Beret, Chalk one up for senility…our video was of Bilbao, not Oaxtapec! From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of John Epps via OE Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 9:28 AM To: Beret Griffith <beretgriffith@gmail.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Chronological History - Our Common Future Oaxtepec Hello Beret Thanks for your good work on the archives, and for your questions about Oaxtapec. I’ve scanned my files and discovered that memory will have to suffice. I do have some memories of the event that may be worth recording. First, the place was gorgeous. However it was selected, it was an excellent choice. Secondly, there were at least three “outside” notable worthies as guest speakers: Harrison Owens, Jean Houston, and David Campbell. Third is a story: I was assigned to be on the regulatory to plan the event. Karen Snyder and LeDona Wagner were also on that team, along with others who I can’t remember. We arrived on sight a week in advance and got to work. Most of us had experience of planning Priors Councils and Summer Programs, so it was sort of a familiar task, though challenges were significant: dealing with the dispersed location of the housing and the incorporation of the guests into the program. We worked morning til night in dialogue with the Panchayat and finally came up with a detailed design that seemed to incorporate the activities and dynamics we all wanted to happen. Sorry, but I don’t have a copy of that design. Anyway, at the appropriate time, we presented our design to the priory for their modification before finalization. It had assigned times, places, teams, and activities in what we considered a trans-rational format that would get us where we wanted to go. Harrison Owens, who was invited to sit in on the meeting erupted with objections at such structures. This was before he published Open Space, but he was already committed to a structure-less process, and recommended that we ditch our plans and let happen whatever would. As a group wedded to intentionality, that seemed heretical (to me), but that’s essentially what happened. Of course, the guests had scheduled times for their presentations, but beyond that, our carefully crafted plans went down the tubes! 😊. Later, during the week Harrison and I met on the porch of our cabin for pre-breakfast coffee and informal chats with cordial collegiality, though neither of us managed to convince the other of the effectiveness of our respective dynamics. Fourth, and this is not for publication, the discussion and decision about dissolution of the Order was never in any of the pre-plans. We had to leave the conference a day early, but nothing about such a move had been publicly discussed before then. The later announcement came as a complete surprise and probably contributed to my “Theology of Surprise” book. What’s happened since has obviously been beyond our wildest expectations, but at the time it came as a bolt out of the blue. I hope you find these memories useful as background information. John On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Beret Griffith via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote: Wendell, I know you checked for Oaxtapec documents. Wondering if you checked Frank's drive for the video? Colleagues, Do any of you have a copy of that Sunny Walker and Rick Jones filmed as a report of the event? Thanks, Beret On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 5:56 PM, Beret Griffith <beretgriffith@gmail.com <mailto:beretgriffith@gmail.com> > wrote: Perhaps the three of you can pool your memories and come up with Oaxtapec information and stories. Beret On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Dennis Jennings <dennisjennings1@gmail.com <mailto:dennisjennings1@gmail.com> > wrote: Mary Warren Moffat was in attendance at Oaxtapec. As I recall, she fell and broke her leg while there. Nevertheless she is known for having a great memory about these events. Al Lingo was there also. He likely shepherded Andrew Young. I would probably need to be sitting with a group of people to help stimulate my memory of events. I am pretty sure I do not have any written records. Dennis On Jun 10, 2017, at 4:59 PM, Beret Griffith <beretgriffith@gmail.com <mailto:beretgriffith@gmail.com> > wrote: Hello again colleagues, There is very little information on the Chronological History re: Our Common Future Conference in Oaxtepec in the archives, so very little in the ChronHist. There are a couple of brochures and very LARGE MP3 files of Andrew Young's talk. (via Wendell Refior) now available on Wedgeblade.net <http://Wedgeblade.net> . (see link at the end of this message). And, Oaxtepec represents a huge turn for the organization. It would be very good to have more details on the event and outcome. Mary Laura suggested those of you individually named above as colleagues she recalled were at the conference. Glenda Long Eggerling looked at the timeline and wondered if there is more information surrounding the Order being called out of being at the Oaxtepec. Glenda's questions: 1. Is there information about the gathering? 2. Who led conference? 3. What was written about dissolving the Order? Is there a document declaring the structures of the Order being called out of being? 4. Role of the Panchayat? 5. When was the Panchayat called out of being? 6. Who was on the last Panchayat? 7. What were the practics of letting people know, manage the staff centers, etc, etc.? Below is the link to the Chronological History 1952-1988 to see the original text in the document. You cannot add material in this part of the document. https://wedgeblade.net/files/archives_assets/20197.pdf Go to page 110 to see text. If you have changes please send to myself beretgriffith@gmail.com <mailto:beretgriffith@gmail.com> & David Dunn dmdunn1@gmail.com <mailto:dmdunn1@gmail.com> and additions will be made to the text. Thank you! Beret & David ________________________________________________________- Andrew Young - Part 1 ICAI Address to ICAI Summer Conference in Mexico City Part 1 https://wedgeblade.net/files/archives_assets/20060.mp3 ICAI Address to ICAI Summer Conference in Mexico City Part 2 https://wedgeblade.net/files/archives_assets/20061.mp3 -- Dennis Jennings, Certified ToP Facilitator/Mentor Trainer Technology of Participation (ToP) Network 4750 North Sheridan Road Chicago, IL 60640 Tel Office 773/769-9266 <tel:(773)%20769-9266> Mobile 773-729-6184 <tel:(773)%20729-6184> dennisjennings1@gmail.com <mailto:dennisjennings1@gmail.com> Find course dates and register for trainings at http://top-training.net <http://top-training.net/> ToP Community of Practice - FREE First Monday of the month, 11:00 AM -12:30 PM AICP CM units: 14.5 CM for ToP Facilitation Methods and ToP Strategic Planning 13.5 CHES-MCHES hours available for Certified Health Ed Spec for TFM _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

What I recall of Harrison Owen is his total orientation was about "self-organizing communities" which he always tried to demonstrate at his events (I attended workshops with him at a couple of conferences 25 or more years ago). Everything was bottom-up, and I think he would have been about 180 degrees different from our pre-planned, facilitated events, such as Town Meeting or Strategic Planning. Where he might have crossed over into some common territory with us was in valuing the group's wisdom, feeling it to be stronger than that of a brilliant individual.* I wasn't there either in Oaxtapec in October '88. Thanks, Beret and John and others for your work on this part of archiving our OE/ICA history. --Joyce Bonafield-Pierce *groups I participated in at these other venues did actually lead into group wisdom, and a surprising level of organization, yet I can't say I learned anything about a 'method' in these events. On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:35 PM, W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

Beret and colleagues, Just a brief note of thanks to John Epps and a comment. First (and obviously), I wasn't there. Nevertheless... Second (and more obviously), Harrison Owen (without the final 's') violated every professional boundary I can think of for an outside 'guest' presenter when he insisted on upending the format and throwing out the structure of the meeting (without being invited to do so). One might conceivably contend (though I would have no basis to suggest this, since I wasn't there) that the highly structured 'lock-step' operating mode of the Order had the unintended effect of screening out or avoiding some elements of reality, which might have something to do with what some could call a 'death spiral,' resulting in a decision to call the Order out of being--an unplanned outcome. According to John. So maybe Harrison Owen was a prophetic voice (more or less), perhaps unintentionally, to disrupt the Order's 'lock-step' way of being in the world. Despite the reality of crossing all kinds of professional boundaries. Who knew? What do you think, guys? Marshall Jones

On Monday, June 12, 2017 9:05 AM, Sunny Walker via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

Beret, Chalk one up for senility…our video was of Bilbao, not Oaxtapec!

*From:* OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] *On Behalf Of *John Epps via OE *Sent:* Monday, June 12, 2017 9:28 AM *To:* Beret Griffith <beretgriffith@gmail.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Chronological History - Our Common Future Oaxtepec

Hello Beret Thanks for your good work on the archives, and for your questions about Oaxtapec. I’ve scanned my files and discovered that memory will have to suffice. I do have some memories of the event that may be worth recording. *First,* the place was gorgeous. However it was selected, it was an excellent choice. *Secondly*, there were at least three “outside” notable worthies as guest speakers: Harrison Owens, Jean Houston, and David Campbell. *Third* is a story: I was assigned to be on the regulatory to plan the event. Karen Snyder and LeDona Wagner were also on that team, along with others who I can’t remember. We arrived on sight a week in advance and got to work. Most of us had experience of planning Priors Councils and Summer Programs, so it was sort of a familiar task, though challenges were significant: dealing with the dispersed location of the housing and the incorporation of the guests into the program. We worked morning til night in dialogue with the Panchayat and finally came up with a detailed design that seemed to incorporate the activities and dynamics we all wanted to happen. Sorry, but I don’t have a copy of that design. Anyway, at the appropriate time, we presented our design to the priory for their modification before finalization. It had assigned times, places, teams, and activities in what we considered a trans-rational format that would get us where we wanted to go. Harrison Owens, who was invited to sit in on the meeting erupted with objections at such structures. This was before he published *Open Space,* but he was already committed to a structure-less process, and recommended that we ditch our plans and let happen whatever would. As a group wedded to intentionality, that seemed heretical (to me), but that’s essentially what happened. Of course, the guests had scheduled times for their presentations, but beyond that, our carefully crafted plans went down the tubes! 😊. Later, during the week Harrison and I met on the porch of our cabin for pre-breakfast coffee and informal chats with cordial collegiality, though neither of us managed to convince the other of the effectiveness of our respective dynamics. *Fourth*, and this is not for publication, the discussion and decision about dissolution of the Order was never in any of the pre-plans. We had to leave the conference a day early, but nothing about such a move had been publicly discussed before then. The later announcement came as a complete surprise and probably contributed to my “Theology of Surprise” book. What’s happened since has obviously been beyond our wildest expectations, but at the time it came as a bolt out of the blue.

I hope you find these memories useful as background information.

John

On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Beret Griffith via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

Wendell, I know you checked for Oaxtapec documents. Wondering if you checked Frank's drive for the video?

Colleagues, Do any of you have a copy of that Sunny Walker and Rick Jones filmed as a report of the event?

Thanks, Beret

On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 5:56 PM, Beret Griffith <beretgriffith@gmail.com> wrote:

Perhaps the three of you can pool your memories and come up with Oaxtapec information and stories.

Beret

On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Dennis Jennings < dennisjennings1@gmail.com> wrote:

Mary Warren Moffat was in attendance at Oaxtapec. As I recall, she fell and broke her leg while there. Nevertheless she is known for having a great memory about these events. Al Lingo was there also. He likely shepherded Andrew Young.

I would probably need to be sitting with a group of people to help stimulate my memory of events. I am pretty sure I do not have any written records.

Dennis

On Jun 10, 2017, at 4:59 PM, Beret Griffith <beretgriffith@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello again colleagues,

There is very little information on the Chronological History re: Our Common Future Conference in Oaxtepec in the archives, so very little in the ChronHist. There are a couple of brochures and very LARGE MP3 files of Andrew Young's talk. (via Wendell Refior) now available on Wedgeblade.net <http://wedgeblade.net/>. (see link at the end of this message).

And, Oaxtepec represents a huge turn for the organization. It would be very good to have more details on the event and outcome.

Mary Laura suggested those of you individually named above as colleagues she recalled were at the conference.

Glenda Long Eggerling looked at the timeline and wondered if there is more information surrounding the Order being called out of being at the Oaxtepec.

Glenda's questions: 1. Is there information about the gathering? 2. Who led conference? 3. What was written about dissolving the Order? Is there a document declaring the structures of the Order being called out of being? 4. Role of the Panchayat? 5. When was the Panchayat called out of being? 6. Who was on the last Panchayat? 7. What were the practics of letting people know, manage the staff centers, etc, etc.? Below is the link to the Chronological History 1952-1988 to see the original text in the document. You cannot add material in this part of the document.

https://wedgeblade.net/files/archives_assets/20197.pdf

Go to page 110 to see text. If you have changes please send to myself beretgriffith@gmail.com & David Dunn dmdunn1@gmail.com and additions will be made to the text.

Thank you! Beret & David

________________________________________________________-

Andrew Young - Part 1 ICAI Address to ICAI Summer Conference in Mexico City Part 1

https://wedgeblade.net/files/archives_assets/20060.mp3

ICAI Address to ICAI Summer Conference in Mexico City Part 2

https://wedgeblade.net/files/archives_assets/20061.mp3

-- *Dennis Jennings, Certified ToP Facilitator/Mentor Trainer*

*Technology of Participation (ToP) Network* *4750 North Sheridan Road* *Chicago, IL 60640* *Tel Office 773/769-9266 Mobile 773-729-6184* *dennisjennings1@gmail.com <dennisjennings1@gmail.com>*

*Find course dates and register for trainings at * http://top-training.net *ToP Community of Practice - FREE* First Monday of the month, 11:00 AM -12:30 PM AICP CM units: 14.5 CM for ToP Facilitation Methods and ToP Strategic Planning 13.5 CHES-MCHES hours available for Certified Health Ed Spec for TFM

_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

Sherwood, your description calls to mind the wisdom of applying "appropriate technology." Or as I've often heard you say, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I will freely admit, I sure love my hammer. But I've also found the marketplace format has its useful applications. Susan Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid On Jun 12, 2017 7:20 PM, Sherwood Shankland via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: I was there, and also talked at length with Harrison about his emering open space method. One affirmation he offered was that "You guys are amazing...so committed to your work...and in my view, you are much better than your methods." This was kind of a backhanded compliment in my view...over against our "historic no-bodies" mindset where THE METHODS ruled the day and our insistance on fully structured sessions etc. I often wonder why Open Space has spread world-wide and is widely used while ToP is still one of the best held secrets in many circles...exceptions to be sure...but not generally known and used. What happened in Oaxtepec was a blend of the two. Open Space marketplace and formation of topic areas and then the use of consensus workshop to pull the dialogue together. Worked quite well in my experience. I felt that Harrison was pressing his own research on OS, but remained collegial even with our differing views of group process. Yes the suprise of calling the Order out of being was a jolting experience...felt to me like the metaphor of smashing of kitchen utensils, plates and cups every 52 years in the Aztek tradition suddenly happened! And there we were and here we are. Wow. Praise be, nothing left but gratitude for the incredible journey and our many colleagues along the way. In appreciation, Sherwood (70 in July :-). ________________________________ From: "Joy Bonafield via OE" <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: "W. J." <synergi@yahoo.com>, "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 3:46:48 PM Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Chronological History - Our Common Future Oaxtepec What I recall of Harrison Owen is his total orientation was about "self-organizing communities" which he always tried to demonstrate at his events (I attended workshops with him at a couple of conferences 25 or more years ago). Everything was bottom-up, and I think he would have been about 180 degrees different from our pre-planned, facilitated events, such as Town Meeting or Strategic Planning. Where he might have crossed over into some common territory with us was in valuing the group's wisdom, feeling it to be stronger than that of a brilliant individual.* I wasn't there either in Oaxtapec in October '88. Thanks, Beret and John and others for your work on this part of archiving our OE/ICA history. --Joyce Bonafield-Pierce *groups I participated in at these other venues did actually lead into group wisdom, and a surprising level of organization, yet I can't say I learned anything about a 'method' in these events. On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:35 PM, W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Beret and colleagues, Just a brief note of thanks to John Epps and a comment. First (and obviously), I wasn't there. Nevertheless... Second (and more obviously), Harrison Owen (without the final 's') violated every professional boundary I can think of for an outside 'guest' presenter when he insisted on upending the format and throwing out the structure of the meeting (without being invited to do so). One might conceivably contend (though I would have no basis to suggest this, since I wasn't there) that the highly structured 'lock-step' operating mode of the Order had the unintended effect of screening out or avoiding some elements of reality, which might have something to do with what some could call a 'death spiral,' resulting in a decision to call the Order out of being--an unplanned outcome. According to John. So maybe Harrison Owen was a prophetic voice (more or less), perhaps unintentionally, to disrupt the Order's 'lock-step' way of being in the world. Despite the reality of crossing all kinds of professional boundaries. Who knew? What do you think, guys? Marshall Jones On Monday, June 12, 2017 9:05 AM, Sunny Walker via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Beret, Chalk one up for senility…our video was of Bilbao, not Oaxtapec! From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net>] On Behalf Of John Epps via OE Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 9:28 AM To: Beret Griffith <beretgriffith@gmail.com<mailto:beretgriffith@gmail.com>>; Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Chronological History - Our Common Future Oaxtepec Hello Beret Thanks for your good work on the archives, and for your questions about Oaxtapec. I’ve scanned my files and discovered that memory will have to suffice. I do have some memories of the event that may be worth recording. First, the place was gorgeous. However it was selected, it was an excellent choice. Secondly, there were at least three “outside” notable worthies as guest speakers: Harrison Owens, Jean Houston, and David Campbell. Third is a story: I was assigned to be on the regulatory to plan the event. Karen Snyder and LeDona Wagner were also on that team, along with others who I can’t remember. We arrived on sight a week in advance and got to work. Most of us had experience of planning Priors Councils and Summer Programs, so it was sort of a familiar task, though challenges were significant: dealing with the dispersed location of the housing and the incorporation of the guests into the program. We worked morning til night in dialogue with the Panchayat and finally came up with a detailed design that seemed to incorporate the activities and dynamics we all wanted to happen. Sorry, but I don’t have a copy of that design. Anyway, at the appropriate time, we presented our design to the priory for their modification before finalization. It had assigned times, places, teams, and activities in what we considered a trans-rational format that would get us where we wanted to go. Harrison Owens, who was invited to sit in on the meeting erupted with objections at such structures. This was before he published Open Space, but he was already committed to a structure-less process, and recommended that we ditch our plans and let happen whatever would. As a group wedded to intentionality, that seemed heretical (to me), but that’s essentially what happened. Of course, the guests had scheduled times for their presentations, but beyond that, our carefully crafted plans went down the tubes! 😊. Later, during the week Harrison and I met on the porch of our cabin for pre-breakfast coffee and informal chats with cordial collegiality, though neither of us managed to convince the other of the effectiveness of our respective dynamics. Fourth, and this is not for publication, the discussion and decision about dissolution of the Order was never in any of the pre-plans. We had to leave the conference a day early, but nothing about such a move had been publicly discussed before then. The later announcement came as a complete surprise and probably contributed to my “Theology of Surprise” book. What’s happened since has obviously been beyond our wildest expectations, but at the time it came as a bolt out of the blue. I hope you find these memories useful as background information. John On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Beret Griffith via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Wendell, I know you checked for Oaxtapec documents. Wondering if you checked Frank's drive for the video? Colleagues, Do any of you have a copy of that Sunny Walker and Rick Jones filmed as a report of the event? Thanks, Beret On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 5:56 PM, Beret Griffith <beretgriffith@gmail.com<mailto:beretgriffith@gmail.com>> wrote: Perhaps the three of you can pool your memories and come up with Oaxtapec information and stories. Beret On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Dennis Jennings <dennisjennings1@gmail.com<mailto:dennisjennings1@gmail.com>> wrote: Mary Warren Moffat was in attendance at Oaxtapec. As I recall, she fell and broke her leg while there. Nevertheless she is known for having a great memory about these events. Al Lingo was there also. He likely shepherded Andrew Young. I would probably need to be sitting with a group of people to help stimulate my memory of events. I am pretty sure I do not have any written records. Dennis On Jun 10, 2017, at 4:59 PM, Beret Griffith <beretgriffith@gmail.com<mailto:beretgriffith@gmail.com>> wrote: Hello again colleagues, There is very little information on the Chronological History re: Our Common Future Conference in Oaxtepec in the archives, so very little in the ChronHist. There are a couple of brochures and very LARGE MP3 files of Andrew Young's talk. (via Wendell Refior) now available on Wedgeblade.net<http://wedgeblade.net/>. (see link at the end of this message). And, Oaxtepec represents a huge turn for the organization. It would be very good to have more details on the event and outcome. Mary Laura suggested those of you individually named above as colleagues she recalled were at the conference. Glenda Long Eggerling looked at the timeline and wondered if there is more information surrounding the Order being called out of being at the Oaxtepec. Glenda's questions: 1. Is there information about the gathering? 2. Who led conference? 3. What was written about dissolving the Order? Is there a document declaring the structures of the Order being called out of being? 4. Role of the Panchayat? 5. When was the Panchayat called out of being? 6. Who was on the last Panchayat? 7. What were the practics of letting people know, manage the staff centers, etc, etc.? Below is the link to the Chronological History 1952-1988 to see the original text in the document. You cannot add material in this part of the document. https://wedgeblade.net/files/archives_assets/20197.pdf Go to page 110 to see text. If you have changes please send to myself beretgriffith@gmail.com<mailto:beretgriffith@gmail.com> & David Dunn dmdunn1@gmail.com<mailto:dmdunn1@gmail.com> and additions will be made to the text. Thank you! Beret & David ________________________________________________________- Andrew Young - Part 1 ICAI Address to ICAI Summer Conference in Mexico City Part 1 https://wedgeblade.net/files/archives_assets/20060.mp3 ICAI Address to ICAI Summer Conference in Mexico City Part 2 https://wedgeblade.net/files/archives_assets/20061.mp3 -- Dennis Jennings, Certified ToP Facilitator/Mentor Trainer Technology of Participation (ToP) Network 4750 North Sheridan Road Chicago, IL 60640 Tel Office 773/769-9266 Mobile 773-729-6184 dennisjennings1@gmail.com<mailto:dennisjennings1@gmail.com> Find course dates and register for trainings at http://top-training.net<http://top-training.net/> ToP Community of Practice - FREE First Monday of the month, 11:00 AM -12:30 PM AICP CM units: 14.5 CM for ToP Facilitation Methods and ToP Strategic Planning 13.5 CHES-MCHES hours available for Certified Health Ed Spec for TFM _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net