of homosexual union.'
And yet John Epps calls this a "non-issue." I say: wake up and smell the coffee, John!
Marshall Jones From: JOHN L. EPPS <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> To: W. J. <synergi@yahoo.com> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas
Thanks Marshall.
When I was at Perkins, Bill McElvaney, Bill Holmes, and the late Will Bailey were the three Dallas "role models" for the forward-looking theologs. All three were students of Joe. It's good to see he's still pushing the envelope, though it's a shame that this non-issue takes so much energy.
Quoting "W. J." <synergi@yahoo.com>:
more Methodist news from Texas:
http://um-insight.net/issues-section/supervisory-response-under-way-for-rev-...
Marshall
---------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail has been sent via JARING webmail at http://www.jaring.my
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Thanks for your thoughtful and historical response, Marshall. Your comment, "I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's a HUGE distraction from the REAL missional issues that the church should be struggling to address" is the only point I was attempting to make. Certainly I agree that same sex marriages should be honored in United Methodism. It would be a shame for the church to split over this. It has forced me to distinguish between the Church as institution and the Church as movement. The former exists to enable the latter, but often it lags behind. It even tends to function to perpetuate itself rather than its cause. When that happens, it's due for a reform. It may even be that the institutional church is wrestling with the major issue of accommodating diversity that affects societies around the world. If it's at that level, then maybe this is not a non-issue. Thanks for bringing up this level of the conversation. The coffee smells like Illy latte! John At 03:02 PM 6/14/2014, George Holcombe wrote:
Dear Marshall, I don't believe John is "talking out of school." I'm sure he can speak for himself, but LBGT for our society is a non-issue, it's over. Gay marriage will be the law of the land. Every day the LBGT community is gaining ground. For the younger generation it's a non-issue. The UMC is just running into a stone wall. It would be much better if they let loose of the prejudice and got on with the business at hand. Climate Change, poverty, corptocracy, just to name a few need action. I am glad to see our Board of Pensions removing investments from companies that support Israel, but there's lots more stuff we need to be about.
We have a good bunch of local clergy who stand with us who've signed the pledge. The "Conservatives" (although I'm not sure that's the correct appellation) are going to scream their heads off, but time is marching on. For the UMC a real LGBT issue is going to be how we support the gays in Africa and elsewhere and deal with a false interpretation of scripture, discipline and tradition that leads to hatred and violence.
It's happening. Reality is staring us in the face.
George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 <mailto:grholcombe@gmail.com>grholcombe@gmail.com
"Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Jun 14, 2014, at 3:01 PM, W. J. via OE <<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
George Holcombe is one of the Texas 'rebels' Marshall Jones <http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/06/13/texas-10/>10 Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings of Same-Sex Couples <http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/06/13/texas-10/> image
<http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/06/13/texas-10/>10 Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings ... Even though their denomination's policy officially prohibits clergy from officiating at the wedding of any same-sex couple at the risk of losing their ordination, t... <http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/06/13/texas-10/>View on unitedmethod... Preview by Yahoo
On Saturday, June 14, 2014 12:38 PM, W. J. via OE <<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Methodism seems to be teetering on the brink of rebellion, confrontation, and schism.You can follow the rapid escalation of Methodist conflict in the following articles:
<http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/08/methodists-fear-split-over-same-sex-marriage/10184053/>Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage <http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/08/methodists-fear-split-over-same-sex-marriage/10184053/> image
<http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/08/methodists-fear-split-over-same-sex-marriage/10184053/>Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage Evan as more states legalize gay marriage, United Methodist leaders appear at an impasse. <http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/08/methodists-fear-split-over-same-sex-marriage/10184053/>View on www.usatoda... Preview by Yahoo
<http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2014-03/time-split>http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2014-03/time-split http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/08/conservative-church-leaders-co... <http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/02/conversation-good-newss-tom-lambrecht/>http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/02/conversation-good-newss-tom-lambrecht/ http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/01/good-news-releases-statement-c...
In the light of the current 'conversation' in Methodist circles cited above, I find John Epps' characterization of the key conflict over the Discipline as a "non-issue" very puzzling.
If I were a betting man, I'd bet about 50 million bucks that Bill McElvaney, Tom Ogletree, and Bishops McLee, Johnson, and Talbert (as well as many others) would NOT call 'ceremonies of homosexual union' a "non-issue" for United Methodists.
I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's a HUGE distraction from the REAL missional issues that the church should be struggling to address.
But when I look through the keyhole of this so-called "non-issue" that threatens denominational schism (similar to the schism over slavery in 1844), what I see looming are the VERY SAME theological/cultural issues that define the cultural rift (I accidentally typed 'risk'--there's that too!) with the Tea Party radical right wing.
The 'Good News' contingent is going whole hog to use Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism to defrock noncompliant Methodist clergy, retired seminary presidents, and bishops. This is about instilling fear in bishops and clergy alike by using the Discipline to crack down on dissenters.
So with all respect due to John, I cannot call this a "non-issue".
Our profound cultural and theological biases around 'heteronormativity' are as much of a HUGE issue as our biases around the racial inferiority of people of color and female submission to male dominance (not to mention the economic imperialism of the "1%").
I grew up in what had been the Methodist Episcopal Church, South until the year before I was born. That geographic contingent in reunited Methodism retained its political and cultural clout as the lily-white Southeastern Jurisdiction until the Central Jurisdiction was dissolved in 1968 as a condition of union with the EUB's.
I mention this ancient history to point out that the cultural legacy enshrined in the 'Good News' version of conservative southern Methodism is the legacy of slavery and 'White Supremacy' that their white male Methodist ancestors fought and died to preserve forever.
Bishop Francis Asbury (whose name is legendary to this day in western North Carolina) wrote in his journal that on 11/30/1810 he spent the night (and very likely preached in the attic chapel) in the house Jacob Shook built in 1795 in what is now Clyde, NC near Lake Junaluska. Friday our troubles began at a foaming, roaring stream, which hid the rocks. At Catahouche I walked over a log, but then O the mountains- height after height and five miles over! After crossing many streams and after losing ourselves in the woods for a time, about 9 o'clock at night we gratefully came to Vater Shucks.
If you visit Jacob Shook's house today, you can see a handwritten receipt for the purchase of several slaves. After he died in 1837 his house and farmland was purchased by members of the Welch family, who together had about 150 slaves. I mention this to illustrate that slavery was considered economically 'necessary' and normalized by this part of white Methodism as God's Will for Africans. Even Asbury failed to object, though he denounced slavery and pleaded for abolition with George Washington.
In Clyde and throughout Haywood County the heritage of slavery is almost totally invisible today. The slave cabins are long gone, as are the descendants of slaves who worked the plantations. The county is about 96% white, 1% black, and only 1/2% Native American.
The cultural reality of white male dominance is so pervasive, normalized, and unconsciously internalized that residents and visitors alike don't even think about it. When they visit nearby Cherokee, NC, they focus more on the lure of the casino than on the hidden-in-plain-sight reality of 'ethnic cleansing' that forced the vast majority of the Cherokee Nation to endure a death march to Oklahoma. Even this tragic history has been reduced to summer theatre for tourists.
Since 1972 United Methodist clergy have been required to enforce the standards of 'heteronormativity' to eliminate what Aquinas called the 'vice against nature', which includes any and every sexual act except for heterosexual intercourse in the famous missionary position (reserved exclusively for those legally and heterosexually married, of course!). Aquinas seems unconcerned with the fact that 70% of women can't orgasm that way. Perhaps he was concerned only that women did their procreative duty, whether they enjoyed it or not.
Reserving 'holy matrimony' for certain classes of people makes everybody else's sexuality second class, promoting 'sexual cleansing' in the church.
The Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism of the Methodist system leads to a Taliban concept of justice that inevitably exacts severe punishment of violators. Methodists exemplify the tyranny of majority rule with zero tolerance for minority views within the system.
If your upcoming wedding would be welcomed in a Methodist Church, that's because you are enjoying hetero privilege (and probably taking it for granted).
White male supremacy takes sexual privileging for granted. If you owned slaves, you could totally control and manipulate them sexually. You could have sexual intercourse and father 'illegitimate' children with people of color who were coerced or bullied, or who used your sexual interest to acquire personal benefits. Often family members could not protect them. You could invoke 'Racial Purity' to constrain and manipulate white women sexually. You could demand 'monogamy' from your wife to control her sexual interest in other people, while you ignored that standard in your own behavior.
Now the likes of Maxie Dunham and Fred Phelps simply reflect the mindset of white male sexual privilege. Since Loving vs. Virginia they can't get away with railing against 'miscegenation.' Now their last refuge is their obsession with the evil of non-procreative sexual coupling symbolized in 'ceremonies of homosexual union.'
And yet John Epps calls this a "non-issue." I say: wake up and smell the coffee, John!
Marshall Jones
From: JOHN L. EPPS <<mailto:jlepps@pc.jaring.my>jlepps@pc.jaring.my> To: W. J. <<mailto:synergi@yahoo.com>synergi@yahoo.com> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas
Thanks Marshall.
When I was at Perkins, Bill McElvaney, Bill Holmes, and the late Will Bailey were the three Dallas "role models" for the forward-looking theologs. All three were students of Joe. It's good to see he's still pushing the envelope, though it's a shame that this non-issue takes so much energy.
Quoting "W. J." <<mailto:synergi@yahoo.com>synergi@yahoo.com>:
more Methodist news from Texas:
Marshall
---------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail has been sent via JARING webmail at <http://www.jaring.my/>http://www.jaring.my
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net>OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net>OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Just my two cents worth. My local United Methodist church has a new pastor coming in July. Both she (the new one) and the old one (a guy) personally support the "reconciling ministry." (UM code for being welcoming to LGBTQ). But neither will act in the congregation. The new clergy says that the only time a congregation will work for that is if there are gay people in the congregation who lead the movement. Maybe so, maybe not. I think they just fear a split in the congregation. There are three or four churches in the Denver District that claim reconciling status publicly. I hope my beloved Methodists can join the 21st century, and soon, but I fear a split. Those who disagree with the discipline have loud voices. Karen Bueno -----Original Message----- From: jlepps@pc.jaring.my via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: George Holcombe <grholcombe@gmail.com> Cc: ICA/OE List Serves <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sat, Jun 14, 2014 3:54 pm Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas Thanks for your thoughtful and historical response, Marshall. Yourcomment, "I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's aHUGE distraction from the REAL missional issues that the church should bestruggling to address" is the only point I was attempting to make.Certainly I agree that same sex marriages should be honored in UnitedMethodism. It would be a shame for the church to split over this. It has forced me to distinguish between the Church as institution and theChurch as movement. The former exists to enable the latter, but often itlags behind. It even tends to function to perpetuate itself rather thanits cause. When that happens, it's due for a reform. It may even be thatthe institutional church is wrestling with the major issue ofaccommodating diversity that affects societies around the world. If it'sat that level, then maybe this is not a non-issue. Thanks for bringing upthis level of the conversation. The coffee smells like Illy latte! John At 03:02 PM 6/14/2014, George Holcombe wrote: Dear Marshall, I don�t believeJohn is "talking out of school.� I�m sure he can speak forhimself, but LBGT for our society is a non-issue, it�s over. Gaymarriage will be the law of the land. Every day the LBGT communityis gaining ground. For the younger generation it�s anon-issue. The UMC is just running into a stone wall. Itwould be much better if they let loose of the prejudice and got on withthe business at hand. Climate Change, poverty, corptocracy, just toname a few need action. I am glad to see our Board of Pensionsremoving investments from companies that support Israel, but there�s lotsmore stuff we need to be about. We have a good bunch of local clergy who stand with us who�ve signed thepledge. The �Conservatives� (although I�m not sure that�s thecorrect appellation) are going to scream their heads off, but time ismarching on. For the UMC a real LGBT issue is going to be how wesupport the gays in Africa and elsewhere and deal with a falseinterpretation of scripture, discipline and tradition that leads tohatred and violence. It�s happening. Reality is staring us in the face. George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 grholcombe@gmail.com "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is nopower greater than a community discovering what it caresabout." Margaret Wheatley On Jun 14, 2014, at 3:01 PM, W. J. via OE<oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: George Holcombe is one of theTexas 'rebels' Marshall Jones 10Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings of Same-SexCouples 10Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings ... Even though their denomination's policy officially prohibits clergy fromofficiating at the wedding of any same-sex couple at the risk of losingtheir ordination, t... View onunitedmethod... Preview by Yahoo On Saturday, June 14, 2014 12:38 PM, W. J. via OE<oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Methodism seems to be teetering on the brink of rebellion, confrontation,and schism.You can follow the rapid escalation of Methodist conflict inthe following articles: Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage Evan as more states legalize gay marriage, United Methodist leadersappear at an impasse. View on www.usatoda... Preview by Yahoo http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2014-03/time-split http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/08/conservative-church-leaders-co... http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/02/conversation-good-newss-tom-la... http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/01/good-news-releases-statement-c... In the light of the current 'conversation' in Methodist circles citedabove, I find John Epps' characterization of the key conflict over theDiscipline as a "non-issue" very puzzling. If I were a betting man, I'd bet about 50 million bucks that BillMcElvaney, Tom Ogletree, and Bishops McLee, Johnson, and Talbert (as wellas many others) would NOT call 'ceremonies of homosexual union' a"non-issue" for United Methodists. I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's a HUGE distractionfrom the REAL missional issues that the church should be struggling toaddress. But when I look through the keyhole of this so-called"non-issue" that threatens denominational schism (similar tothe schism over slavery in 1844), what I see looming are the VERY SAMEtheological/cultural issues that define the cultural rift (I accidentallytyped 'risk'--there's that too!) with the Tea Party radical rightwing. The 'Good News' contingent is going whole hog to use Legalism,Literalism, and Authoritarianism to defrock noncompliant Methodistclergy, retired seminary presidents, and bishops. This is aboutinstilling fear in bishops and clergy alike by using the Discipline tocrack down on dissenters. So with all respect due to John, I cannot call this a"non-issue". Our profound cultural and theological biases around 'heteronormativity'are as much of a HUGE issue as our biases around the racial inferiorityof people of color and female submission to male dominance (not tomention the economic imperialism of the "1%"). I grew up in what had been the Methodist Episcopal Church, South untilthe year before I was born. That geographic contingent in reunitedMethodism retained its political and cultural clout as the lily-whiteSoutheastern Jurisdiction until the Central Jurisdiction was dissolved in1968 as a condition of union with the EUB's. I mention this ancient history to point out that the cultural legacyenshrined in the 'Good News' version of conservative southern Methodismis the legacy of slavery and 'White Supremacy' that their white maleMethodist ancestors fought and died to preserve forever. Bishop Francis Asbury (whose name is legendary to this day in westernNorth Carolina) wrote in his journal that on 11/30/1810 he spent thenight (and very likely preached in the attic chapel) in the house JacobShook built in 1795 in what is now Clyde, NC near Lake Junaluska. Friday our troubles began at a foaming, roaring stream, which hid therocks. At Catahouche I walked over a log, but then O the mountains-height after height and five miles over! After crossing many streams andafter losing ourselves in the woods for a time, about 9 o'clock at nightwe gratefully came to Vater Shucks. If you visit Jacob Shook's house today, you can see a handwrittenreceipt for the purchase of several slaves. After he died in 1837 hishouse and farmland was purchased by members of the Welch family, whotogether had about 150 slaves. I mention this to illustrate that slaverywas considered economically 'necessary' and normalized by this part ofwhite Methodism as God's Will for Africans. Even Asbury failed to object,though he denounced slavery and pleaded for abolition with GeorgeWashington. In Clyde and throughout Haywood County the heritage of slavery is almosttotally invisible today. The slave cabins are long gone, as are thedescendants of slaves who worked the plantations. The county is about 96%white, 1% black, and only 1/2% Native American. The cultural reality of white male dominance is so pervasive, normalized,and unconsciously internalized that residents and visitors alike don'teven think about it. When they visit nearby Cherokee, NC, they focus moreon the lure of the casino than on the hidden-in-plain-sight reality of'ethnic cleansing' that forced the vast majority of the Cherokee Nationto endure a death march to Oklahoma. Even this tragic history has beenreduced to summer theatre for tourists. Since 1972 United Methodist clergy have been required to enforce thestandards of 'heteronormativity' to eliminate what Aquinas called the'vice against nature', which includes any and every sexual act except forheterosexual intercourse in the famous missionary position (reservedexclusively for those legally and heterosexually married, of course!).Aquinas seems unconcerned with the fact that 70% of women can't orgasmthat way. Perhaps he was concerned only that women did their procreativeduty, whether they enjoyed it or not. Reserving 'holy matrimony' for certain classes of people makes everybodyelse's sexuality second class, promoting 'sexual cleansing' in thechurch. The Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism of the Methodist systemleads to a Taliban concept of justice that inevitably exacts severepunishment of violators. Methodists exemplify the tyranny of majorityrule with zero tolerance for minority views within the system. If your upcoming wedding would be welcomed in a Methodist Church, that'sbecause you are enjoying hetero privilege (and probably taking it forgranted). White male supremacy takes sexual privileging for granted. If you ownedslaves, you could totally control and manipulate them sexually. You couldhave sexual intercourse and father 'illegitimate' children with people ofcolor who were coerced or bullied, or who used your sexual interest toacquire personal benefits. Often family members could not protect them.You could invoke 'Racial Purity' to constrain and manipulate white womensexually. You could demand 'monogamy' from your wife to control hersexual interest in other people, while you ignored that standard in yourown behavior. Now the likes of Maxie Dunham and Fred Phelps simply reflect the mindsetof white male sexual privilege. Since Loving vs. Virginia they can't getaway with railing against 'miscegenation.' Now their last refuge is theirobsession with the evil of non-procreative sexual coupling symbolized in'ceremonies of homosexual union.' And yet John Epps calls this a "non-issue." I say: wake up andsmell the coffee, John! Marshall Jones From: JOHN L. EPPS<jlepps@pc.jaring.my> To: W. J.<synergi@yahoo.com> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas Thanks Marshall. When I was at Perkins, Bill McElvaney, Bill Holmes, and the lateWill Bailey were the three Dallas "role models" for theforward-looking theologs. All three were students of Joe. It's good to see he'sstill pushing the envelope, though it's a shame that this non-issue takesso much energy. Quoting "W. J."<synergi@yahoo.com>:
more Methodist news from Texas:
http://um-insight.net/issues-section/supervisory-response-under-way-for-rev-...
Marshall
---------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail has been sent via JARING webmail athttp://www.jaring.my _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Marshall, In Ontario, Canada, we just elected a lesbian grandmother as the province's Premier, soundly defeating the Canadian version of the Tea Party. It was a non-issue. Lot's still to do across the rest of the planet: Russia, Africa, China, India et al. but not Europe. Hugs, Ken Sent from my iPad
On Jun 14, 2014, at 5:02 PM, George Holcombe via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dear Marshall, I don’t believe John is "talking out of school.” I’m sure he can speak for himself, but LBGT for our society is a non-issue, it’s over. Gay marriage will be the law of the land. Every day the LBGT community is gaining ground. For the younger generation it’s a non-issue. The UMC is just running into a stone wall. It would be much better if they let loose of the prejudice and got on with the business at hand. Climate Change, poverty, corptocracy, just to name a few need action. I am glad to see our Board of Pensions removing investments from companies that support Israel, but there’s lots more stuff we need to be about.
We have a good bunch of local clergy who stand with us who’ve signed the pledge. The “Conservatives” (although I’m not sure that’s the correct appellation) are going to scream their heads off, but time is marching on. For the UMC a real LGBT issue is going to be how we support the gays in Africa and elsewhere and deal with a false interpretation of scripture, discipline and tradition that leads to hatred and violence.
It’s happening. Reality is staring us in the face.
George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 grholcombe@gmail.com
"Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Jun 14, 2014, at 3:01 PM, W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
George Holcombe is one of the Texas 'rebels' Marshall Jones 10 Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings of Same-Sex Couples
10 Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings ... Even though their denomination's policy officially prohibits clergy from officiating at the wedding of any same-sex couple at the risk of losing their ordination, t... View on unitedmethod... Preview by Yahoo
On Saturday, June 14, 2014 12:38 PM, W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Methodism seems to be teetering on the brink of rebellion, confrontation, and schism.You can follow the rapid escalation of Methodist conflict in the following articles:
Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage
Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage Evan as more states legalize gay marriage, United Methodist leaders appear at an impasse. View on www.usatoda... Preview by Yahoo
http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2014-03/time-split http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/08/conservative-church-leaders-co... http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/02/conversation-good-newss-tom-la... http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/01/good-news-releases-statement-c...
In the light of the current 'conversation' in Methodist circles cited above, I find John Epps' characterization of the key conflict over the Discipline as a "non-issue" very puzzling.
If I were a betting man, I'd bet about 50 million bucks that Bill McElvaney, Tom Ogletree, and Bishops McLee, Johnson, and Talbert (as well as many others) would NOT call 'ceremonies of homosexual union' a "non-issue" for United Methodists.
I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's a HUGE distraction from the REAL missional issues that the church should be struggling to address.
But when I look through the keyhole of this so-called "non-issue" that threatens denominational schism (similar to the schism over slavery in 1844), what I see looming are the VERY SAME theological/cultural issues that define the cultural rift (I accidentally typed 'risk'--there's that too!) with the Tea Party radical right wing.
The 'Good News' contingent is going whole hog to use Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism to defrock noncompliant Methodist clergy, retired seminary presidents, and bishops. This is about instilling fear in bishops and clergy alike by using the Discipline to crack down on dissenters.
So with all respect due to John, I cannot call this a "non-issue".
Our profound cultural and theological biases around 'heteronormativity' are as much of a HUGE issue as our biases around the racial inferiority of people of color and female submission to male dominance (not to mention the economic imperialism of the "1%").
I grew up in what had been the Methodist Episcopal Church, South until the year before I was born. That geographic contingent in reunited Methodism retained its political and cultural clout as the lily-white Southeastern Jurisdiction until the Central Jurisdiction was dissolved in 1968 as a condition of union with the EUB's.
I mention this ancient history to point out that the cultural legacy enshrined in the 'Good News' version of conservative southern Methodism is the legacy of slavery and 'White Supremacy' that their white male Methodist ancestors fought and died to preserve forever.
Bishop Francis Asbury (whose name is legendary to this day in western North Carolina) wrote in his journal that on 11/30/1810 he spent the night (and very likely preached in the attic chapel) in the house Jacob Shook built in 1795 in what is now Clyde, NC near Lake Junaluska. Friday our troubles began at a foaming, roaring stream, which hid the rocks. At Catahouche I walked over a log, but then O the mountains- height after height and five miles over! After crossing many streams and after losing ourselves in the woods for a time, about 9 o'clock at night we gratefully came to Vater Shucks. If you visit Jacob Shook's house today, you can see a handwritten receipt for the purchase of several slaves. After he died in 1837 his house and farmland was purchased by members of the Welch family, who together had about 150 slaves. I mention this to illustrate that slavery was considered economically 'necessary' and normalized by this part of white Methodism as God's Will for Africans. Even Asbury failed to object, though he denounced slavery and pleaded for abolition with George Washington.
In Clyde and throughout Haywood County the heritage of slavery is almost totally invisible today. The slave cabins are long gone, as are the descendants of slaves who worked the plantations. The county is about 96% white, 1% black, and only 1/2% Native American.
The cultural reality of white male dominance is so pervasive, normalized, and unconsciously internalized that residents and visitors alike don't even think about it. When they visit nearby Cherokee, NC, they focus more on the lure of the casino than on the hidden-in-plain-sight reality of 'ethnic cleansing' that forced the vast majority of the Cherokee Nation to endure a death march to Oklahoma. Even this tragic history has been reduced to summer theatre for tourists.
Since 1972 United Methodist clergy have been required to enforce the standards of 'heteronormativity' to eliminate what Aquinas called the 'vice against nature', which includes any and every sexual act except for heterosexual intercourse in the famous missionary position (reserved exclusively for those legally and heterosexually married, of course!). Aquinas seems unconcerned with the fact that 70% of women can't orgasm that way. Perhaps he was concerned only that women did their procreative duty, whether they enjoyed it or not.
Reserving 'holy matrimony' for certain classes of people makes everybody else's sexuality second class, promoting 'sexual cleansing' in the church.
The Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism of the Methodist system leads to a Taliban concept of justice that inevitably exacts severe punishment of violators. Methodists exemplify the tyranny of majority rule with zero tolerance for minority views within the system.
If your upcoming wedding would be welcomed in a Methodist Church, that's because you are enjoying hetero privilege (and probably taking it for granted).
White male supremacy takes sexual privileging for granted. If you owned slaves, you could totally control and manipulate them sexually. You could have sexual intercourse and father 'illegitimate' children with people of color who were coerced or bullied, or who used your sexual interest to acquire personal benefits. Often family members could not protect them. You could invoke 'Racial Purity' to constrain and manipulate white women sexually. You could demand 'monogamy' from your wife to control her sexual interest in other people, while you ignored that standard in your own behavior.
Now the likes of Maxie Dunham and Fred Phelps simply reflect the mindset of white male sexual privilege. Since Loving vs. Virginia they can't get away with railing against 'miscegenation.' Now their last refuge is their obsession with the evil of non-procreative sexual coupling symbolized in 'ceremonies of homosexual union.'
And yet John Epps calls this a "non-issue." I say: wake up and smell the coffee, John!
Marshall Jones From: JOHN L. EPPS <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> To: W. J. <synergi@yahoo.com> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas
Thanks Marshall.
When I was at Perkins, Bill McElvaney, Bill Holmes, and the late Will Bailey were the three Dallas "role models" for the forward-looking theologs. All three were students of Joe. It's good to see he's still pushing the envelope, though it's a shame that this non-issue takes so much energy.
Quoting "W. J." <synergi@yahoo.com>:
more Methodist news from Texas:
http://um-insight.net/issues-section/supervisory-response-under-way-for-rev-...
Marshall
---------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail has been sent via JARING webmail at http://www.jaring.my
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Let's face it, Texas is weird. For every George Holcombe in Austin, there's a hundred clones of the Rick Perry mindset. The evangelical counterculture is alive and well among 'United' Methodists, but they're a stubborn, shrinking, aging bunch of white guys. I challenge any Methodist clergywoman or black clergyman to dare to parrot the blathering of the likes of Bishop Harry R. Jackson Jr. But a bunch of 80 Methodist evangelicals--most unwilling to self-identify as schismatics (= charismatics)--are pushing hard for an 'amicable' split in the denomination (translation: "we get to take our assets with us"). Marshall Jones Amicable breakup of UMC needed, pastor group says - The United Methodist Church Amicable breakup of UMC needed, pastor group says - T... A group of pastors says it's time to consider breaking up the United Methodist Church, due to divisions over homosexuality and other issues. View on www.umc.org Preview by Yahoo Harry Jackson: Point Man for the Wedge Strategy Harry Jackson: Point Man for the Wedge Strategy A report by People for the American Way Foundation examining the political activities of Bishop Harry Jackson, who has emerged as the leading African American v... View on www.pfaw.org Preview by Yahoo Red America’s Anti-Gay Backlash Red America’s Anti-Gay Backlash Gay rights may be trending upward everywhere, but it in conservative America, things are moving very slowly—and sparking a ferocious reaction. View on www.thedail... Preview by Yahoo On Saturday, June 14, 2014 8:58 PM, Ken Fisher <hkf232@gmail.com> wrote: Marshall, In Ontario, Canada, we just elected a lesbian grandmother as the province's Premier, soundly defeating the Canadian version of the Tea Party. It was a non-issue. Lot's still to do across the rest of the planet: Russia, Africa, China, India et al. but not Europe. Hugs, Ken Sent from my iPad On Jun 14, 2014, at 5:02 PM, George Holcombe via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Dear Marshall, I don’t believe John is "talking out of school.” I’m sure he can speak for himself, but LBGT for our society is a non-issue, it’s over. Gay marriage will be the law of the land. Every day the LBGT community is gaining ground. For the younger generation it’s a non-issue. The UMC is just running into a stone wall. It would be much better if they let loose of the prejudice and got on with the business at hand. Climate Change, poverty, corptocracy, just to name a few need action. I am glad to see our Board of Pensions removing investments from companies that support Israel, but there’s lots more stuff we need to be about. We have a good bunch of local clergy who stand with us who’ve signed the pledge. The “Conservatives” (although I’m not sure that’s the correct appellation) are going to scream their heads off, but time is marching on. For the UMC a real LGBT issue is going to be how we support the gays in Africa and elsewhere and deal with a false interpretation of scripture, discipline and tradition that leads to hatred and violence. It’s happening. Reality is staring us in the face. George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 grholcombe@gmail.com "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley On Jun 14, 2014, at 3:01 PM, W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: George Holcombe is one of the Texas 'rebels'
Marshall Jones 10 Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings of Same-Sex Couples
10 Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings ... Even though their denomination's policy officially prohibits clergy from officiating at the wedding of any same-sex couple at the risk of losing their ordination, t... View on unitedmethod... Preview by Yahoo
On Saturday, June 14, 2014 12:38 PM, W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Methodism seems to be teetering on the brink of rebellion, confrontation, and schism.You can follow the rapid escalation of Methodist conflict in the following articles:
Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage
Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage Evan as more states legalize gay marriage, United Methodist leaders appear at an impasse. View on www.usatoda... Preview by Yahoo http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2014-03/time-split
http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/08/conservative-church-leaders-co... http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/02/conversation-good-newss-tom-la... http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/01/good-news-releases-statement-c...
In the light of the current 'conversation' in Methodist circles cited above, I find John Epps' characterization of the key conflict over the Discipline as a "non-issue" very puzzling.
If I were a betting man, I'd bet about 50 million bucks that Bill McElvaney, Tom Ogletree, and Bishops McLee, Johnson, and Talbert (as well as many others) would NOT call 'ceremonies of homosexual union' a "non-issue" for United Methodists.
I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's a HUGE distraction from the REAL missional issues that the church should be struggling to address.
But when I look through the keyhole of this so-called "non-issue" that threatens denominational schism (similar to the schism over slavery in 1844), what I see looming are the VERY SAME theological/cultural issues that define the cultural rift (I accidentally typed 'risk'--there's that too!) with the Tea Party radical right wing.
The 'Good News' contingent is going whole hog to use Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism to defrock noncompliant Methodist clergy, retired seminary presidents, and bishops. This is about instilling fear in bishops and clergy alike by using the Discipline to crack down on dissenters.
So with all respect due to John, I cannot call this a "non-issue".
Our profound cultural and theological biases around 'heteronormativity' are as much of a HUGE issue as our biases around the racial inferiority of people of color and female submission to male dominance (not to mention the economic imperialism of the "1%").
I grew up in what had been the Methodist Episcopal Church, South until the year before I was born. That geographic contingent in reunited Methodism retained its political and cultural clout as the lily-white Southeastern Jurisdiction until the Central Jurisdiction was dissolved in 1968 as a condition of union with the EUB's.
I mention this ancient history to point out that the cultural legacy enshrined in the 'Good News' version of conservative southern Methodism is the legacy of slavery and 'White Supremacy' that their white male Methodist ancestors fought and died to preserve forever.
Bishop Francis Asbury (whose name is legendary to this day in western North Carolina) wrote in his journal that on 11/30/1810 he spent the night (and very likely preached in the attic chapel) in the house Jacob Shook built in 1795 in what is now Clyde, NC near Lake Junaluska. Friday our troubles began at a foaming, roaring stream, which hid the rocks. At Catahouche I walked over a log, but then O the mountains- height after height and five miles over! After crossing many streams and after losing ourselves in the woods for a time, about 9 o'clock at night we gratefully came to Vater Shucks. If you visit Jacob Shook's house today, you can see a handwritten receipt for the purchase of several slaves. After he died in 1837 his house and farmland was purchased by members of the Welch family, who together had about 150 slaves. I mention this to illustrate that slavery was considered economically 'necessary' and normalized by this part of white Methodism as God's Will for Africans. Even Asbury failed to object, though he denounced slavery and pleaded for abolition with George Washington.
In Clyde and throughout Haywood County the heritage of slavery is almost totally invisible today. The slave cabins are long gone, as are the descendants of slaves who worked the plantations. The county is about 96% white, 1% black, and only 1/2% Native American.
The cultural reality of white male dominance is so pervasive, normalized, and unconsciously internalized that residents and visitors alike don't even think about it. When they visit nearby Cherokee, NC, they focus more on the lure of the casino than on the hidden-in-plain-sight reality of 'ethnic cleansing' that forced the vast majority of the Cherokee Nation to endure a death march to Oklahoma. Even this tragic history has been reduced to summer theatre for tourists.
Since 1972 United Methodist clergy have been required to enforce the standards of 'heteronormativity' to eliminate what Aquinas called the 'vice against nature', which includes any and every sexual act except for heterosexual intercourse in the famous missionary position (reserved exclusively for those legally and heterosexually married, of course!). Aquinas seems unconcerned with the fact that 70% of women can't orgasm that way. Perhaps he was concerned only that women did their procreative duty, whether they enjoyed it or not.
Reserving 'holy matrimony' for certain classes of people makes everybody else's sexuality second class, promoting 'sexual cleansing' in the church.
The Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism of the Methodist system leads to a Taliban concept of justice that inevitably exacts severe punishment of violators. Methodists exemplify the tyranny of majority rule with zero tolerance for minority views within the system.
If your upcoming wedding would be welcomed in a Methodist Church, that's because you are enjoying hetero privilege (and probably taking it for granted).
White male supremacy takes sexual privileging for granted. If you owned slaves, you could totally control and manipulate them sexually. You could have sexual intercourse and father 'illegitimate' children with people of color who were coerced or bullied, or who used your sexual interest to acquire personal benefits. Often family members could not protect them. You could invoke 'Racial Purity' to constrain and manipulate white women sexually. You could demand 'monogamy' from your wife to control her sexual interest in other people, while you ignored that standard in your own behavior.
Now the likes of Maxie Dunham and Fred Phelps simply reflect the mindset of white male sexual privilege. Since Loving vs. Virginia they can't get away with railing against 'miscegenation.' Now their last refuge is their obsession with the evil of non-procreative sexual coupling symbolized in 'ceremonies of homosexual union.'
And yet John Epps calls this a "non-issue." I say: wake up and smell the coffee, John!
Marshall Jones
________________________________ From: JOHN L. EPPS <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> To: W. J. <synergi@yahoo.com> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas
Thanks Marshall.
When I was at Perkins, Bill McElvaney, Bill Holmes, and the late Will Bailey were the three Dallas "role models" for the forward-looking theologs. All three were students of Joe. It's good to see he's still pushing the envelope, though it's a shame that this non-issue takes so much energy.
Quoting "W. J." <synergi@yahoo.com>:
more Methodist news from Texas:
http://um-insight.net/issues-section/supervisory-response-under-way-for-rev-...
Marshall
---------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail has been sent via JARING webmail at http://www.jaring.my
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________
OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
participants (5)
-
George Holcombe via OE -
jlepps＠pc.jaring.my via OE
-
Karenbueno via OE
-
Ken Fisher via OE
-
W. J. via OE