Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues, Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.[image: Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg] https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage? Bill Schlesinger Project Vida 3607 Rivera Avenue El Paso, TX 79905 (915) 490-6148 Cell On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues,
Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.[image: Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg]
https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
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HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’ Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process. I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege. Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering. Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep. FWIW. Bill From: Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage? Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder. Randy Williams On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote: Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage? Bill Schlesinger Project Vida 3607 Rivera Avenue El Paso, TX 79905 (915) 490-6148 Cell On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote: Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues, Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you. <Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg> https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r... <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV> &utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <https://www.google.com/url?q=http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw0b0LGg7Xo4ek_ub-G1aLYm> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or saving them. Thank you_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net -- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or saving them. Thank you
What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the speciman who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process. Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation? I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today. And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage. Cheryl Hood On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process.
I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege.
Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep.
FWIW.
Bill
*From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com> *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder.
Randy Williams
On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 490-6148 Cell
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues,
Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
<Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV>
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CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or saving them. Thank you _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
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This is an interesting intellectual, hypothetical, philosophical discussion. If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me. Shelley Hahn On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the speciman who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.
Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation?
I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today.
And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage.
Cheryl Hood
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process.
I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege.
Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep.
FWIW.
Bill
*From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com> *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder.
Randy Williams
On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
El Paso, TX 79905 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
(915) 490-6148 Cell
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues,
Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
<Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV>
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CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or saving them. Thank you _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
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Dear Shelley, OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior. I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth. But also appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly would not have been available to him at that youthful time. For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member, was charged by JWM to write the Polity Document. And in that work, we sifted through our collective living experience to name those 24. Who knows, there may have been more? What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear: this was not anywhere close to being acceptable. I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India. But I am horrified that you experienced that. Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest. With love and respect, Marilyn
On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
This is an interesting intellectual, hypothetical, philosophical discussion.
If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.
Shelley Hahn
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the speciman who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.
Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation?
I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today.
And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage.
Cheryl Hood
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process.
I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege.
Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep.
FWIW.
Bill
From: Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com <mailto:randycw1938@gmail.com>> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Cc: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net <mailto:w.schlesinger@pvida.net>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder.
Randy Williams
On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g> El Paso, TX 79905 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g> (915) 490-6148 Cell
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues,
Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
<Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV> _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <https://www.google.com/url?q=http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw0b0LGg7Xo4ek_ub-G1aLYm>
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Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you experienced. I believe you. What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long, many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of them. I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we were immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t ask the hard questions soon enough. I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability, not just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more fully now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness. Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here. Don Bushman 828-292-9696 On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dear Shelley,
OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior.
I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth. But also appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly would not have been available to him at that youthful time.
For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member, was charged by JWM to write the Polity Document. And in that work, we sifted through our collective living experience to name those 24. Who knows, there may have been more?
What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear: *this was not anywhere close to being acceptable.*
I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India. But *I am horrified that you experienced that.*
Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest.
With love and respect,
Marilyn
On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
This is an interesting intellectual, hypothetical, philosophical discussion.
If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.
Shelley Hahn
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the speciman who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.
Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation?
I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today.
And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage.
Cheryl Hood
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process.
I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege.
Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep.
FWIW.
Bill
*From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com> *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder.
Randy Williams
On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
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On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues,
Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
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Thank you, Don! Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:10:05 PM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Don Bushman <onedonbushman@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage? Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you experienced. I believe you. What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long, many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of them. I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we were immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t ask the hard questions soon enough. I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability, not just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more fully now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness. Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here. Don Bushman [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4zOIu3LEC6MFTWTu0KY7E502yfIl...] [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4wgIOy7oWy3z_VRwzsBpODEX3NNQ...] 828-292-9696 On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Dear Shelley, OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior. I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth. But also appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly would not have been available to him at that youthful time. For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member, was charged by JWM to write the Polity Document. And in that work, we sifted through our collective living experience to name those 24. Who knows, there may have been more? What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear: this was not anywhere close to being acceptable. I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India. But I am horrified that you experienced that. Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest. With love and respect, Marilyn On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: This is an interesting intellectual, hypothetical, philosophical discussion. If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me. Shelley Hahn On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the speciman who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process. Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation? I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today. And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage. Cheryl Hood On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’ Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process. I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege. Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering. Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep. FWIW. Bill From: Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com<mailto:randycw1938@gmail.com>> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Cc: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net<mailto:w.schlesinger@pvida.net>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage? Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder. Randy Williams On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage? Bill Schlesinger Project Vida 3607 Rivera Avenue<https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g> El Paso, TX 79905<https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g> (915) 490-6148 Cell On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues, Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you. <Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg> https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false<https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV> _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net<https://www.google.com/url?q=http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw0b0LGg7Xo4ek_ub-G1aLYm> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or saving them. Thank you_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or saving them. Thank you_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
I am saddened by your report, Shelly. I know you had to endure more than any kid should. You needed to be protected but got thrown into harm's Way. I have to say that many of us, me included, we're so busy in the day-to-day work that we did not know what was going on. My first clue was listening to some of the teenagers. Who were meandering On Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 8:34 AM Blase Sands via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Thank you, Don!
Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ------------------------------ *From:* OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Sent:* Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:10:05 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Don Bushman <onedonbushman@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you experienced. I believe you.
What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long, many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of them.
I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we were immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t ask the hard questions soon enough.
I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability, not just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more fully now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness.
Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here.
Don Bushman
828-292-9696
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dear Shelley,
OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior.
I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth. But also appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly would not have been available to him at that youthful time.
For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member, was charged by JWM to write the Polity Document. And in that work, we sifted through our collective living experience to name those 24. Who knows, there may have been more?
What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear: *this was not anywhere close to being acceptable.*
I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India. But *I am horrified that you experienced that.*
Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest.
With love and respect,
Marilyn
On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
This is an interesting intellectual, hypothetical, philosophical discussion.
If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.
Shelley Hahn
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the speciman who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.
Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation?
I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today.
And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage.
Cheryl Hood
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process.
I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege.
Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep.
FWIW.
Bill
*From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com> *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder.
Randy Williams
On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
El Paso, TX 79905 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
(915) 490-6148 Cell
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues,
Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
<Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV>
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Through the building. I realized they were angry and that they thought their parents dumped them. When I was assigned overseas with my three kids, I made the decision that they would never go into the student house. My wife had the opposite opinion and although I won, my wife never forgave me. I did not have the information that you shared. You have brought to mind my own journey and I realize how courageous you are. I see you as a person of high integrity. On Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 8:57 AM Ed Feldmanis <edfeldmanis@gmail.com> wrote:
I am saddened by your report, Shelly. I know you had to endure more than any kid should. You needed to be protected but got thrown into harm's Way. I have to say that many of us, me included, we're so busy in the day-to-day work that we did not know what was going on. My first clue was listening to some of the teenagers. Who were meandering
On Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 8:34 AM Blase Sands via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Thank you, Don!
Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ------------------------------ *From:* OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Sent:* Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:10:05 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Don Bushman <onedonbushman@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you experienced. I believe you.
What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long, many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of them.
I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we were immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t ask the hard questions soon enough.
I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability, not just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more fully now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness.
Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here.
Don Bushman
828-292-9696
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dear Shelley,
OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior.
I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth. But also appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly would not have been available to him at that youthful time.
For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member, was charged by JWM to write the Polity Document. And in that work, we sifted through our collective living experience to name those 24. Who knows, there may have been more?
What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear: *this was not anywhere close to being acceptable.*
I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India. But *I am horrified that you experienced that.*
Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest.
With love and respect,
Marilyn
On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
This is an interesting intellectual, hypothetical, philosophical discussion.
If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.
Shelley Hahn
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the speciman who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.
Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation?
I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today.
And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage.
Cheryl Hood
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process.
I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege.
Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep.
FWIW.
Bill
*From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com> *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder.
Randy Williams
On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
El Paso, TX 79905 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
(915) 490-6148 Cell
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues,
Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
<Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV>
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CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or saving them. Thank you _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or saving them. Thank you _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
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Northfield clinic On Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:00 AM Ed Feldmanis via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Through the building. I realized they were angry and that they thought their parents dumped them. When I was assigned overseas with my three kids, I made the decision that they would never go into the student house. My wife had the opposite opinion and although I won, my wife never forgave me. I did not have the information that you shared. You have brought to mind my own journey and I realize how courageous you are. I see you as a person of high integrity.
On Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 8:57 AM Ed Feldmanis <edfeldmanis@gmail.com> wrote:
I am saddened by your report, Shelly. I know you had to endure more than any kid should. You needed to be protected but got thrown into harm's Way. I have to say that many of us, me included, we're so busy in the day-to-day work that we did not know what was going on. My first clue was listening to some of the teenagers. Who were meandering
On Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 8:34 AM Blase Sands via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Thank you, Don!
Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ------------------------------ *From:* OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Sent:* Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:10:05 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Don Bushman <onedonbushman@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you experienced. I believe you.
What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long, many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of them.
I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we were immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t ask the hard questions soon enough.
I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability, not just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more fully now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness.
Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here.
Don Bushman
828-292-9696
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dear Shelley,
OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior.
I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth. But also appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly would not have been available to him at that youthful time.
For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member, was charged by JWM to write the Polity Document. And in that work, we sifted through our collective living experience to name those 24. Who knows, there may have been more?
What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear: *this was not anywhere close to being acceptable.*
I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India. But *I am horrified that you experienced that.*
Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest.
With love and respect,
Marilyn
On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
This is an interesting intellectual, hypothetical, philosophical discussion.
If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.
Shelley Hahn
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the speciman who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.
Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation?
I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today.
And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage.
Cheryl Hood
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process.
I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege.
Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep.
FWIW.
Bill
*From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com> *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder.
Randy Williams
On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
El Paso, TX 79905 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
(915) 490-6148 Cell
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues,
Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
<Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV>
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CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or saving them. Thank you _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
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My son Nathan was in the order for the first two years of his life. One year in New Orleans and one year at Kemper. In New Orleans after he was a few weeks old we found a infant-care facility in a Catholic charity and took him there each day. There were around cribs and there was little programming. During his year at Kemper he was in the pre-school and I believe my then wife Joy was in charge of the pre-school. He is now 53. He has had anger issues and emotional swings. He says he has long had trust issues with me and feels I haven't seen him. He is undergoing therapy and is a few weeks in. He is married and has two children. He is in the midst of mid-life crisis. He began asking me about the Order. He found this article in the NY Times from 1968. https://www.nytimes.com/1968/11/09/archives/new-religious-cult-grows-despite.... It describes EI as a cult. He then found David Marshall's book online and read it. He feels he has found a key to his issues of "abandonment"(?). Unlike other children who grew up and can reflect for better and worse on their experience as EI children, Nate has no direct memories of his time in EI. He keeps pressing me on whether EI was a cult and whether Joe Matthews was of very bad character. In tears he thanks me for leaving the Order in August 1975 when he was almost two. He also read David's blog about whether Good Intentions make up for Collateral damage. I explain to him the good things we did and I also acknowledge the "collateral damage." I acknowledge that the Order had aspects of a cult, though it was not the Moonies or Jim Jones (I don't mention these others because I don't want to associate the Order with them). I think about how psychologists write about the importance of the first two years of life and try to imagine what influence that period had on him. He was never separated from Joy and I and I always thought he was happy in his early years. I tell him about how many adults cared for him and adored him. I know there has been a group for Order Children. I wonder if anyone would be willing and interested in talking to Nate (his nickname is Naechi) about the Order and children in the Order. Herman ------------------------------ *From:* OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Sent:* Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:10:05 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Don Bushman <onedonbushman@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage? Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you experienced. I believe you. What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long, many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of them. I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we were immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t ask the hard questions soon enough. I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability, not just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more fully now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness. Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here. Don Bushman 828-292-9696 On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Dear Shelley, OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior. I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth. But also appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly would not have been available to him at that youthful time. For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member, was charged by JWM to write the Polity Document. And in that work, we sifted through our collective living experience to name those 24. Who knows, there may have been more? What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear: *this was not anywhere close to being acceptable.* I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India. But *I am horrified that you experienced that.* Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest. With love and respect, Marilyn On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: This is an interesting intellectual, hypothetical, philosophical discussion. If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me. Shelley Hahn On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the speciman who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process. Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation? I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today. And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage. Cheryl Hood On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’ Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process. I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege. Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering. Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep. FWIW. Bill *From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com> *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage? Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder. Randy Williams On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage? Bill Schlesinger Project Vida 3607 Rivera Avenue <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g> El Paso, TX 79905 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g> (915) 490-6148 Cell On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues, Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you. <Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg> https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV> _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <https://www.google.com/url?q=http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw0b0LGg7Xo4ek_ub-G1aLYm> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or saving them. Thank you _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or saving them. Thank you _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Herman, Thank you for your heartfelt and vulnerable share with the OE community. Although I've ton a ton of online research about the Order, EI, and ICA, I had never come across this interesting New York Times article. What a revealing gift from your son, albeit under difficult circumstances. I would be happy to speak with Nate if he wants to understand how I came through this process. On a related note for all of us, I recommend a touching interview my wife Kate and I watched last night between Anderson Cooper and Ken Burns about family grief. It's part of a bigger series on grief by Anderson Cooper called "All There Is." < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vluz9IuU010> Both Cooper and Burns lost they fathers at a young age, and have struggled throughout adulthood with grief. My grief of losing my dad when I was a kid was different, because he was still alive, just not available to me me as his child, so I had a chance to resurrect him as an adult in a way that Cooper and Burns could not. I hope you and Nate have a breakthrough as well. But as Ken Burns said in the interview, "the half-life of grief is endless," never truly recovering from the loss, but learning to cope and be healthy. In my opinion, many Order alumni and ICA folks get hung up on whether the Order was a cult or not. Even my my dad's memoir, which he wrote earlier this year before he died, he maintained it was not a cult, but that's because his definition of a cult is killing yourself with poisoned Kool Aid like Jim Jones did with his flock. He thought if he acknowledge it was a cult, then he couldn't review his mentor Joe Mathews anymore. The word cult covers a broad range of unhealthy behaviors, which the Order was definitely practicing, but in my mind, they were not malicious and conscious. And it's equally difficult to conclude that JWM was either good or evil; he was human like the rest of us, with brilliant and flawed parts. I think we can view the Order and JWM with nuanced lenses and conclude "both/and" and not "either/or" regarding its position on the cult spectrum of benign to deadly. Healthy learning for what comes next in our own death/rebirth lives. Grace, Peace, & Love, David Marshall Author of *IRON BOY: Searching for Freedom in a Family Religious Order <https://www.amazon.com/IRON-BOY-Searching-Freedom-Religious/dp/B0FCMMVHDC/>* Substack Article: CAN CULTS STILL DO GOOD WORK: Do Good Intentions & Mission Success Compensate for Collateral Damage? <https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=post%20viewer> Order/EI/ICA Alumnus: 1962-1974 On Sun, Dec 7, 2025 at 12:26 PM Herman Greene via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
My son Nathan was in the order for the first two years of his life. One year in New Orleans and one year at Kemper. In New Orleans after he was a few weeks old we found a infant-care facility in a Catholic charity and took him there each day. There were around cribs and there was little programming. During his year at Kemper he was in the pre-school and I believe my then wife Joy was in charge of the pre-school.
He is now 53. He has had anger issues and emotional swings. He says he has long had trust issues with me and feels I haven't seen him. He is undergoing therapy and is a few weeks in. He is married and has two children. He is in the midst of mid-life crisis.
He began asking me about the Order. He found this article in the NY Times from 1968. https://www.nytimes.com/1968/11/09/archives/new-religious-cult-grows-despite.... It describes EI as a cult. He then found David Marshall's book online and read it. He feels he has found a key to his issues of "abandonment"(?). Unlike other children who grew up and can reflect for better and worse on their experience as EI children, Nate has no direct memories of his time in EI.
He keeps pressing me on whether EI was a cult and whether Joe Matthews was of very bad character. In tears he thanks me for leaving the Order in August 1975 when he was almost two.
He also read David's blog about whether Good Intentions make up for Collateral damage.
I explain to him the good things we did and I also acknowledge the "collateral damage." I acknowledge that the Order had aspects of a cult, though it was not the Moonies or Jim Jones (I don't mention these others because I don't want to associate the Order with them).
I think about how psychologists write about the importance of the first two years of life and try to imagine what influence that period had on him. He was never separated from Joy and I and I always thought he was happy in his early years. I tell him about how many adults cared for him and adored him.
I know there has been a group for Order Children. I wonder if anyone would be willing and interested in talking to Nate (his nickname is Naechi) about the Order and children in the Order.
Herman
------------------------------ *From:* OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Sent:* Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:10:05 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Don Bushman <onedonbushman@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you experienced. I believe you.
What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long, many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of them.
I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we were immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t ask the hard questions soon enough.
I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability, not just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more fully now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness.
Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here.
Don Bushman
828-292-9696
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dear Shelley,
OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior.
I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth. But also appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly would not have been available to him at that youthful time.
For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member, was charged by JWM to write the Polity Document. And in that work, we sifted through our collective living experience to name those 24. Who knows, there may have been more?
What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear: *this was not anywhere close to being acceptable.*
I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India. But *I am horrified that you experienced that.*
Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest.
With love and respect,
Marilyn
On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
This is an interesting intellectual, hypothetical, philosophical discussion.
If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.
Shelley Hahn
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the speciman who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.
Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation?
I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today.
And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage.
Cheryl Hood
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process.
I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege.
Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep.
FWIW.
Bill
*From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com> *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder.
Randy Williams
On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
El Paso, TX 79905 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
(915) 490-6148 Cell
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues,
Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
<Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV>
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I am so moved by the responses I have received, several of which came to my personal email, which is hfgreenenc@gmail.com. Thank you all so much. I was reminded of an article I wrote earlier about my life in the Order. Here it is: All Life Is Broken: Embrace the Future with Vision. <https://1drv.ms/b/c/793bb8de8be9afde/Ed6v6YveuDsggHkBNgEAAAABmYCmi0kjHzV7brxuUosPzw?e=vZLLXK> Herman On Sun, Dec 7, 2025 at 9:35 PM James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
The NYT article seems quite good and mentions stuff I did not know.
Between what is happening with the federal government and all the poly crises being constantly reported, I am going a bit crazy with today and losing my grip on stuff from the 60’s — except when some old moment or song or photo jumps up in my mind. Jim Wiegel
“…the long work of turning their lives into a celebration is not easy. Come and let us talk“.
The Sunflowers. Mary Oliver
On Dec 7, 2025, at 4:25 PM, David Marshall via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Herman,
Thank you for your heartfelt and vulnerable share with the OE community. Although I've ton a ton of online research about the Order, EI, and ICA, I had never come across this interesting New York Times article. What a revealing gift from your son, albeit under difficult circumstances.
I would be happy to speak with Nate if he wants to understand how I came through this process. On a related note for all of us, I recommend a touching interview my wife Kate and I watched last night between Anderson Cooper and Ken Burns about family grief. It's part of a bigger series on grief by Anderson Cooper called "All There Is." < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vluz9IuU010> Both Cooper and Burns lost they fathers at a young age, and have struggled throughout adulthood with grief. My grief of losing my dad when I was a kid was different, because he was still alive, just not available to me me as his child, so I had a chance to resurrect him as an adult in a way that Cooper and Burns could not. I hope you and Nate have a breakthrough as well. But as Ken Burns said in the interview, "the half-life of grief is endless," never truly recovering from the loss, but learning to cope and be healthy.
In my opinion, many Order alumni and ICA folks get hung up on whether the Order was a cult or not. Even my my dad's memoir, which he wrote earlier this year before he died, he maintained it was not a cult, but that's because his definition of a cult is killing yourself with poisoned Kool Aid like Jim Jones did with his flock. He thought if he acknowledge it was a cult, then he couldn't review his mentor Joe Mathews anymore. The word cult covers a broad range of unhealthy behaviors, which the Order was definitely practicing, but in my mind, they were not malicious and conscious. And it's equally difficult to conclude that JWM was either good or evil; he was human like the rest of us, with brilliant and flawed parts. I think we can view the Order and JWM with nuanced lenses and conclude "both/and" and not "either/or" regarding its position on the cult spectrum of benign to deadly. Healthy learning for what comes next in our own death/rebirth lives.
Grace, Peace, & Love,
David Marshall Author of *IRON BOY: Searching for Freedom in a Family Religious Order <https://www.amazon.com/IRON-BOY-Searching-Freedom-Religious/dp/B0FCMMVHDC/>* Substack Article: CAN CULTS STILL DO GOOD WORK: Do Good Intentions & Mission Success Compensate for Collateral Damage? <https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=post%20viewer> Order/EI/ICA Alumnus: 1962-1974
On Sun, Dec 7, 2025 at 12:26 PM Herman Greene via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
My son Nathan was in the order for the first two years of his life. One year in New Orleans and one year at Kemper. In New Orleans after he was a few weeks old we found a infant-care facility in a Catholic charity and took him there each day. There were around cribs and there was little programming. During his year at Kemper he was in the pre-school and I believe my then wife Joy was in charge of the pre-school.
He is now 53. He has had anger issues and emotional swings. He says he has long had trust issues with me and feels I haven't seen him. He is undergoing therapy and is a few weeks in. He is married and has two children. He is in the midst of mid-life crisis.
He began asking me about the Order. He found this article in the NY Times from 1968. https://www.nytimes.com/1968/11/09/archives/new-religious-cult-grows-despite.... It describes EI as a cult. He then found David Marshall's book online and read it. He feels he has found a key to his issues of "abandonment"(?). Unlike other children who grew up and can reflect for better and worse on their experience as EI children, Nate has no direct memories of his time in EI.
He keeps pressing me on whether EI was a cult and whether Joe Matthews was of very bad character. In tears he thanks me for leaving the Order in August 1975 when he was almost two.
He also read David's blog about whether Good Intentions make up for Collateral damage.
I explain to him the good things we did and I also acknowledge the "collateral damage." I acknowledge that the Order had aspects of a cult, though it was not the Moonies or Jim Jones (I don't mention these others because I don't want to associate the Order with them).
I think about how psychologists write about the importance of the first two years of life and try to imagine what influence that period had on him. He was never separated from Joy and I and I always thought he was happy in his early years. I tell him about how many adults cared for him and adored him.
I know there has been a group for Order Children. I wonder if anyone would be willing and interested in talking to Nate (his nickname is Naechi) about the Order and children in the Order.
Herman
------------------------------ *From:* OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Sent:* Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:10:05 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Don Bushman <onedonbushman@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you experienced. I believe you.
What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long, many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of them.
I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we were immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t ask the hard questions soon enough.
I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability, not just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more fully now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness.
Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here.
Don Bushman
828-292-9696
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dear Shelley,
OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior.
I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth. But also appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly would not have been available to him at that youthful time.
For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member, was charged by JWM to write the Polity Document. And in that work, we sifted through our collective living experience to name those 24. Who knows, there may have been more?
What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear: *this was not anywhere close to being acceptable.*
I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India. But *I am horrified that you experienced that.*
Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest.
With love and respect,
Marilyn
On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
This is an interesting intellectual, hypothetical, philosophical discussion.
If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.
Shelley Hahn
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the speciman who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.
Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation?
I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today.
And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage.
Cheryl Hood
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process.
I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege.
Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep.
FWIW.
Bill
*From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com> *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder.
Randy Williams
On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
El Paso, TX 79905 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
(915) 490-6148 Cell
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues,
Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
<Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV>
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This is a slightly edited version of what I sent Herman yesterday. Hi Herman, My son, Ajit, now Shel Sampa was born in Madison Wi. in September ’72. In the spring of ’73, I was assigned to Bombay and did not see him again until 18 months later when Joy Thomas brought him over to Bombay. He was now almost 2 years old. My wife Paige was supposed to bring Ajit and join me in the summer of ’73, when she had completed her engineering degree and U of Wisc. Instead, she decided not to finish. With the money that I had raised for her ticket, she decided to take a 3 months ‘research’ trip through Western Europe, Scandinavia, the Middle East and Afghanistan - before getting to Bombay. She arrived in the fall of ’73. For three months Ajit lived with her parents in Toronto, and then for 6 months lived in the Student House. Barely weeks after he arrived, Paige and I were assigned to separate ITIs for six weeks. Ajit was left in Hyderabad, with A.M. Joseph’s family. By now, he could speak English and some Hindi. He reports that he has a bodily memory of being sexually abused while in Hyderabad. Partly because of Paige’s feminism, wanting to take assignments on her own – strongly blocked by the priors; and my being at odds with Ray Spencer, being lied to and manipulated, we were assigned back to Chicago to get ‘reprogrammed’ with a 3-month assignment to The Academy. In our 16 years in the O:E, we each did 8 years wage earning. After the Academy, I was assigned to Development. At the beginning of Summer ’75, almost 4-year old Ajit was assigned to Summer Camp in Central Wisconsin. In the middle of that 3-month period, I did drive north to see briefly see him at camp. Son Aidan was born in April of ’76 just before we were assigned to Houston. The best times for my sons was in Brussels with as many as 8 kids in the house. Tim & Rose Casswell were superb with children. Ajit, at 53, has had a number of jobs in many different locations. For four years he worked in Mexico starting as an English teacher and ending as a financial consultant to Arthur Anderson working in Central America. Now, he owns and manages 2 properties. Surinder is a special needs elementary school teacher. Ajit suffered significantly from attachment disorder. It took him decades to become effective in his work relations, expecting them to deliver him community that would provide emotional security when that was simply not its purpose. This still impacts him. He is a highly effective and loving father of three boys, two of which are the victims of fetal alcohol syndrome. Aidan, 50 next April, has had many careers. He made a million in high tech, owned a dance troupe and was its lead dancer, and was a world champion gamer (Magic, the Gathering). But the traumas of his childhood drove him into years of therapy. Now he is the director of a School of Therapy in Montreal. Core Energetics is world-wide. John Slicker has been associated with it. Aidan has clients all over, but mainly in Montreal. Both have wives 13 years their junior. Aidan and Laura have 4 children. Shel Sampa and Surinder have a son and two adopted Inuit (Eskimo) boys. They are still trying to have a second child of their own. They all live modestly. Both sons work mostly in French. Yet, as a carry-over from the Brussels House, they live 'communally’. While the families are financially independent, they live across the street from one another in a quiet residential area in Montreal. They hang out with Brian and Marguerite’s (my brother and sister-in-law) kids and their kids. They are a clan. The seven kids of my sons move freely between houses. To a significant degree, they are all co-parented. In that the four parents have spent years in therapy and still freely engage that resource, the children are incredibly sane and healthy. Their motto is generational trauma ends here. With love and hugs, Ken P.S. In the O:E, with respect for confidentiality, I am aware of many children who were sexually abused, emotionally abused, and physically assaulted. In the early 80s, I was the first to openly talk about this abuse on what became the listserv. My action influenced the outcome of the Denver Reunion, turning it into making an apology to our youth.
On Dec 7, 2025, at 3:25 PM, Herman Greene via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
My son Nathan was in the order for the first two years of his life. One year in New Orleans and one year at Kemper. In New Orleans after he was a few weeks old we found an infant-care facility in a Catholic charity and took him there each day. There were around cribs and there was little programming. During his year at Kemper he was in the pre-school and I believe my then wife Joy was in charge of the pre-school.
He is now 53. He has had anger issues and emotional swings. He says he has long had trust issues with me and feels I haven't seen him. He is undergoing therapy and is a few weeks in. He is married and has two children. He is in the midst of mid-life crisis.
He began asking me about the Order. He found this article in the NY Times from 1968. https://www.nytimes.com/1968/11/09/archives/new-religious-cult-grows-despite.... It describes EI as a cult. He then found David Marshall's book online and read it. He feels he has found a key to his issues of "abandonment"(?). Unlike other children who grew up and can reflect for better and worse on their experience as EI children, Nate has no direct memories of his time in EI.
He keeps pressing me on whether EI was a cult and whether Joe Matthews was of very bad character. In tears he thanks me for leaving the Order in August 1975 when he was almost two.
He also read David's blog about whether Good Intentions make up for Collateral damage.
I explain to him the good things we did and I also acknowledge the "collateral damage." I acknowledge that the Order had aspects of a cult, though it was not the Moonies or Jim Jones (I don't mention these others because I don't want to associate the Order with them).
I think about how psychologists write about the importance of the first two years of life and try to imagine what influence that period had on him. He was never separated from Joy and I and I always thought he was happy in his early years. I tell him about how many adults cared for him and adored him.
I know there has been a group for Order Children. I wonder if anyone would be willing and interested in talking to Nate (his nickname is Naechi) about the Order and children in the Order.
Herman
From: OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net>> on behalf of Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:10:05 PM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Cc: Don Bushman <onedonbushman@gmail.com <mailto:onedonbushman@gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you experienced. I believe you.
What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long, many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of them.
I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we were immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t ask the hard questions soon enough.
I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability, not just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more fully now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness.
Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here.
Don Bushman
828-292-9696
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Dear Shelley,
OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior.
I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth. But also appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly would not have been available to him at that youthful time.
For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member, was charged by JWM to write the Polity Document. And in that work, we sifted through our collective living experience to name those 24. Who knows, there may have been more?
What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear: this was not anywhere close to being acceptable.
I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India. But I am horrified that you experienced that.
Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest.
With love and respect,
Marilyn
On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
This is an interesting intellectual, hypothetical, philosophical discussion.
If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.
Shelley Hahn
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the specimen who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.
Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation?
I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today.
And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage.
Cheryl Hood
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process.
I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege.
Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep.
FWIW.
Bill
From: Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com <mailto:randycw1938@gmail.com>> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Cc: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net <mailto:w.schlesinger@pvida.net>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder.
Randy Williams
On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g> El Paso, TX 79905 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g> (915) 490-6148 Cell
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumenical Institute Colleagues,
Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
<Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
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Ken, Thank you for sharing your journey with your sons in the Order. I remember when you and Paige were on my Academy staff on the Westside. Blessings to you for sharing your truth. Sharon On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 7:18 AM Ken Fisher via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
This is a slightly edited version of what I sent Herman yesterday.
Hi Herman,
My son, Ajit, now Shel Sampa was born in Madison Wi. in September ’72.
In the spring of ’73, I was assigned to Bombay and did not see him again until 18 months later when Joy Thomas brought him over to Bombay. He was now almost 2 years old.
My wife Paige was supposed to bring Ajit and join me in the summer of ’73, when she had completed her engineering degree and U of Wisc. Instead, she decided not to finish. With the money that I had raised for her ticket, she decided to take a 3 months ‘research’ trip through Western Europe, Scandinavia, the Middle East and Afghanistan - before getting to Bombay. She arrived in the fall of ’73.
For three months Ajit lived with her parents in Toronto, and then for 6 months lived in the Student House.
Barely weeks after he arrived, Paige and I were assigned to separate ITIs for six weeks.
Ajit was left in Hyderabad, with A.M. Joseph’s family. By now, he could speak English and some Hindi. He reports that he has a bodily memory of being sexually abused while in Hyderabad.
Partly because of Paige’s feminism, wanting to take assignments on her own – strongly blocked by the priors; and my being at odds with Ray Spencer, being lied to and manipulated, we were assigned back to Chicago to get ‘reprogrammed’ with a 3-month assignment to The Academy.
In our 16 years in the O:E, we each did 8 years wage earning. After the Academy, I was assigned to Development. At the beginning of Summer ’75, almost 4-year old Ajit was assigned to Summer Camp in Central Wisconsin. In the middle of that 3-month period, I did drive north to see briefly see him at camp. Son Aidan was born in April of ’76 just before we were assigned to Houston.
The best times for my sons was in Brussels with as many as 8 kids in the house. Tim & Rose Casswell were superb with children.
Ajit, at 53, has had a number of jobs in many different locations. For four years he worked in Mexico starting as an English teacher and ending as a financial consultant to Arthur Anderson working in Central America. Now, he owns and manages 2 properties. Surinder is a special needs elementary school teacher.
Ajit suffered significantly from attachment disorder. It took him decades to become effective in his work relations, expecting them to deliver him community that would provide emotional security when that was simply not its purpose. This still impacts him. He is a highly effective and loving father of three boys, two of which are the victims of fetal alcohol syndrome.
Aidan, 50 next April, has had many careers. He made a million in high tech, owned a dance troupe and was its lead dancer, and was a world champion gamer (Magic, the Gathering). But the traumas of his childhood drove him into years of therapy. Now he is the director of a School of Therapy in Montreal. Core Energetics is world-wide. John Slicker has been associated with it. Aidan has clients all over, but mainly in Montreal.
Both have wives 13 years their junior. Aidan and Laura have 4 children. Shel Sampa and Surinder have a son and two adopted Inuit (Eskimo) boys. They are still trying to have a second child of their own.
They all live modestly. Both sons work mostly in French.
Yet, as a carry-over from the Brussels House, they live 'communally’. While the families are financially independent, they live across the street from one another in a quiet residential area in Montreal. They hang out with Brian and Marguerite’s (my brother and sister-in-law) kids and their kids. They are a clan. The seven kids of my sons move freely between houses. To a significant degree, they are all co-parented. In that the four parents have spent years in therapy and still freely engage that resource, the children are incredibly sane and healthy.
Their motto is generational trauma ends here.
With love and hugs,
Ken
P.S. In the O:E, with respect for confidentiality, I am aware of many children who were sexually abused, emotionally abused, and physically assaulted. In the early 80s, I was the first to openly talk about this abuse on what became the listserv. My action influenced the outcome of the Denver Reunion, turning it into making an apology to our youth.
On Dec 7, 2025, at 3:25 PM, Herman Greene via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
My son Nathan was in the order for the first two years of his life. One year in New Orleans and one year at Kemper. In New Orleans after he was a few weeks old we found an infant-care facility in a Catholic charity and took him there each day. There were around cribs and there was little programming. During his year at Kemper he was in the pre-school and I believe my then wife Joy was in charge of the pre-school.
He is now 53. He has had anger issues and emotional swings. He says he has long had trust issues with me and feels I haven't seen him. He is undergoing therapy and is a few weeks in. He is married and has two children. He is in the midst of mid-life crisis.
He began asking me about the Order. He found this article in the NY Times from 1968. https://www.nytimes.com/1968/11/09/archives/new-religious-cult-grows-despite.... It describes EI as a cult. He then found David Marshall's book online and read it. He feels he has found a key to his issues of "abandonment"(?). Unlike other children who grew up and can reflect for better and worse on their experience as EI children, Nate has no direct memories of his time in EI.
He keeps pressing me on whether EI was a cult and whether Joe Matthews was of very bad character. In tears he thanks me for leaving the Order in August 1975 when he was almost two.
He also read David's blog about whether Good Intentions make up for Collateral damage.
I explain to him the good things we did and I also acknowledge the "collateral damage." I acknowledge that the Order had aspects of a cult, though it was not the Moonies or Jim Jones (I don't mention these others because I don't want to associate the Order with them).
I think about how psychologists write about the importance of the first two years of life and try to imagine what influence that period had on him. He was never separated from Joy and I and I always thought he was happy in his early years. I tell him about how many adults cared for him and adored him.
I know there has been a group for Order Children. I wonder if anyone would be willing and interested in talking to Nate (his nickname is Naechi) about the Order and children in the Order.
Herman
------------------------------ *From:* OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Sent:* Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:10:05 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Don Bushman <onedonbushman@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you experienced. I believe you.
What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long, many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of them.
I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we were immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t ask the hard questions soon enough.
I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability, not just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more fully now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness.
Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here.
Don Bushman
828-292-9696
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dear Shelley,
OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior.
I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth. But also appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly would not have been available to him at that youthful time.
For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member, was charged by JWM to write the Polity Document. And in that work, we sifted through our collective living experience to name those 24. Who knows, there may have been more?
What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear: *this was not anywhere close to being acceptable.*
I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India. But *I am horrified that you experienced that.*
Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest.
With love and respect,
Marilyn
On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
This is an interesting intellectual, hypothetical, philosophical discussion.
If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.
Shelley Hahn
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the specimen who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.
Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation?
I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today.
And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage.
Cheryl Hood
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process.
I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege.
Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep.
FWIW.
Bill
*From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com> *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder.
Randy Williams
On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
El Paso, TX 79905 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
(915) 490-6148 Cell
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumenical Institute Colleagues,
Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
<Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
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Herman, Thank you for sharing your son's struggle with his past. I am hopeful the sharing and connections with others has helped soothe his wounds -- and yours. With love, Sharon On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 2:16 PM Sharon Fisher <saf1220@gmail.com> wrote:
Ken, Thank you for sharing your journey with your sons in the Order. I remember when you and Paige were on my Academy staff on the Westside. Blessings to you for sharing your truth. Sharon
On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 7:18 AM Ken Fisher via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
This is a slightly edited version of what I sent Herman yesterday.
Hi Herman,
My son, Ajit, now Shel Sampa was born in Madison Wi. in September ’72.
In the spring of ’73, I was assigned to Bombay and did not see him again until 18 months later when Joy Thomas brought him over to Bombay. He was now almost 2 years old.
My wife Paige was supposed to bring Ajit and join me in the summer of ’73, when she had completed her engineering degree and U of Wisc. Instead, she decided not to finish. With the money that I had raised for her ticket, she decided to take a 3 months ‘research’ trip through Western Europe, Scandinavia, the Middle East and Afghanistan - before getting to Bombay. She arrived in the fall of ’73.
For three months Ajit lived with her parents in Toronto, and then for 6 months lived in the Student House.
Barely weeks after he arrived, Paige and I were assigned to separate ITIs for six weeks.
Ajit was left in Hyderabad, with A.M. Joseph’s family. By now, he could speak English and some Hindi. He reports that he has a bodily memory of being sexually abused while in Hyderabad.
Partly because of Paige’s feminism, wanting to take assignments on her own – strongly blocked by the priors; and my being at odds with Ray Spencer, being lied to and manipulated, we were assigned back to Chicago to get ‘reprogrammed’ with a 3-month assignment to The Academy.
In our 16 years in the O:E, we each did 8 years wage earning. After the Academy, I was assigned to Development. At the beginning of Summer ’75, almost 4-year old Ajit was assigned to Summer Camp in Central Wisconsin. In the middle of that 3-month period, I did drive north to see briefly see him at camp. Son Aidan was born in April of ’76 just before we were assigned to Houston.
The best times for my sons was in Brussels with as many as 8 kids in the house. Tim & Rose Casswell were superb with children.
Ajit, at 53, has had a number of jobs in many different locations. For four years he worked in Mexico starting as an English teacher and ending as a financial consultant to Arthur Anderson working in Central America. Now, he owns and manages 2 properties. Surinder is a special needs elementary school teacher.
Ajit suffered significantly from attachment disorder. It took him decades to become effective in his work relations, expecting them to deliver him community that would provide emotional security when that was simply not its purpose. This still impacts him. He is a highly effective and loving father of three boys, two of which are the victims of fetal alcohol syndrome.
Aidan, 50 next April, has had many careers. He made a million in high tech, owned a dance troupe and was its lead dancer, and was a world champion gamer (Magic, the Gathering). But the traumas of his childhood drove him into years of therapy. Now he is the director of a School of Therapy in Montreal. Core Energetics is world-wide. John Slicker has been associated with it. Aidan has clients all over, but mainly in Montreal.
Both have wives 13 years their junior. Aidan and Laura have 4 children. Shel Sampa and Surinder have a son and two adopted Inuit (Eskimo) boys. They are still trying to have a second child of their own.
They all live modestly. Both sons work mostly in French.
Yet, as a carry-over from the Brussels House, they live 'communally’. While the families are financially independent, they live across the street from one another in a quiet residential area in Montreal. They hang out with Brian and Marguerite’s (my brother and sister-in-law) kids and their kids. They are a clan. The seven kids of my sons move freely between houses. To a significant degree, they are all co-parented. In that the four parents have spent years in therapy and still freely engage that resource, the children are incredibly sane and healthy.
Their motto is generational trauma ends here.
With love and hugs,
Ken
P.S. In the O:E, with respect for confidentiality, I am aware of many children who were sexually abused, emotionally abused, and physically assaulted. In the early 80s, I was the first to openly talk about this abuse on what became the listserv. My action influenced the outcome of the Denver Reunion, turning it into making an apology to our youth.
On Dec 7, 2025, at 3:25 PM, Herman Greene via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
My son Nathan was in the order for the first two years of his life. One year in New Orleans and one year at Kemper. In New Orleans after he was a few weeks old we found an infant-care facility in a Catholic charity and took him there each day. There were around cribs and there was little programming. During his year at Kemper he was in the pre-school and I believe my then wife Joy was in charge of the pre-school.
He is now 53. He has had anger issues and emotional swings. He says he has long had trust issues with me and feels I haven't seen him. He is undergoing therapy and is a few weeks in. He is married and has two children. He is in the midst of mid-life crisis.
He began asking me about the Order. He found this article in the NY Times from 1968. https://www.nytimes.com/1968/11/09/archives/new-religious-cult-grows-despite.... It describes EI as a cult. He then found David Marshall's book online and read it. He feels he has found a key to his issues of "abandonment"(?). Unlike other children who grew up and can reflect for better and worse on their experience as EI children, Nate has no direct memories of his time in EI.
He keeps pressing me on whether EI was a cult and whether Joe Matthews was of very bad character. In tears he thanks me for leaving the Order in August 1975 when he was almost two.
He also read David's blog about whether Good Intentions make up for Collateral damage.
I explain to him the good things we did and I also acknowledge the "collateral damage." I acknowledge that the Order had aspects of a cult, though it was not the Moonies or Jim Jones (I don't mention these others because I don't want to associate the Order with them).
I think about how psychologists write about the importance of the first two years of life and try to imagine what influence that period had on him. He was never separated from Joy and I and I always thought he was happy in his early years. I tell him about how many adults cared for him and adored him.
I know there has been a group for Order Children. I wonder if anyone would be willing and interested in talking to Nate (his nickname is Naechi) about the Order and children in the Order.
Herman
------------------------------ *From:* OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Don Bushman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Sent:* Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:10:05 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Don Bushman <onedonbushman@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you experienced. I believe you.
What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long, many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of them.
I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we were immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t ask the hard questions soon enough.
I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability, not just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more fully now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness.
Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here.
Don Bushman
828-292-9696
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dear Shelley,
OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior.
I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth. But also appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly would not have been available to him at that youthful time.
For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member, was charged by JWM to write the Polity Document. And in that work, we sifted through our collective living experience to name those 24. Who knows, there may have been more?
What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear: *this was not anywhere close to being acceptable.*
I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India. But *I am horrified that you experienced that.*
Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest.
With love and respect,
Marilyn
On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
This is an interesting intellectual, hypothetical, philosophical discussion.
If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.
Shelley Hahn
On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the specimen who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.
Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is currently in vogue will produce a better generation?
I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off the mark than many other popular theories today.
And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral damage.
Cheryl Hood
On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the act of repentance. That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process. I remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to replace all the male gender language in our songs. We’ve discovered and turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the treatment of children (ours and others) is no different. It is a constant process.
I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white supremacy privilege.
Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally translates as ‘new mind.’ It isn’t being guilty or sorry. It’s doing the change that HRN discusses. It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.” T – Total Depravity. Everybody’s screwed up. Deal with it. U – Unconditional Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be responsible. L- Limited Atonement. Some people ‘get it.’ Some don’t. And you can’t tell the difference. I – irresistible Grace. We are all beloved. P – Perseverance of the Saints. Once you wake up, you can’t go back to sleep. You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you can’t go back to sleep.
FWIW.
Bill
*From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com> *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>; William Schlesinger <w.schlesinger@pvida.net> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral Damage?
Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents. What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to ponder.
Randy Williams
On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
Bill Schlesinger
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On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumenical Institute Colleagues,
Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25) have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
<Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV>
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participants (15)
-
Beret Griffith -
Blase Sands -
Cheryl Hood -
David Marshall -
Don Bushman -
Ed Feldmanis -
Herman Greene -
James Wiegel -
Ken Fisher -
Mari Crocker -
Randy Williams -
Sharon Fisher -
Shelley Hahn -
w.schlesinger＠pvida.net -
William Schlesinger